Why would a loving god make us lesser creatures?

[blase6]

Of course we are “lesser” creatures. God cannot create something as high as himself (which would be a copy of God).

 

[fhansen]

Geez, I sleep and the thread practically doubles in size. I didn’t read this all because it’s TLDR and started to sound the same, but again you’re thinking within the confines of this universe’s logic. Of course God could defy it - he can be three and one at the same time, be man and god, etc.
Also, he didn’t find a way to save us by Jesus; he MADE the rule that he had to “sacrifice” himself to himself to “save” us from the hell he sends us to if we don’t follow him. That’s what it is: if there were really two equal choices (to believe/serve or not to), one wouldn’t end in eternal torment.

I believe it could be more correct to consider that God defines logic because He is logic, a rational being, and therefore in His case would Himself constitute the norm for logic. Going by what we can observe we’d have no reason to think otherwise. In this case, even He couldn’t undefine logic or make rationality to be other than how we experience it.

If the only thing we could definitively know about God is that God is, that concept alone poses limits even on Him-it limits Him to existence rather than the alternative. He can’t both exist and not exist. Other logical inconsistencies should be ruled out as well, such as His inability to create another self-existing being, i.e. another god. Square circles would be similarly be ruled out. By what logic should we consider that alternative “logics” might exist?

 

[CeaselessMedik]

the real God is not confined to anything in this universe.

This.

My point still remains: machines can make machines. Humans make equal humans. What’s God’s inability? That there’s no other god to mate with?
Also, it seems convenient for you that many times I make an argument you simply add a new aspect to your god. "God doesn’t defy logic because he s logic. He only wants to love us because he is love…

 

[fhansen]

This.

Why? I agree that He wouldn’t be confined by His own creation. But why wouldn’t He be confined by His own nature, anyway, His own “beingness”.

 

[grannymh]

This is kind of a dumb question for quite a few reasons

1. God created us in his image and likeness. I hardly think that makes us lesser beings. In fact it almost makes us kind of like him in a way. If he wanted us to be lesser, he would have made us apes

Good point.

“God created us in His image and likeness” is one of the main Catholic doctrines regarding human nature. Could it possibly be that post one is not presenting Catholic teachings? It says: “We’re pets, basically. “He” supposedly wants loving relationships, but we must call him master and do the tricks he teaches us.”

It is hard for this cranky (feminine of snarky) granny to imagine Catholics thinking that we are pets, basically. In addition, I cannot figure out where “supposedly” fits in with Catholic doctrines.:sad_yes:

 

[fhansen]

This.

My point still remains: machines can make machines. Humans make equal humans. What’s God’s inability? That there’s no other god to mate with?
Also, it seems convenient for you that many times I make an argument you simply add a new aspect to your god. "God doesn’t defy logic because he s logic. He only wants to love us because he is love…

I don’t think any of those arguments are particularly new. Machines have a creator whom they, themselves, did not and could not create. They’re programmed by their creator to be able to create other machines. Humans don’t create other humans-they procreate. Otherwise we’d have to possess the knowledge of how to design and assemble a human from raw materials from the ground up.

 

[grannymh]

This.

My point still remains: machines can make machines. Humans make equal humans. What’s God’s inability? That there’s no other god to mate with?
Also, it seems convenient for you that many times I make an argument you simply add a new aspect to your god. "God doesn’t defy logic because he s logic. He only wants to love us because he is love…

In my humble opinion, it seems as if you have abandoned Catholic teachings.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

There’s still a pretty large gap between humans and God. I refer to my admin argument. Why wouldn’t he make us as most like him as he could? Not spending a lifetime on an Earth rife with suffering so that, if we suck up enough, we can venerate him for eternity.

Also, I’m not Catholic! I’m an agnostic atheist.

 

[fhansen]

There’s still a pretty large gap between humans and God. I refer to my admin argument. Why wouldn’t he make us as most like him as he could? Not spending a lifetime on an Earth rife with suffering so that, if we suck up enough, we can venerate him for eternity.

Also, I’m not Catholic! I’m an agnostic atheist.

The Christian teaching is that humankind’s greatest sufferings stem directly from an initial preference for being separate from God, the complete source of human happiness, a preference we’re to be working on in this life to overcome by seeing the fallacy behind it and the foolishness of it.

 

[grannymh]

The Christian teaching is that humankind’s greatest sufferings stem directly from an initial preference for being separate from God, the complete source of human happiness, a preference we’re to be working on in this life to overcome by seeing the fallacy behind it and the foolishness of it.

Evil in the world is part of the consequences of the original first human’s actual Original Sin which shattered the original relationship between humanity and divinity. Recall that man now has a wounded nature inclined to the triple concupiscence which would subjugate us to the pleasure of the senses, covetousness for earthy goods, and self-assertion, all contrary to the dictates of reason.

 

[fhansen]

Evil in the world is part of the consequences of the original first human’s actual Original Sin which shattered the original relationship between humanity and divinity. Recall that man now has a wounded nature inclined to the triple concupiscence which would subjugate us to the pleasure of the senses, covetousness for earthy goods, and self-assertion, all contrary to the dictates of reason.

Yes, and? And this is the primary source of man’s unhappiness-his lack of communion with God together with the practical results of that separation.

 

[meltzerboy]

There’s still a pretty large gap between humans and God. I refer to my admin argument. Why wouldn’t he make us as most like him as he could? Not spending a lifetime on an Earth rife with suffering so that, if we suck up enough, we can venerate him for eternity.

Also, I’m not Catholic! I’m an agnostic atheist.

Now you’re bringing the problem of evil and suffering into the discussion, which opens up a whole new kettle of fish. You should try to understand that there are Catholic, as well as Jewish, responses to this issue. I agree with what other, Catholic posters have stated, namely that G-d did make us most like Him in the sense that we are created in His image. Thus He gave us the tools to improve ourselves, provided we choose to use them. G-d does not need us to venerate Him, as you say. It is we who need G-d to lead better lives by the giving of ourselves to the lives of others. Realize that anything worthwhile in life involves some measure of effort and self-sacrifice. Not to have created us in this way would have been a disservice to us on G-d’s part.

 

[HickmanJosh]

This.

My point still remains: machines can make machines. Humans make equal humans. What’s God’s inability? That there’s no other god to mate with?
Also, it seems convenient for you that many times I make an argument you simply add a new aspect to your god. "God doesn’t defy logic because he s logic. He only wants to love us because he is love…

The thing about God is that His existence does not rely on anything other than Himself, with us we required creators in order for us to exist, the universe requires a creator because it does not explain itself. Were God to make another omnipotent being (if that were even possible) then that being would be contingent on God, it would have a start point.

Geez, I sleep and the thread practically doubles in size. I didn’t read this all because it’s TLDR and started to sound the same, but again you’re thinking within the confines of this universe’s logic. Of course God could defy it - he can be three and one at the same time, be man and god, etc.
Also, he didn’t find a way to save us by Jesus; he MADE the rule that he had to “sacrifice” himself to himself to “save” us from the hell he sends us to if we don’t follow him. That’s what it is: if there were really two equal choices (to believe/serve or not to), one wouldn’t end in eternal torment.

Part of that torment is simply being separated from God, could you imagine living in a place where nobody cared for you and all they felt towards anyone -themselves included- was hate and despair?

 

[grannymh]

There’s still a pretty large gap between humans and God. I refer to my admin argument. Why wouldn’t he make us as most like him as he could? Not spending a lifetime on an Earth rife with suffering so that, if we suck up enough, we can venerate him for eternity.

Also, I’m not Catholic! I’m an agnostic atheist.

A sincere thank you for this explanation. Your post 1 and subsequent posts lists Catholic as your religion in the upper right corner.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

No human is perfect, so even if we “accept God” we’ll never be worthy of union with him, right? So why not give us union with him in the first place?

 

[meltzerboy]

No human is perfect, so even if we “accept God” we’ll never be worthy of union with him, right? So why not give us union with him in the first place?

We don’t have to be perfect to be in union with G-d. We just have to sincerely repent of our sins and desire and attempt to improve ourselves even though we may continue to fail.

 

[grannymh]

There’s still a pretty large gap between humans and God. I refer to my admin argument. Why wouldn’t he make us as most like him as he could? Not spending a lifetime on an Earth rife with suffering so that, if we suck up enough, we can venerate him for eternity.

Also, I’m not Catholic! I’m an agnostic atheist.

A sincere thank you for this explanation. Your post 1 and subsequent posts list Catholic as your religion in the upper right corner.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

why not give us union with him in the first place?

 

[fhansen]

No human is perfect, so even if we “accept God” we’ll never be worthy of union with him, right? So why not give us union with him in the first place?

Apparently, if I understand our faith correctly, humankind was tested through Adam to see if we’d desire communion with God or not. Our free will, in part, consists in the ability to reject that communion, to reject His will. The world we live in, with it’s evil of sin, pain, suffering, and ultimately death, along with the good of existence and creation that we also experience, is the result of man preferring himself to God, as the Catechism puts it, again, placing God out of man’s immediate presence, out of communion with him.

We now, as individuals, get to decide whether or not we also prefer things that way, or, alternatively, if we learn during this life, with the help of the experience here in exile, together with grace/revelation, of God’s existence and of our need for Him. Then we can, due to His initiative first, re-commune with Him, so to speak. His purpose in allowing things to work this way is to ultimately bring a greater good yet out of the evil that occurs as a result of man’s abuse of his free will. For myself, it’s all worth it in the end, even as messed up as this world can be.

 

[grannymh]

Originally Posted by CeaselessMedik

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
why not give us union with him in the first place?

Again, thank you for your explanation – Please see post 76

To answer your question about union with God in the first place, I would like to start with some nitty-gritty Catholic doctrines which flow from the first three chapters of Genesis. To avoid going off topic, I will simply reply to your question that according to the Catholic Church, God did give us union via a divine/human relationship in the first place.

What is important about this relationship is that one party is a transcendent Pure Spirit without material restrictions and the other party is considered a “spiritual” being because his nature is an unique combination of both the material world and the spiritual world. Thus, as one post commented, we are in the image of God.

I am not asking that an agnostic atheist believe the above because choice is his personal responsibility. I am simply asking if the above fundamental position of the Catholic Church is understandable.