Why would a loving god make us lesser creatures?

[Usagi]

No human is perfect, so even if we “accept God” we’ll never be worthy of union with him, right? So why not give us union with him in the first place?

We honestly don’t know. It seems that He wanted us to choose that union, rather than just giving it to us without our cooperation.

In Christian belief, God offered that choice to both humans and angels. In the case of the angels, it was “I’ll make all of you at once, then give each one a single moment of choice; after that, you’ll either be united to Me or separated from Me for good.” Based on what has been revealed to us, about two-thirds of them chose the first option and one-third the second.(The angels are actually a good example of your “creating sub-administrators” idea; they’re stil infinitely less than God, but considerably more powerful than earthly humans, and (in the popular conception, at least) in charge of everything from planetary orbits to making the grass grow. Nevertheless, the most awesome of all of them got annoyed that he still wasn’t the Boss and rebelled.)

With humans, according to the story we have (which may not be literally true in every detail, but which most of us accept broadly describes the actual process) it was “I will put the choice to a representative set of humans; if they choose against Me, they won’t be able to pass a close relationship with Me onto their descendants. That’s not the end, though. I have another plan, but from your perspective it’s gonna take a lot of time.”

As for why He picked those particular procedures, He has not told us. Most of us who believe have other reasons to think He’s awesome and has our best interests at heart, though, so we trust Him on that one until we get the full scoop.

Usagi

 

[grannymh]

We honestly don’t know. It seems that He wanted us to choose that union, rather than just giving it to us without our cooperation.

The Catholic Church knows

and teaches that Adam from the moment of his existence was in a union, i.e., a serious (more than close) relationship with his Creator God. Serious because there were serious requirements if Adam was to maintain his relationship. Please see post 79 for the first basic Catholic doctrine.

With humans, according to the story we have (which may not be literally true in every detail, but which most of us accept broadly describes the actual process) it was “I will put the choice to a representative set of humans; if they choose against Me, they won’t be able to pass a close relationship with Me onto their descendants. That’s not the end, though. I have another plan, but from your perspective it’s gonna take a lot of time.”

This is not Catholic teaching.

I recognize that some, but not all, Catholics do not know the fundamental Catholic doctrines flowing from the first three chapters of Genesis or they have learned a somewhat superficial explanation which would substitue " close relationship" for the deeper truth of sharing in God’s life on earth and in eternal joy after death.

 

[Usagi]

The Catholic Church knows

and teaches that Adam from the moment of his existence was in a union, i.e., a serious (more than close) relationship with his Creator God. Serious because there were serious requirements if Adam was to maintain his relationship. Please see post 79 for the first basic Catholic doctrine.

This is not Catholic teaching.

I recognize that some, but not all, Catholics do not know the fundamental Catholic doctrines flowing from the first three chapters of Genesis or they have learned a somewhat superficial explanation which would substitue " close relationship" for the deeper truth of sharing in God’s life on earth and in eternal joy after death.

I was attempting to distinguish between what Adam had (a state of grace more profound than we enjoy) and full union with God in the Beatific Vision (which Adam did not yet have). “Close relationship” is definitely an understatement, but I was trying to choose language that would work for our agnostic friend.

Usagi

 

[CeaselessMedik]

So why do Adam and Eve get to choose for the rest of us and, if we have a choice, why does one option lead to Hell and so make it effectively a non-choice? And no one has answered conclusively why God couldn’t be head admin, or less well-described, Speaker of the House and we normal state representatives? Basically, why do his minions get superhuman power because he knows they’re faithful?

 

[fhansen]

So why do Adam and Eve get to choose for the rest of us and, if we have a choice, why does one option lead to Hell and so make it effectively a non-choice? And no one has answered conclusively why God couldn’t be head admin, or less well-described, Speaker of the House and we normal state representatives? Basically, why do his minions get superhuman power because he knows they’re faithful?

It’s always a choice, a choice between life and death, good and evil, heaven and hell, God or no God. Because the absence of God is hell.

 

[grannymh]

I was attempting to distinguish between what Adam had (a state of grace more profound than we enjoy) and full union with God in the Beatific Vision (which Adam did not yet have). “Close relationship” is definitely an understatement, but I was trying to choose language that would work for our agnostic friend.

Usagi

I understand the difficulty.

The really serious departure from Catholicism is this statement in post 80. I put in bold the key disruptions.
"With humans, according to the story we have (which may not be literally true in every detail, but which most of us accept broadly describes the actual process) it was “I will put the choice to a** representative set of humans**; if they choose against Me, …”

Catholics profess faith in Catholic doctrines which means that Catholics accept the Divine Revelation in these doctrines.

Divine Revelation does not teach that there was a representative set of humans (Please note plural humans.) because there was only one human man and his female spouse at the beginning of human history. Basically there was no “they choose”. There was only one, single, real, first living human being known biblically as Adam who committed the actual, real Original Sin which shattered the serious relationship between humanity and divinity.

Today, Baptism restores this supernatural relationship so that a person can turn back to God and share in His life through sanctifying grace. The unity of humankind is assured by our descent from one set of human parents. It is by reason of this human unity that Christ’s salvific mission was for all humans.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

It’s always a choice, a choice between life and death, good and evil, heaven and hell, God or no God. Because the absence of God is hell.

Hmm. I could have sworn Hell is a fiery place of eternal torment.

 

[fhansen]

Hmm. I could have sworn Hell is a fiery place of eternal torment.

1057 Hell’s principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[CeaselessMedik]

I really don’t want to spend eternity with the Catholic god, so okay.

 

[Usagi]

Hmm. I could have sworn Hell is a fiery place of eternal torment.

Hell may be a place.

There may be fire there (or something analogous to fire, since until the General Resurrection it only “burns” disembodied spirits).

But first and foremost, Hell is the condition of a soul that is eternally separated from God.

Usagi

 

[Usagi]

I really don’t want to spend eternity with the Catholic god, so okay.

Haven’t you just spent the entire thread being annoyed that God didn’t create you in union with Him to begin with, or as His direct subordinate? (Well, okay, you started off wanting to be God #2, but you have expressed those other things as well.)

Usagi

 

[fhansen]

I really don’t want to spend eternity with the Catholic god, so okay.

Yes, of course. I’ve got a feeling you don’t know him very well.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

Haven’t you just spent the entire thread being annoyed that God didn’t create you in union with Him to begin with, or as His direct subordinate? (Well, okay, you started off wanting to be God #2, but you have expressed those other things as well.)

Usagi

Well, I would if he didn’t demand worship and instead made a fraternity. I guess I didn’t convey that well.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

Yes, of course. I’ve got a feeling you don’t know him very well.

I didn’t know Hitler or Mao well, either. I’m not saying God is either (if he exists), but if he does, he did some nasty and narcissistic things, especially in the OT.

 

[fhansen]

I didn’t know Hitler or Mao well, either. I’m not saying God is either (if he exists), but if he does, he did some nasty and narcissistic things, especially in the OT.

He’s *reported *to do some nasty and perhaps narcissistic things as well in the OT. I don’t know if all the OT writers knew God so well either, or were supporting their own agenda instead. All I know is that Jesus Christ revealed the face of God in a more definitive manner than had ever been done before and that revelation was of a being who was infinitely kind, merciful, and, amazingly, humble even-and loving on a scale we can’t even begin to imagine. The *Church *defines and expounds on the nature and will of God, not based on personal interpretations of Scripture, and I’ve not yet heard her place terms such as nasty or narcissistic on the list of his attributes.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

I’m not the Church…

 

[HickmanJosh]

So why do Adam and Eve get to choose for the rest of us and, if we have a choice, why does one option lead to Hell and so make it effectively a non-choice? And no one has answered conclusively why God couldn’t be head admin, or less well-described, Speaker of the House and we normal state representatives? Basically, why do his minions get superhuman power because he knows they’re faithful?

Hell is principally a place without Love, that is its primary definition. Why did God create us the way He did? Well He created us this way so He obviously thought it was the best way to go about the universe. He already made a race of spiritual beings (angles) who are simply intellects and wills. God gave them the option to of Love or living otherwise and some chose to live otherwise.

Why does God give people powers because they are faithful? Maybe because He trusts them, if i could give someone power i obviously wouldn’t give it to someone i did not trust, to someone who would use it to their own advantage and to the detriment of others.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

He created us this way so He obviously thought it was the best way to go about the universe.

So you think anythng he wants goes?

 

[grannymh]

So you think anythng he wants goes?

How would you describe God?

 

[Lochias]

I didn’t know Hitler or Mao well, either. I’m not saying God is either (if he exists), but if he does, he did some nasty and narcissistic things, especially in the OT.

You’re just here to argue, aren’t you?

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