Why would anyone want to be a Mormon or Jehovah Witnesses? Part 2

[Nicea325]

Ah, but did you see my post where their “prophets” admitted to breaking the law?

You are right, this is getting so comical it is sad.

He is obviously ignoring proof that his so called “prophets” lied about obeying the law of the land.

But hey, when all else fails, ignore it, and it will go away…lol

It is sad. Math truly believes God sanctified polygamy? That is truly sad.

 

[twopekinguys]

It is sad. Math truly believes God sanctified polygamy? That is truly sad.

What is also sad is when someone (Steve) blows holes in his claims, he tries to shrug it off as if the post doesn’t make sense.

Another trait of Z/math

 

[mathonihah]

Continue opposing because it is God’s given law and principle…to the point of giving one’s life for it.

Have you looked at those Christian martyrs who did not give in to the roman rulers to bow to Roman gods?

Or those Christian missionaries who went out to Asia and gave their lives rather than denounce their beliefs?

Contrast this now with what the LDS did…

You are not comparing like with like. The Christian martyrs were being forced to renounce their faith altogether. Mormons were not being required to renounce their faith. In Mormonism polygamy is not a religious requirement or obligation. It is not salvation issue. It is a possibility. It says, you can have more than one wife if you want one. It doesn’t say, you must have more than one wife or you will be damned.

How do you know that?

And yes, a government can be made to rescing a decision…if it is truly God’s…through perseverance, prayer, trust in God’s time and will and that God will eventually change the government’s decision.

But looks like the LDS did not trust in God…

How do you know it wasn’t God’s will for the practice to be stopped at that time? What is God’s will at one time may not be at another time. The Book of Mormon teaches that polygamy is permissible when God commands it; and he does not always command it.

That is right…just as the LDS are liable for bending to the will of the secular, and not insisting on God’s law and principle.

They didn’t “bend to the will of the secular;” they bent to the will of God. God told them it was time for them to stop it.

 

[TexanKnight]

They did disagree with the law and appeal against it. What else were they supposed to do? God is not going to force the government make the right decisions. If they make wrong decisions, they will be answerable for it in the day of judgement.

Not true

WRONG. Polygamy continued LONG past the date it was declared illegal. It was declared illegal in 1862.

That did not stop Mormons and their “abiding by the law of the land”. They continued. In 1878, the Supreme Court ruled polygamy was not protected by the Constitution. Still, they Mormons continued. So much for “abiding by the laws of the land”.

In 1890, almost THIRTY YEARS after it was declared illegal, and 12 years after the Supreme Court declared it was not protected, a Manifesto came from Woodruff saying no NEW polygamous marriages would occur. Those existing could continue- so much for “abiding by the laws of the land”. Still, the LDS allowed new polygamous marriages. It was not till 1910, almost FIFTY years after it was declared illegal, that the LDS Church began excommunicating members for NEW marriages. The existing ones continued to exist…and those members were never ex’d.

So much for abiding by the law.

And they did not discontinue the practice because of the law…they discontinued because of the financial issues.

I do not know if Math made his comment because he just does not know his own LDS history, or if he is just being dishonest.

Either way, THIS is why we respond.

 

[SteveVH]

How do you know it wasn’t God’s will for the practice to be stopped at that time? What is God’s will at one time may not be at another time. The Book of Mormon teaches that polygamy is permissible when God commands it; and he does not always command it.

And this is a fatal flaw in Mormon theology; the fact that you believe that God’s will changes from time to time. God is unchanging for eternity. His perfect will is not subject to anything in the universe; not to circumstances, or decisions of others, or laws enacted by governments. Changing one’s mind is a human characteristic, not a divine characteristic. But this is in line with the Mormon view of the nature of God; he is nothing more than an exalted human being. He behaves no differently than us. You really need to open your eyes here Math.

 

[pablope]

You are not comparing like with like. The Christian martyrs were being forced to renounce their faith altogether. Mormons were not being required to renounce their faith. In Mormonism polygamy is not a religious requirement or obligation. It is not salvation issue. It is a possibility. It says, you can have more than one wife if you want one. It doesn’t say, you must have more than one wife or you will be damned.

Does not matter…it is a matter of principle and moral belief. The LDS believed and still believes it is an important matter and tenet of the LDS faith…then the LDS should not waiver in its fight for that principle.

But the LDS went the opposite way. Looks like the LDS have no principles rooted in concrete…they bend when they are threatened…

How do you know it wasn’t God’s will for the practice to be stopped at that time? What is God’s will at one time may not be at another time. The Book of Mormon teaches that polygamy is permissible when God commands it; and he does not always command it.

 

[bitznbitez]

And if Luther claimed murder was a legitimate biblical practice and advocated it, does it truly make correct? You are one odd person…

Well Luther did in fact claim that just because someone murdered their spouse so they could be with their lover was no reason to prohibit the marriage. The fact the Church said that if you killed your wife to be with your lover meant you could not marry your lover was one of his proofs the church was apostate and something in need of reform. He actually cited David and Bathsheeba as the example of what should be permitted since David was permitted to marry.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Wrong. It is illogical to argue that because God made one wife for Adam, that makes it illegitimate to have more than one. That is just bad logic. It is faulty reasoning.

Well you can poo-poo what God does, but I think it’s important to pay attention to what He does.

 

[Stephen168]

Wrong. It is illogical to argue that because God made one wife for Adam, that makes it illegitimate to have more than one. That is just bad logic. It is faulty reasoning.

God set the example and Christ repeated it. It is clear that Christians as followers of Christ do not practice polygamy. Joseph Smith was not restoring Christianity. I see you are still ignoring posts 99 &101, I’m beginning to think your claim was a lie.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I see you are still ignoring posts 99 &101, I’m beginning to think your claim was a lie.

I’ve asked twice now too, I doubt he’ll give an answer.

 

[mathonihah]

And this is a fatal flaw in Mormon theology; the fact that you believe that God’s will changes from time to time. God is unchanging for eternity. His perfect will is not subject to anything in the universe; not to circumstances, or decisions of others, or laws enacted by governments. Changing one’s mind is a human characteristic, not a divine characteristic. But this is in line with the Mormon view of the nature of God; he is nothing more than an exalted human being. He behaves no differently than us. You really need to open your eyes here Math.

Of course God’s will can change depending on the circumstances. His eternal laws do not change but his will can. For example, he told the Jews that they could divorce their wives; but in the New Testament he tells us that that was done because of the hardness of their hearts.

 

[pablope]

Of course God’s will can change depending on the circumstances. His eternal laws do not change but his will can. For example, he told the Jews that they could divorce their wives; but in the New Testament he tells us that that was done because of the hardness of their hearts.

There is one word this kind of defense…Rationalization…

 

[TheIrishman]

God also told the prophets it was okay for them to have more than one wife.

Where does God say it’s ok for prophets to have more than one wife? If you are referencing Abraham, Isaac and Jacob again. I would say, there is a difference between allowing and condoning. God has never said he approves of plural marriage. But He has said that he approves of one man and women becoming one flesh through marriage.

 

[mathonihah]

Does not matter…it is a matter of principle and moral belief. The LDS believed and still believes it is an important matter and tenet of the LDS faith…then the LDS should not waiver in its fight for that principle.

But the LDS went the opposite way. Looks like the LDS have no principles rooted in concrete…they bend when they are threatened…

Already answered. Nothing more need be added.

But as shown by posters here, with historical evidence…which you have failed to address…the practice did not stop…it continued surreptitously.

Those claims are false. I believe the words of Wilford Woodruff a lot better than that of the Mormon critics. Here is a quot from Official Declaration 1

To Whom It May Concern:

Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy—

I, therefore, as President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.

One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.

There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.

Wilford Woodruff
President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:

“I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding.”

Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.

Did the LDS leaders and faithful spent time in deep prayer…fasted…etc, to ascertain the will of God?

Of course they did. Wilford Woodruff made that clear in his statements. The Manifesto was issued in response to a revelation.

And because God is constant and does not change…if it is a matter of morals…then He would change.

And I think this is further evidence of the judgement of the CC in saying the LDS is not really Christianh…you do worship a different God…and the LDS is totally a different religion.

If you favor CC over LDS that is up to you. I have nothing to add.

 

[mathonihah]

Well Luther did in fact claim that just because someone murdered their spouse so they could be with their lover was no reason to prohibit the marriage. The fact the Church said that if you killed your wife to be with your lover meant you could not marry your lover was one of his proofs the church was apostate and something in need of reform. He actually cited David and Bathsheeba as the example of what should be permitted since David was permitted to marry.

That is an interesting observation. You may be interested to know that according to Mormon revelation, David committed a very serious sin as a result of which he lost his salvation and exaltation (contrary to traditional Christian belief on the subject).

 

[TheIrishman]

That is an interesting observation. You may be interested to know that according to Mormon revelation, David committed a very serious sin as a result of which he lost his salvation and exaltation (contrary to traditional Christian belief on the subject).

Does Traditional Christianity, specifically Catholicism believe that David is in Heaven? Just curious, like you mentioned, we are taught that David lost his exaltation.

 

[mathonihah]

There is one word this kind of defense…Rationalization…

If that is what you want to call it, that is fine. I call it, “telling it as it is”.

 

[mathonihah]

Does Traditional Christianity, specifically Catholicism believe that David is in Heaven? Just curious, like you mentioned, we are taught that David lost his exaltation.

Not sure about Catholicism specifically; but I believe that is the view of Christians generally.

 

[TexanKnight]

Already answered. Nothing more need be added.

Those claims are false. I believe the words of Wilford Woodruff a lot better than that of the Mormon critics. Here is a quot from Official Declaration 1

To Whom It May Concern:

Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy—

I, therefore, as President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.

One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.

There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.

Wilford Woodruff
President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:

“I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding.”

Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.

Of course they did. Wilford Woodruff made that clear in his statements. The Manifesto was issued in response to a revelation.

If you favor CC over LDS that is up to you. I have nothing to add.

Really? That is not what you said earlier. You said the Church abides by the laws of the land. Now you say they can pick and choose.

And to say it was stopped when the SC ruled is another lie.

Again

WRONG. Polygamy continued LONG past the date it was declared illegal. It was declared illegal in 1862.

That did not stop Mormons and their “abiding by the law of the land”. They continued. In 1878, the Supreme Court ruled polygamy was not protected by the Constitution. Still, they Mormons continued. So much for “abiding by the laws of the land”.

In 1890, almost THIRTY YEARS after it was declared illegal, and 12 years after the Supreme Court declared it was not protected, a Manifesto came from Woodruff saying no NEW polygamous marriages would occur. Those existing could continue- so much for “abiding by the laws of the land”. Still, the LDS allowed new polygamous marriages. It was not till 1910, almost FIFTY years after it was declared illegal, that the LDS Church began excommunicating members for NEW marriages. The existing ones continued to exist…and those members were never ex’d.

So much for abiding by the law.

And they did not discontinue the practice because of the law…they discontinued because of the financial issues.

I do not know if Math made his comment because he just does not know his own LDS history, or if he is just being dishonest.

Either way, THIS is why we respond.

And you have YET to respond to this post. Because you CAN’T. You are too afraid because you KNOW you can’t defend your dishonesty

 

[TexanKnight]

If that is what you want to call it, that is fine. I call it, “telling it as it is”.

no you don’t. you dodge, you ignore, you rationalize and you are dishonest.

In other words, you are Mormon.

Be Blessed