Why would anyone want to be a Mormon or Jehovah Witnesses? Part 2

[TexanKnight]

Are you sure? Brigham Young would beg to differ…

• Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 11, p. 269

And I came across this and thought it was interesting pertaining to the discussion:

• Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 361

There you go with facts again. Math hates facts he can’t refute…especially those from “prophets”

 

[TexanKnight]

To be clear, the Mormon church outlawed polygamy in 1890.

not true. They outlawed NEW polygamy. Nothing was done about old polygamy.

 

[Stephen168]

I have proven you wrong re: your story of polygamy. It would help if you would explain to everyone as to why you are afraid of me and the truth

The truth demands facts and reason.
Mormonism is based on claims.
Claims which cannot be supported by facts and reason.
All posts demanding facts and reason will be ignored.

 

[SteveVH]

First of all, I’d like to introduce myself - I’m Xeale. Good morning one and all.

Secondly, it amazes me how a majority of Mormons who attempt to misdirect us Catholic Christians always seem to concentrate the thrust of their arguments in relation to the OLD covenant (testament). We are the New Covenant Church.

Third, the Mormon church outlawed polygamy more than ten years ago - yeah, it’s recent. So “M,” study up on your faith.

Now for an answer to the title of the post. Please bear in mind, as a self-taught apologist, I have read about the Mormons and Jehovahs before. I can appreciate the stand Mormons make in regard to the importance of family. When I was little, our entire family sat down for dinner together and spent time in fellowship - you don’t see that in the typical family anymore. As for the Jehovahs Witnesses, they fearlessly proclaim the Kingdom out in public with a conviction rarely seen in this day and age.

Welcome to CAF, Xeale. Yes, the Mormons seem to place a lot of emphasis on the importance of the family. But Catholic’s have nothing to learn from them in this regard. No one places greater emphasis on the family then does the Catholic Church. Regardless, it is their theology with which we take exception.

As for the Jehovah’s witnesses, it may appear that they have great zeal for the Lord, proclaiming the kingdom to all. In reality, they are out filling quotas, making record of everyone they have visited, to turn into the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society each and every month in order to remain in good standing. I had a JW employee who would sweat bullets if she didn’t think she was going to have enough time to fill her quota. Their motivation does not spring from love of the Lord, but rather from fear of their own organization.

As a thrust for the New Evangelization, we Catholic Christians can learn from those around us how to appreciate our own faith, how to build on it at home and share our relationship with the Lord with others. Let us keep in mind though what St Paul said: “We know in part and see in part.”

There is no doubt that all of us can improve our lives in these areas. But we just need to follow what we have already been given. We don’t need the LDS or JW’s to lead us by example.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Of course God’s will can change depending on the circumstances. His eternal laws do not change but his will can. For example, he told the Jews that they could divorce their wives; but in the New Testament he tells us that that was done because of the hardness of their hearts.

God is Good, and what is morally good doesn’t change according to circumstance. That is called pragmatism. God does not change, He is the same from age to age. OUR understanding grows. God’s will cannot be in opposition to God’s laws, that makes for a God on which we cannot rely. One where we have to guess at what is right and what is wrong, at any moment.

God never describes Himself in this way. This is the Mormon description of a false god.

God did not tell the Jews they could divorce, Jesus said God ALLOWED divorce because of the hardness of THEIR hearts. God never commanded polygamy, God ALLOWED polygamy. Jesus makes it very clear in the Gospels, marriage is as it was made in the beginning, ONE man and ONE woman. To deny this is just making excuses for wanting to follow the lusts of your own heart, which is NOT God’s will.

 

[lax16]

You are not comparing like with like. The Christian martyrs were being forced to renounce their faith altogether. Mormons were not being required to renounce their faith. In Mormonism polygamy is not a religious requirement or obligation. It is not salvation issue. It is a possibility. It says, you can have more than one wife if you want one. It doesn’t say, you must have more than one wife or you will be damned.

But why did BY say:

**“Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266). Also, “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).
**

 

[Xeale]

Living Waters,

Thanks for set’n me straight on those bits of data. What I had heard 10 or so years ago may have been a clarification on 1890.

 

[Xeale]

SteveVH,

Point well taken.

 

[Xeale]

SteveVH,

Point well taken.

 

[lax16]

God also told the prophets it was okay for them to have more than one wife.

But what did he tell your prophet?

As late as 1850 John Taylor, who became the 3rd president of the church, denied that the Mormons believed in the practice of plural marriage:
"We are accused here of polygamy,... and actions the most indelicate, obscene, and disgusting, such that none but a corrupt and depraved heart could have contrived. These things are too outrageous to admit of belief;... I shall content myself by reading our views of chastity and marriage, from a work published by us containing some of the articles of our Faith. 'Doctrine and Covenants,' page 330... Inasmuch as this Church of Jesus Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death,...' " (A tract published by John Taylor in 1850, page 8; found in Orson Pratt's Works, 1851 edition)

 

[lax16]

You are not comparing like with like. The Christian martyrs were being forced to renounce their faith altogether. Mormons were not being required to renounce their faith. In Mormonism polygamy is not a religious requirement or obligation. It is not salvation issue. It is a possibility. It says, you can have more than one wife if you want one. It doesn’t say, you must have more than one wife or you will be damned.

No, that is not true.

After 1852, when the Mormon Church was openly practicing polygamy, the leaders of the church were declaring that it was absolutely essential for exaltation. **Joseph F. Smith, who **served as the 6th president of the church, made this emphatic declaration concerning the importance of polygamy:

** "Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort of superfluity, or non-essential to the salvation of mankind. In other words, some of the Saints have said, and believe that a man with one wife, sealed to him by the authority of the Priesthood for time and eternity, will receive an exaltation as great and glorious, if he is faithful, as he possibly could with more than one. I want here to enter my protest against this idea, for I know it is false.… Therefore, whoever has imagined that he could obtain the fullness of the blessings pertaining to this celestial law, by complying with only a portion of its conditions, has deceived himself. He cannot do it. When that principle was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith,… he did not falter, although it was not until an angel of God, with a drawn sword, stood before him and commanded that he should enter into the practice of that principle, or he should be utterly destroyed, or rejected…**

"If then, this principle was of such great importance that the Prophet himself was threatened with destruction,... it is useless to tell me that there is no blessing attached to obedience to the law,** or that a man with only one wife can obtain as great a reward, glory or kingdom as he can with more than one,...**

"I understand the law of celestial marriage to mean that every man in this Church, who has the ability to obey and practice it in righteousness and will not, shall be damned, I say I understand it to mean this and nothing less, and I testify in the name of Jesus that it does mean that." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 28-31)

In 1891 the First Presidency and Apostles of the Mormon Church made the following statement in a petition to the President of the United States: "We formerly taught to our people that polygamy or celestial marriage as commanded by God through Joseph Smith was right; **that it was a necessity to man's highest exaltation in the life to come.**" (Reed Smoot Case, vol. 1, page 18)


Apostle Orson Pratt strongly affirmed that it was absolutely essential that polygamy not be given up by the church:

"**God has told us Latter-day Saints that we shall be condemned if we do not enter into that principle; **and yet I have heard now and then... a brother or sister say, 'I am a Latter-day Saint, but I do not believe in polygamy! Oh, what an absurd expression! What an absurd idea! A person might as well say, 'I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, but I do not believe in him.' One is just as consistent as the other.... If the doctrine of polygamy, as revealed to the Latter-day Saints, is not true, I would not give a fig for all your other revelations that came through Joseph Smith the Prophet; I would renounce the whole of them, because it is utterly impossible.... to believe a part of them to be divine — from God — and a part of them to be from the devil;... The Lord has said that those who reject this principle reject their salvation, they shall be damned, saith the Lord;...

"Now I want to prophecy a little.... **I want to prophecy that all men who oppose the revelation which God has given in relation to polygamy will find themselves in darkness;** the Spirit of God will withdraw from them the very moment of their opposition to that principle, until they will finally go down to hell and be damned, if they do not repent.... if you do not become as dark as midnight there is no truth in Mormonism." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 17, p. 224-225)

 

[zaffiroborant]

God also told the prophets it was okay for them to have more than one wife.

You have been asked quite a few times now to show where God said it is okay to have more than one wife. You should provide something to back it up or stop making the assertion.

 

[lynnettejane]

Does Traditional Christianity, specifically Catholicism believe that David is in Heaven? Just curious, like you mentioned, we are taught that David lost his exaltation.

No one knows what happened to David after his death, that is God’s business alone despite the rantings of bogus prophets
One thing is true, David sinned, he was responsible for a man’s death for which he lost a son by Bathsheba, they were punished, 2 Sam 12: 13-14, and Nathan the prophet told him that he was forgiven…
David for all his weaknesses was chosen by God and he had confidence in God’s mercy and forgiveness, read Psalm 51, it is so beautiful. David acknowledges his birth in sin. He acknowledges and begs God to cleanse him of his guilt, he begs God to create in him anew heart, begs Him not to deprive him of his holy spirit, and realises that God requires a sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit above all sacrifices. It is a psalm of a penitent, who is petitioning God teach him, love him, purify him, be his saviour, show his favour and save him, he is in fact pleading for a work of grace…forgiveness. We must always trust in God’s mercy, if he turns his face way from us then what hope have we, but we know he doesn’t, as demonstrated by the sacrifice of our Lord. Read also Psalm 32. God will deal with us all mercifully, and justly, we have to trust him.

 

[TexanKnight]

You have been asked quite a few times now to show where God said it is okay to have more than one wife. You should provide something to back it up or stop making the assertion.

and he has been shown a ton of facts and quotes that prove every point he has wrong. He just ignores them

 

[Nicea325]

God is Good, and what is morally good doesn’t change according to circumstance. That is called pragmatism. God does not change, He is the same from age to age. OUR understanding grows. God’s will cannot be in opposition to God’s laws, that makes for a God on which we cannot rely. One where we have to guess at what is right and what is wrong, at any moment.

God never describes Himself in this way. This is the Mormon description of a false god.

God did not tell the Jews they could divorce, Jesus said God ALLOWED divorce because of the hardness of THEIR hearts. God never commanded polygamy, God ALLOWED polygamy. Jesus makes it very clear in the Gospels, marriage is as it was made in the beginning, ONE man and ONE woman. To deny this is just making excuses for wanting to follow the lusts of your own heart, which is NOT God’s will.

This the whole issue which makes it difficult to discuss God with Mormons and JW’s. They have a totally different God. The Mormon & JW’s God is fabricated according to their own delusions.

 

[Nicea325]

According to Mormonism it isn’t! I don’t know how much you know about Mormons; but in Mormonism marriages are solemnized for eternity, not just for time, or “until death do you part”.

Again, in Mormonism there is!

That may be true in Catholicism, but not in Mormonism.

Yep! Exactly why Mormons are NOT Christians. Your twisted man-made religion is in a league of their own with the JW’s. Go and discuss your Mormon god(s) with the JW’s and their god(s) too.

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by mathonihah
Of course God’s will can change depending on the circumstances. His eternal laws do not change but his will can. For example, he told the Jews that they could divorce their wives; but in the New Testament he tells us that that was done because of the hardness of their hearts

Mormonism theology at its best! Sorry, we are not interested in the Mormon god or gods.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Does Traditional Christianity, specifically Catholicism believe that David is in Heaven? Just curious, like you mentioned, we are taught that David lost his exaltation.

The LDS teaching is based on the teaching that a murderer cannot achieve salvation. Which is based on an idea that the sin of murder cannot be atoned for. This is in opposition to Jesus Christ, who has atoned for ALL our sins, including those committed by the most hardened criminal.

As has been pointed out, David was sorrowful and repentant. God promised to David that his line would produce a King for ever, which is found in Jesus Christ, who is a son of David. David, being the “father” of the Messiah, was chosen by God as a “man after his own heart”, and is understood to know God’s mercy and forgiveness.

 

[lynnettejane]

You are not comparing like with like. The Christian martyrs were being forced to renounce their faith altogether. Mormons were not being required to renounce their faith. In Mormonism polygamy is not a religious requirement or obligation. It is not salvation issue. It is a possibility. It says, you can have more than one wife if you want one. It doesn’t say, you must have more than one wife or you will be damned.

How do you know it wasn’t God’s will for the practice to be stopped at that time? What is God’s will at one time may not be at another time. The Book of Mormon teaches that polygamy is permissible when God commands it; and he does not always command it.

They didn’t “bend to the will of the secular;” they bent to the will of God. God told them it was time for them to stop it.

Absolute nonsense !! God went to the trouble of restoring the true gospel/church and part of that restoration, of practices that you claim were righteous before God and according to your prophets, necessary for your exaltation, then God sees things aren’t going so well because of his work of restoration in these last days, so he decides ok, I’ll bin that bit, because it is standing in the way of the church’s political aspirations. What kind of “restoration” is that? BTW in case you hadn’t noticed quoting the BOM is a waste of time on these boards, same goes for any other mormon fable masquerading as scripture, because we know that JS was not a prophet of God and that the BOM is not true. Your house is built on quicksand

 

[lynnettejane]

No, that is not true.

After 1852, when the Mormon Church was openly practicing polygamy, the leaders of the church were declaring that it was absolutely essential for exaltation. **Joseph F. Smith, who **served as the 6th president of the church, made this emphatic declaration concerning the importance of polygamy:

** "Some people have supposed that the doctrine of plural marriage was a sort of superfluity, or non-essential to the salvation of mankind. In other words, some of the Saints have said, and believe that a man with one wife, sealed to him by the authority of the Priesthood for time and eternity, will receive an exaltation as great and glorious, if he is faithful, as he possibly could with more than one. I want here to enter my protest against this idea, for I know it is false.… Therefore, whoever has imagined that he could obtain the fullness of the blessings pertaining to this celestial law, by complying with only a portion of its conditions, has deceived himself. He cannot do it. When that principle was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith,… he did not falter, although it was not until an angel of God, with a drawn sword, stood before him and commanded that he should enter into the practice of that principle, or he should be utterly destroyed, or rejected…**

"If then, this principle was of such great importance that the Prophet himself was threatened with destruction,... it is useless to tell me that there is no blessing attached to obedience to the law,** or that a man with only one wife can obtain as great a reward, glory or kingdom as he can with more than one,...**

"I understand the law of celestial marriage to mean that every man in this Church, who has the ability to obey and practice it in righteousness and will not, shall be damned, I say I understand it to mean this and nothing less, and I testify in the name of Jesus that it does mean that." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 28-31)

In 1891 the First Presidency and Apostles of the Mormon Church made the following statement in a petition to the President of the United States: "We formerly taught to our people that polygamy or celestial marriage as commanded by God through Joseph Smith was right; **that it was a necessity to man's highest exaltation in the life to come.**" (Reed Smoot Case, vol. 1, page 18)


Apostle Orson Pratt strongly affirmed that it was absolutely essential that polygamy not be given up by the church:

"**God has told us Latter-day Saints that we shall be condemned if we do not enter into that principle; **and yet I have heard now and then... a brother or sister say, 'I am a Latter-day Saint, but I do not believe in polygamy! Oh, what an absurd expression! What an absurd idea! A person might as well say, 'I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, but I do not believe in him.' One is just as consistent as the other.... If the doctrine of polygamy, as revealed to the Latter-day Saints, is not true, I would not give a fig for all your other revelations that came through Joseph Smith the Prophet; I would renounce the whole of them, because it is utterly impossible.... to believe a part of them to be divine — from God — and a part of them to be from the devil;... The Lord has said that those who reject this principle reject their salvation, they shall be damned, saith the Lord;...

"Now I want to prophecy a little.... **I want to prophecy that all men who oppose the revelation which God has given in relation to polygamy will find themselves in darkness;** the Spirit of God will withdraw from them the very moment of their opposition to that principle, until they will finally go down to hell and be damned, if they do not repent.... if you do not become as dark as midnight there is no truth in Mormonism." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 17, p. 224-225)

Thanks Lax, there are so many quotes showing what mormons deny, that I honestly couldn’t be bothered to look them all up, so thank you for your effort