Why would anyone want to be a Mormon or Jehovah Witnesses?

[TexanKnight]

I once had a discussion with two Mormons outside a local shopping mall and explaining their “God” and I know it is not the same as the Eternal God we worship. However, they made the remark:

People say we do not worship the same God as other Christians.We believe in Jesus Christ

My facial look: :ehh:

What blows my mind away is how they simply refuse to acknowledge the HUGE differences, in reference to our God and the Mormon God or gods or whatever crazy beliefs they have, I cannot keep track.

it is one of mthe signs of a cult. Most Mormons do not know the real teachings of their church. And when you prove them wrong, like I just did quoting their prophets, they clam up or claim “it was just opinion”.

Apparently, if they like what their leaders say, it is doctrine, and if they don;'t, it is just opinion.

Strange way to run a train

 

[Nicea325]

it is one of mthe signs of a cult. Most Mormons do not know the real teachings of their church. And when you prove them wrong, like I just did quoting their prophets, they clam up or claim “it was just opinion”.

Apparently, if they like what their leaders say, it is doctrine, and if they don;'t, it is just opinion.

Strange way to run a train

Very true as you have shown here at CAF. Quick question for you my friend, do the LDS leaders tell the faithful not to read other materials outside their circles? I know JW’s are encouraged NOT to read anything outside the Watchtower Publications.

 

[TexanKnight]

Very true as you have shown here at CAF. Quick question for you my friend, do the LDS leaders tell the faithful not to read other materials outside their circles? I know JW’s are encouraged NOT to read anything outside the Watchtower Publications.

Yes. I was told not to read anything religious unless approved by the Church. When I was getting questions reading old doctrine and history books, I was told to only read current approved church materials.

I also found that many of the old books had newer editions that were “scrubbed”

 

[zaffiroborant]

I have never, ever in my 35 active years as a mormon, ever been taught “I get to be a God on my own planet” Not in any Sunday school lesson, or priesthood quorum, or temple session. Not in any bishopric meeting, or fireside, or hallway discussion. I’ve never seen it in any church literature. I’ve only heard it from critics, and maybe a mormon or two speculating about what the eternities must be like, since the Bible tells us Christ inherited everything the Father hath, and we can be joint heirs with Christ.

We are taught about exhaltation. I know you guys don’t believe it. I know y’all think it’s false doctrine, and feel the need now to counter the notion, and that’s fine. I’m just sticking it out there because it’s what we are actually taught - and not the goofy sensationalistic “eternal sex with a million wives on your own planet” nonsense people keep telling me I am taught.

LDS Gospel Principles manual chapter 47: Exhaltation

Ditto (but, I have been an active Mormon much longer than 35 years.)

Well they certainly have watered down the teaching on exaltation particularly number 3. Where are all these spirit children going to live if not on a planet created so they can progress?
Current Gospel Principles Manual:

Blessings of Exaltation

•

What are some blessings that will be given to those who are exalted?

Our Heavenly Father is perfect, and He glories in the fact that it is possible for His children to become like Him. His work and glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1.   They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ     (see D&C 76:62).
2.   They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).
3.   **They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase**.
4.   They will receive a fulness of joy.
5.   They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:36; italics in original).

Former Gospel Principles Manual:

Blessings of Exaltation

Our Heavenly Father is perfect. However, he is not jealous of his wisdom and perfection. He glories in the fact that it is possible for his children to become like him. He has said, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).

2. They will become gods.

3.** They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father**. They will be an eternal family.

4. They will receive a fulness of joy.

5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).

LDS keep saying we were never taught we’d have our own planet, but a planet seems necessary to house all those spirit children who will be worshiping you.

 

[Nicea325]

Yes. I was told not to read anything religious unless approved by the Church. When I was getting questions reading old doctrine and history books, I was told to only read current approved church materials.

I also found that many of the old books had newer editions that were “scrubbed”

How interesting. So in other words, mind control is key in keeping its members? Smells cultish to me even though Mormons say otherwise?

 

[TexanKnight]

Well they certainly have watered down the teaching on exaltation particularly number 3. Where are all these spirit children going to live if not on a planet created so they can progress?

LDS keep saying we were never taught we’d have our own planet, but a planet seems necessary to house all those spirit children who will be worshiping you.

I already showed where having a planet WAS taught…

 

[TexanKnight]

How interesting. So in other words, mind control is key in keeping its members? Smells cultish to me even though Mormons say otherwise?

yes. One of the charges against me when I was excommunicated (after asking for my name to be removed from the rolls) was that I spoke out against the Church IN MY OWN HOME.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I already showed where having a planet WAS taught…

And I showed why the no planet claim makes no sense, in LDS “theology”.

 

[TexanKnight]

And I showed why the no planet claim makes no sense, in LDS “theology”.

Aren’t we the clever ones?

 

[Nicea325]

yes. One of the charges against me when I was excommunicated (after asking for my name to be removed from the rolls) was that I spoke out against the Church IN MY OWN HOME.

Charges? Wow! Did you ever get threats of any kind? The rolls? Is that some sort of membership file?

 

[TexanKnight]

Charges? Wow! Did you ever get threats of any kind? The rolls? Is that some sort of membership file?

oh yes. Threats. Harassment (like being told I was committing the unforgivable sin if denying the Holy Ghost and could never be forgiven), and finally, as I have recounted several times, they tried kidnapping my children

 

[Nicea325]

oh yes. Threats. Harassment (like being told I was committing the unforgivable sin if denying the Holy Ghost and could never be forgiven), and finally, as I have recounted several times, they tried kidnapping my children

Whhaaat? Serious? And they claim not to be a cult? Now that totally blows my mind away…kidnapping? I am assuming you notified the police? I am very sorry you experienced such a horrible experience.

 

[TexanKnight]

Whhaaat? Serious? And they claim not to be a cult? Now that totally blows my mind away…kidnapping? I am assuming you notified the police? I am very sorry you experienced such a horrible experience.

Police and judges were involved. It was an odd situation, to say the least.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I have never, ever in my 35 active years as a mormon, ever been taught “I get to be a God on my own planet”

Ditto (but, I have been an active Mormon much longer than 35 years.)

Maybe this will help jog your memories…

Currently being taught to seminary students:

On page 90 (chapter five) of the correlated manual titled Presidents of the Church Student Manual: Religion 345 (2004), under the subheading, “They Shall Organize Worlds and Rule Over Them,” it states:

“Only a short time before his death, President Snow visited the Brigham Young University [then Brigham Young Academy], at Provo. President Brimhall escorted the party through one of the buildings; he wanted to reach the assembly room as soon as possible, as the students had already gathered. They were going through one of the kindergarten rooms; President Brimhall had reached the door and was about to open it and go on when President Snow said: ‘Wait a moment, President Brimhall, I want to see these children at work; what are they doing?’ Brother Brimhall replied that they were making clay spheres. ‘That is very interesting,’ the President said. ‘I want to watch them.’ He quietly watched the children for several minutes and then lifted a little girl, perhaps six years of age, and stood her on a table. He then took the clay sphere from her hand, and, turning to Brother Brimhall, said: ‘President Brimhall, these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods.’ (Snow, Improvement Era, June 1919, 658–59).”

“We are the offspring of God, born with the same faculties and powers as He possesses, capable of enlargement through the experience that we are now passing through in our second estate… He has begotten us in His own image. He has given us faculties and powers that are capable of enlargement until His fullness is reached which He has promised — until we shall sit upon thrones, governing and controlling our posterity from eternity to eternity, and increasing eternally.” (Millennial Star 56:772, October 5, 1894)

“When two Latter-day Saints are united together in marriage, promises are made to them concerning their offspring that reach from eternity to eternity. They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring, worlds without end. And what offspring they do not have here, undoubtedly there will be opportunities to have them hereafter. What else could man wish? A man and a woman, in the other life, having celestial bodies, free from sickness and disease, glorified and beautified beyond description, standing in the midst of their posterity, governing and controlling them, administering life, exaltation and glory worlds without end” (Deseret News, 13 Mar. 1897; quoted by Spencer W. Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 246; See also Lesson 10 of The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A).

31 years ago

“We educate ourselves in the secular field and in the spiritual field so that we may one day create worlds, people and govern them.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386).

The above was quoted in the LDS Church News 12 years ago, here.

and 11.5 years ago in the Oct 2002 Ensign, here

and NOW currently featured as a quote at seminary.lds.org, here.

37 years ago:

“The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. In other words, we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:48, quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 1976, p.132)

“Each one of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and god. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness, to govern such a world with all of its people.” (“. . . the Matter of Marriage” [address delivered at University of Utah Institute of Religion, 22 Oct. 1976], 2).

The above quoted is currently in an LDS teaching manual, here.

There’s more, but I think that will do.

 

[twopekinguys]

Maybe this will help jog your memories…

Currently being taught to seminary students:

On page 90 (chapter five) of the correlated manual titled Presidents of the Church Student Manual: Religion 345 (2004), under the subheading, “They Shall Organize Worlds and Rule Over Them,” it states:

“Only a short time before his death, President Snow visited the Brigham Young University [then Brigham Young Academy], at Provo. President Brimhall escorted the party through one of the buildings; he wanted to reach the assembly room as soon as possible, as the students had already gathered. They were going through one of the kindergarten rooms; President Brimhall had reached the door and was about to open it and go on when President Snow said: ‘Wait a moment, President Brimhall, I want to see these children at work; what are they doing?’ Brother Brimhall replied that they were making clay spheres. ‘That is very interesting,’ the President said. ‘I want to watch them.’ He quietly watched the children for several minutes and then lifted a little girl, perhaps six years of age, and stood her on a table. He then took the clay sphere from her hand, and, turning to Brother Brimhall, said: ‘President Brimhall, these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods.’ (Snow, Improvement Era, June 1919, 658–59).”

“We are the offspring of God, born with the same faculties and powers as He possesses, capable of enlargement through the experience that we are now passing through in our second estate… He has begotten us in His own image. He has given us faculties and powers that are capable of enlargement until His fullness is reached which He has promised — until we shall sit upon thrones, governing and controlling our posterity from eternity to eternity, and increasing eternally.” (Millennial Star 56:772, October 5, 1894)

“When two Latter-day Saints are united together in marriage, promises are made to them concerning their offspring that reach from eternity to eternity. They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring, worlds without end. And what offspring they do not have here, undoubtedly there will be opportunities to have them hereafter. What else could man wish? A man and a woman, in the other life, having celestial bodies, free from sickness and disease, glorified and beautified beyond description, standing in the midst of their posterity, governing and controlling them, administering life, exaltation and glory worlds without end” (Deseret News, 13 Mar. 1897; quoted by Spencer W. Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 246; See also Lesson 10 of The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A).

31 years ago

The above was quoted in the LDS Church News 12 years ago, here.

and 11.5 years ago in the Oct 2002 Ensign, here

and NOW currently featured as a quote at seminary.lds.org, here.

37 years ago:

“The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. In other words, we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:48, quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 1976, p.132)

The above quoted is currently in an LDS teaching manual, here.

There’s more, but I think that will do.

Very impressive.

In addition to bringing the whole “we get our own planet” situation to light, you have proven how haphazardly mormons deal with their doctrine.

With no centralized teaching authority, and no consistency, and no qualified clergy, most mormons don’t even know their own teachings and doctrine.

How many times have we been told the whole “we get our own planet” thing was made up/garbage?

Truly amazing, and dismaying at the same time.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Very impressive.

In addition to bringing the whole “we get our own planet” situation to light, you have proven how haphazardly mormons deal with their doctrine.

With no centralized teaching authority, and no consistency, and no qualified clergy, most mormons don’t even know their own teachings and doctrine.

How many times have we been told the whole “we get our own planet” thing was made up/garbage?

Truly amazing, and dismaying at the same time.

That’s because their own church denies this teaching (while teaching it). From an official LDS church FAQ, here:

*Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).*

Emphasis mine.

LDS seem to do this with the blatantly non-Christian teachings: Deny it is taught or believed, attribute the teachings to anti-Mormon propaganda, while all the while, teaching it to each other. But, let’s call it a misunderstanding!

 

[Nicea325]

That’s because their own church denies this teaching (while teaching it). From an official LDS church FAQ, here:

*Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding* stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

Emphasis mine.

LDS seem to do this with the blatantly non-Christian teachings: Deny it is taught or believed, attribute the teachings to anti-Mormon propaganda, while all the while, teaching it to each other. But, let’s call it a misunderstanding!

What a kooky religion.

 

[twopekinguys]

That’s because their own church denies this teaching (while teaching it). From an official LDS church FAQ, here:

*Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding* stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

Emphasis mine.

LDS seem to do this with the blatantly non-Christian teachings: Deny it is taught or believed, attribute the teachings to anti-Mormon propaganda, while all the while, teaching it to each other. But, let’s call it a misunderstanding!

More proof of lying for the Lord.

It just baffles me how the rank and file are OK with blatant lies from their leadership. Which this type of thing definitely falls into that category. There is no reasonable person that could look at this as an “oops” issue.

Faith doesn’t mean you don’t use your reasoning skills.

 

[TexanKnight]

Funny how silent the Mormons get when proven wrong using the words of their alleged prophets and apostles…

 

[Nicea325]

Funny how silent the Mormons get when proven wrong using the words of their alleged prophets and apostles…

Remember my friend, it is only their “opinion” as someone has stated numerous times here.