Why would anyone want to be a Mormon or Jehovah Witnesses?

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RebeccaJ said:
Maybe this will help jog your memories…

Currently being taught to seminary students:

On page 90 (chapter five) of the correlated manual titled Presidents of the Church Student Manual: Religion 345 (2004), under the subheading, “They Shall Organize Worlds and Rule Over Them,” it states:

“Only a short time before his death, President Snow visited the Brigham Young University [then Brigham Young Academy], at Provo. President Brimhall escorted the party through one of the buildings; he wanted to reach the assembly room as soon as possible, as the students had already gathered. They were going through one of the kindergarten rooms; President Brimhall had reached the door and was about to open it and go on when President Snow said: ‘Wait a moment, President Brimhall, I want to see these children at work; what are they doing?’ Brother Brimhall replied that they were making clay spheres. ‘That is very interesting,’ the President said. ‘I want to watch them.’ He quietly watched the children for several minutes and then lifted a little girl, perhaps six years of age, and stood her on a table. He then took the clay sphere from her hand, and, turning to Brother Brimhall, said: ‘President Brimhall, these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods.’ (Snow, Improvement Era, June 1919, 658–59).”

“We are the offspring of God, born with the same faculties and powers as He possesses, capable of enlargement through the experience that we are now passing through in our second estate… He has begotten us in His own image. He has given us faculties and powers that are capable of enlargement until His fullness is reached which He has promised — until we shall sit upon thrones, governing and controlling our posterity from eternity to eternity, and increasing eternally.” (Millennial Star 56:772, October 5, 1894)

“When two Latter-day Saints are united together in marriage, promises are made to them concerning their offspring that reach from eternity to eternity. They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring, worlds without end. And what offspring they do not have here, undoubtedly there will be opportunities to have them hereafter. What else could man wish? A man and a woman, in the other life, having celestial bodies, free from sickness and disease, glorified and beautified beyond description, standing in the midst of their posterity, governing and controlling them, administering life, exaltation and glory worlds without end” (Deseret News, 13 Mar. 1897; quoted by Spencer W. Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 246; See also Lesson 10 of The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A).

31 years ago

“The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. In other words, we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:48, quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 1976, p.132)

There’s more, but I think that will do.
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Yes, but where does it say I only get one planet?😃

Seriously, I have no objections to the above quotations. Because they do not trivialize our understanding of eternity. They are not taken out of context and they give an explanation to what is means to be heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ:

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Romans 8:16-17)

It does sound pretty silly to hear that Mormons believe that “I get to be a god on my own planet.” And, I have never heard that taught at church. It is never taught in a way to make the doctrine sound silly. Or, to make it sound like we go to church each week to hear how exciting it will be to have our own planet and how much fun it will be to populate it! (which is the impression given in anti-mormon literature).

We believe in life eternal. Eternity is a long, long, long, long time. So then, what will we be doing for all eternity?
 
Nicea325 said:
This is the issue many have with Mormons and JW’s, they will deny their “teachings” do not change, but when presented with evidence, they will flat out deny it. :confused:
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I think it is like this: Mormonism is like a train, that makes many stops along the way. People who got on the train at stop ‘A’, were taught a set of beliefs. As the train travels, the people doing the teaching change what they were teaching at stop ‘A’, sometimes dramatically, sometimes slightly. People who then get on at stop ‘H’, get taught differently than those who got on the train at stop ‘A’. Since the people who got on at “H”, didn’t experience or hear the teachings that were taught before stop “H”, they aren’t aware of them and have been taught to say, about these teachings, “those were opinions”.

The most interesting thing to me, are those that got on at stop “A”, who insist the teachings on the train never changed. What was taught, just plain and simply in their minds, was not taught.

I think some do lie, though I don’t think they view it as lying, but as giving out information carefully, so as to not shock the newcomers and observers of the train. But mainly, I see the people who got on the train at the “A” stop have convinced themselves “those things were never taught” and are on board with the “those were opinions”. I think it is the most amazing thing!! If it happened just once, I’d think it was a one-person anomaly, but it’s almost every single LDS member who say they got on the train at stop “A”, who deny what they were taught when they got on! How does this happen?

Sometimes, a jog of the memory might be useful.
 
mtolympus said:
Yes, but where does it say I only get one planet?😃

Seriously, I have no objections to the above quotations. Because they do not trivialize our understanding of eternity. They are not taken out of context and they give an explanation to what is means to be heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ:

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Romans 8:16-17)

It does sound pretty silly to hear that Mormons believe that “I get to be a god on my own planet.” And, I have never heard that taught at church. It is never taught in a way to make the doctrine sound silly. Or, to make it sound like we go to church each week to hear how exciting it will be to have our own planet and how much fun it will be to populate it! (which is the impression given in anti-mormon literature).
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So, you’re previous denial wasn’t truthful?

You need to dump this, and come to Christ, and not for reasons of material possessions like planets. We are joint heirs with Christ, no where does Christ say that means we will be gods over worlds with offspring who populate those worlds. THAT comes from the imagination of Joseph Smith.
We believe in life eternal. Eternity is a long, long, long, long time. So then, what will we be doing for all eternity?
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Worshipping God, for one, beyond that, no one knows. We do know that we are not Gods. To believe that you will be a god, with planets and your offspring worshipping you is not silly, it is blasphemous. There is ONE God, and you buddy, aren’t God.
 
mtolympus said:
Yes, but where does it say I only get one planet?😃

Seriously, I have no objections to the above quotations. Because they do not trivialize our understanding of eternity. They are not taken out of context and they give an explanation to what is means to be heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ:

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Romans 8:16-17)

It does sound pretty silly to hear that Mormons believe that “I get to be a god on my own planet.” And, I have never heard that taught at church. It is never taught in a way to make the doctrine sound silly. Or, to make it sound like we go to church each week to hear how exciting it will be to have our own planet and how much fun it will be to populate it! (which is the impression given in anti-mormon literature).

We believe in life eternal. Eternity is a long, long, long, long time. So then, what will we be doing for all eternity?
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Not being gods that is for sure. There is only ONE God who reigns,not a bunch of mini-gods ruling their own realms.
 
So you DO believe that, you just disagreed with the connotation we used…?

In most circles, that’s called lying. I’ve been there, done that… A friend saw that goofy animated clip on YouTube and asked me about it. I watched it, and outright denied most of the stuff in it because I felt SO SILLY admitting that it was the truth.
The thing is that it was true. Not colored in a complimentary way, but it was the truth.

Your religion should never embarrass you to the point of you having to deny it to continue appearing sane.
 
Nicea325 said:
This is the issue many have with Mormons and JW’s, they will deny their “teachings” do not change, but when presented with evidence, they will flat out deny it. :confused:
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It is frustrating to say the least. How these folks continue to align themselves with false religions baffles me 🤷
 
Joint-heirs? Sure sounds nice. Being gods? Ill pass because the Bible states there is only one God and He is to be praised and honored above all else. Will we be God-like? Yup. We will be without sin and will never die. We will not inherit a planet(s) and have kids and a wife, thats a man-made idea. So if you believe in the real Jesus Christ, why do you lds follow smith? Wouldnt it give you a clue to who smith was when he said “he has done more for the church than Christ or the Apostles”? Smith was in it for himself and if he had a true vision from Christ then he wouldnt have said such a thing. (That could become a new thread :hmmm:)
 
RebeccaJ said:
Maybe this will help jog your memories…

Currently being taught to seminary students.

On page 90 (chapter five) of the correlated manual titled Presidents of the Church Student Manual: Religion 345 (2004), under the subheading, “They Shall Organize Worlds and Rule Over Them,” it states:

“Only a short time before his death, President Snow visited the Brigham Young University [then Brigham Young Academy], at Provo. President Brimhall escorted the party through one of the buildings; he wanted to reach the assembly room as soon as possible, as the students had already gathered. They were going through one of the kindergarten rooms; President Brimhall had reached the door and was about to open it and go on when President Snow said: ‘Wait a moment, President Brimhall, I want to see these children at work; what are they doing?’ Brother Brimhall replied that they were making clay spheres. ‘That is very interesting,’ the President said. ‘I want to watch them.’ He quietly watched the children for several minutes and then lifted a little girl, perhaps six years of age, and stood her on a table. He then took the clay sphere from her hand, and, turning to Brother Brimhall, said: ‘President Brimhall, these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods.’ (Snow, Improvement Era, June 1919, 658–59).”

“We are the offspring of God, born with the same faculties and powers as He possesses, capable of enlargement through the experience that we are now passing through in our second estate… He has begotten us in His own image. He has given us faculties and powers that are capable of enlargement until His fullness is reached which He has promised — until we shall sit upon thrones, governing and controlling our posterity from eternity to eternity, and increasing eternally.” (Millennial Star 56:772, October 5, 1894)

“When two Latter-day Saints are united together in marriage, promises are made to them concerning their offspring that reach from eternity to eternity. They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring, worlds without end. And what offspring they do not have here, undoubtedly there will be opportunities to have them hereafter. What else could man wish? A man and a woman, in the other life, having celestial bodies, free from sickness and disease, glorified and beautified beyond description, standing in the midst of their posterity, governing and controlling them, administering life, exaltation and glory worlds without end” (Deseret News, 13 Mar. 1897; quoted by Spencer W. Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 246; See also Lesson 10 of The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A).
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What strikes me is that in all of this there is no mention of the true purpose for being in heaven and that is to live with and worship God. The focus here is not at all about spending eternity with our Lord, but rather all the cool stuff one will be able to do. Unbelievable.
 
SteveVH said:
What strikes me is that in all of this there is no mention of the true purpose for being in heaven and that is to live with and worship God. The focus here is not at all about spending eternity with our Lord, but rather all the cool stuff one will be able to do. Unbelievable.
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Goes to show where there true intentions lie? Most certainly does not seem about God,but yet cloaked with smoke screens of “We love God and Jesus.”
 
SpeSalvi said:
So you DO believe that, you just disagreed with the connotation we used…?

In most circles, that’s called lying. I’ve been there, done that… A friend saw that goofy animated clip on YouTube and asked me about it. I watched it, and outright denied most of the stuff in it because I felt SO SILLY admitting that it was the truth.
The thing is that it was true. Not colored in a complimentary way, but it was the truth.

Your religion should never embarrass you to the point of you having to deny it to continue appearing sane.
Click to expand...
How sad…truly sad.😦
 
mtolympus said:
Yes, but where does it say I only get one planet?😃

Seriously, I have no objections to the above quotations. Because they do not trivialize our understanding of eternity. They are not taken out of context and they give an explanation to what is means to be heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ:

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Romans 8:16-17)

It does sound pretty silly to hear that Mormons believe that “I get to be a god on my own planet.” And, I have never heard that taught at church. It is never taught in a way to make the doctrine sound silly. Or, to make it sound like we go to church each week to hear how exciting it will be to have our own planet and how much fun it will be to populate it! (which is the impression given in anti-mormon literature).

We believe in life eternal. Eternity is a long, long, long, long time. So then, what will we be doing for all eternity?
Click to expand...
I posted quotes that were clear that your leaders have taught you DO get a planet…why do you ignore your prophets?
 
In the words of Rodney King, “Can’t we all just get along?”
We don’t need to tear eachother down; especially in the name of God. This is I believe,what He is referring to in the Commandment to not take His name in vain.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Maybe this will help jog your memories…

Currently being taught to seminary students:
Click to expand...
The problem I have with those quotes is that they sell Mormonism short. What the Lord himself has said about the state of exaltation is far more impressive than creating planets ruling over them. This is what the Lord has revealed in his own words:

“And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptised after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
“That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is eordained and sealed unto this power;
“And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
“They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
“They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—
“They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
“And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the corder of the Only Begotten Son.
“Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
“Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
“And they shall overcome all things.
“Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
“These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
“These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
“These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
“These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.
“These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
“These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.
“These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.
“These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
“These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.” (D&C 76:50–70)

“And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.
“For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.” (D&C 132:19–22)

I like to teach true doctrine in God’s own words, rather than rephrase them in my own, which is what these quotes are trying to do.
 
mathonihah said:
The problem I have with those quotes is that they sell Mormonism short. What the Lord himself has said about the state of exaltation is far more impressive than creating planets ruling over them. This is what the Lord has revealed in his own words:

“And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptised after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
“That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is eordained and sealed unto this power;
“And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
“They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
“They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—
“They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
“And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the corder of the Only Begotten Son.
“Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
“Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
“And they shall overcome all things.
“Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
“These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
“These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
“These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
“These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.
“These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
“These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.
“These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.
“These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
“These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.” (D&C 76:50–70)

“And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.
“For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.” (D&C 132:19–22)

I like to teach true doctrine in God’s own words, rather than rephrase them in my own, which is what these quotes are trying to do.
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Isn’t D&C 132 the one about Polygamy?

Not really a good reference.

Actually, the D&C is not a good reference for much since it obviously biased.

Another reason it can’t be doctrine is because it is false, and part of what you claim to be a “restoration”. Which, as we have discussed, there is/was no need for a “restoration”, because, A) Christ didn’t lie. B) Christ didn’t leave his Church C) The Gates of Hell have not prevailed against his Church (Catholic)

Good try though.
 
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