Why would anyone want to be a Mormon or Jehovah Witnesses?

[mathonihah]

in mormonism, the father and son are human beings.

They are not “human beings” as we understand the term, i.e. as mortals.

is the holy spirit a human being?

The Holy Spirit is a personage of Spirit in the human form.

is the holy spirit a physical being?

He is a spirit being, as we are in the spirit, or as Jesus was before he was incarnated.

where did the holy spirit come from?

He is a spirit creation of God, just as our spirits are.

the son is procreated by the father, but what is the holy spirit’s origin?

You are making loaded statements. “Procreated by the Father” has lots of meaning, which I may not be agreeing with.

when was the holy spirit created?

In the preexistence. Unfortunately I don’t know his birthday.

is there a separate holy spirit for every heavenly father?

There is only one Heavenly Father. There is no such thing as “every heavenly father”.

 

[zaffiroborant]

We don’t “smear” anybody. You are again widening the meaning of that passage in the First Vision too far. It referred to a very localized event, at a very specific point in time, and to a very select group of aggressive, ultra-conservative, Protestant sects. It does not mean that that is how the Lord views every Christian minister today.

It does not refer to a specific time and select group, these words are still used today to explain the so called great apostasy. If creeds were an abomination and those who profess them corrupt then, the creeds are still an abomination and those who currently profess them are corrupt.

 

[eddie_too]

the heavenly father did not have a heavenly father? where did he come from?

 

[eddie_too]

according to mormon teachings is this planet the only world where physical, mortal human beings exist?

 

[eddie_too]

i thought the mormons teach that Jesus was incarnated by the heavenly father having coitus with the Virgin Mary? is the physical appearance of the mormon’s holy spirit male or female or something else?

 

[zaffiroborant]

In Mormonism to be deified, or becoming God (equivalent to your theosis), means that one is “saved,” or exalted. That means that he achieves salvation in the highest order in the celestial kingdom of God. It is simply a doctrine of salvation. You have to be “deified” in order to be saved. There is no such thing as “the world to which he is god”. That is not what it means to be exalted, or be deified.

It is not the equivalent to theosis, read Jordan Vajda’s thesis on theosis and exaltation. It’s available on the BYU website here.

 

[mathonihah]

Nope! Here are your own words verbatim:

No “reason” is required; or the faith itself is the reason. The witness of the Spirit becomes the reason.

You like your notorious Joe are endless contradictions.

My reason is the testimony of the Holy Ghost. Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

[mathonihah]

Fine. My testimony of the Holy Ghost proves to me, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the Mormon church is a cult.

Prove me wrong. How are you right, and I am wrong, if the same Holy Spirit provides testimony to both of us?

I cannot prove you wrong, neither am I trying to prove to you that I am right.

 

[mathonihah]

Yes, it is blind faith otherwise you could complete this sentence: I have a testimony for the truth of the Book of Mormon because _____________. And the blank would be filled with an objective fact.

Wrong. From my perspective, the testimony of the Holy Ghost is as strong an evidence as anything can be.

 

[mathonihah]

Yes, DNA has proven Joseph Smith to have lied about what he said was true about the Book of Mormon.

No scientific data can prove the Book of Mormon false.

That is not an answer.

I believe it is true that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century document.
I believe it is true that the Book of Mormon is a work of American fiction.

How do you believe the Book of Mormon is true?

By the witness of the Holy Ghost.

 

[mathonihah]

Judge? ONLY God judges. Sorry,we do not become gods as Mormonsim teaches or…is that another lie or another altered Mormon teaching?

You are being evasive. You understand perfectly well what I am talking about.

 

[mathonihah]

He was either a liar, or he was deceived. Probably both.

You are welcome to that opinion.

 

[mathonihah]

Then you probably shouldn’t expect to recruit any new people to the Mormon “church” anytime soon.

It is one of the fastest growing religions in the world.

 

[mathonihah]

Sorry…a liar! Deception is very convincing…open your eyes.

You seem to be deliberately closing yours.

 

[mathonihah]

That is more than a little frightening, then.

It is actually very reassuring.

 

[RebeccaJ]

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom. 10:17)

No “reason” is required; or the faith itself is the reason. The witness of the Spirit becomes the reason.

Oh! You’ve provided an example. Let’s look at what Paul is saying in context. If you look at verses 13-15:

13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?
15 And how can people preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring [the] good news!”

So the reason here is given! Jesus Christ, which is the reason for our faith, and it is who we speak of when we are prepared to give reason for our hope. As Jesus Christ is hope. He is the reason.

What is the good news that is being preached and what reasons would you believe, or not believe?

 

[mathonihah]

And no science has proven it true-either…how is that starters?

I agree. The good news is that it doesn’t need to. God has promised to bear witness to its truth by His Spirit; and he has kept that promise to millions of Mormons.

 

[eddie_too]

i understand that you base your faith on what you perceive to be the holy spirit’s testimony to you.

however, if it is truly the Holy Spirit testifying, then what it causes you to believe should be rational, consistent and supported by evidence a human being can perceive and understand.

the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and cannot mislead. one of the ways people discern the testimony of the Holy Spirit is by how the testimony conforms to the reality of this world as well as to the Sacrificial Will of Jesus Christ.

the testimony which claims to be of the Holy Spirit must be tested. it must be tested by reality, by facts, by logic, by history, by science and by reason. if the testimony is of the Holy Spirit, it will be confirmed by all of the many facets (knowledge, wisdom, understanding, science, logic, reason, etc.) of reality.

the testimony of the Holy Spirit to finite and fallible human beings does not stand apart from all that makes us human. it does not stand alone. it stands along with this world in which we live. it cannot contradict what we know to be true through other faculties.

 

[mathonihah]

That’s unfortunate, but not unexpected. That, too, is unfortunate.

Read that in its context.

 

[mathonihah]

Where is the proof?

For me, the testimony itself is proof; for you, you must seek your own.