Why would God create those that He knew would end up in Hell

[JDaniel]

More garbage from Perplexity. :hey_bud:
Observe how Perplexity buries a “giant leap in logic” claim ( I shaded in red ) in the middle of his preposterous remarks,
then, assuming the careless reader has already accepted his “giant leap in logic”, he continues the argument to the unacceptable conclusion I shaded in blue which makes God look bad::::

So what does…
Suppose further that there are true propositions describing the eternal destination of every person who could be created
…mean?
**Nothing. Perplexity wants you to believe that propositions are predictive. They are not. They cannot predict something that will never happen because God makes it impossible to happen, in this case, by not creating the persons in question. **

Therefore, God cannot know the destination of people he never creates, as I indicated in an early post in this thread. It follows from this that he cannot avoid creating somebody knowing he will be damned. It follows because God doesn’t have two choices in the matter. There is only one: create people. ( or never create anybody! )

**And I think that should be enough to refute this ridiculous atheist’s argument. **

Empther:

Excellent analysis and excellent conclusion!

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

He didn’t.

Think of this: God is outside of time, every moment is now.

Now think of your life as a movie, an old fashioned movie with a reel of film, not a dvd. Frame by frame your life advances. You have seen the past, and you’re in the current frame, but you haven’t got to the end of the film. God, however, sees it now.

So…let’s say you stayed out too late last night, slept through all the morning Masses, and decide to skip the evening Mass because the Superbowl is on TV. That’s a Mortal Sin. The last frame in the movie of your life shows you in Hell.

But wait! Your conscience bothers you so you go to Confession next Saturday afternoon. You’re forgiven. Now the last frame of the movie of your life shows you in Heaven.

Two vastly different endings, same movie. And God saw both of them. Now. Which is the real ending? That depends on the scriptwriter: you. You can change the ending of the movie all the way up to the next-to-the-last frame.

Hard to wrap your brain around the “everything is now” concept, isn’t it? But that’s the best way I’ve been able to understand it. Just because you’re Hellbound doesn’t mean that you will still be tomorrow. That’s up to you exercising your free will.

If we were predestined, we’d be no more than chess pieces that God moved around for amusement. And there could be no sin, because, after all, we weren’t making the choices we made, it was all pre-determined by God. If there were no Sin, why did we get the 10 Commandments? It wouldn’t matter if we killed a man in cold blood just because we coveted his wife, our future was already determined, right?

I hope this makes sense to someone.

Richard:

It makes sense to me! Welcome to CAF, Richard.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

It was the role and the person:

How could Judas have done otherwise?

What would it mean for the salvation of mankind if Judas has decided he was NOT going to betray Jesus?

How could he have decided that when it seems Jesus has predestined it to happen? He says, I’m going to predict who is going to betray Me so you will know I am He?!?

That does seem awfully like predestination to me, and that Judas has no choice as his role was predetermined in the salvation play of mankind.

Sarah x

Sarah:

So you think that, from this, Christ determined the destiny of Judas the moment He handed him the bread? This implies that prior to that moment, there was no ill-intent in Judas. Ill-intent was infused in Judas, by Christ, at that moment. Hmmm? No, I don’t think so.

God bless,
jd

 

[atheistgirl]

Empther:

Excellent analysis and excellent conclusion!

God bless,
jd

If it is true God can not know the destiny of someone He has not created, and the creation process begins the moment the egg is fertilized by the sperm, at which point God DOES know the eternal destiny of this person, and there are millions of spontaneous abortions by natural biological means every day; if it’s true God does not stop loving someone, ever, yet He is now aware that if these cells grow to full term and result in a live birth, this person will end up going to hell, why not allow the woman’s body to naturally, spontaneously abort, thus allowing God to save the unborns soul, and allow them into heaven, rather than wait 90 years at the end of which He already knows this person is going to Hell?

This would still allow for people to live good and bad and mediocre lives, but ultimately return to God and seek forgiveness (which God would already know they were going to do) and thus end up in heaven, rather than creating someone, who, from the nano second of their creation, He knows He is going to condemn to Hell.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

This implies that prior to that moment, there was no ill-intent in Judas. Ill-intent was infused in Judas, by Christ, at that moment. Hmmm? No, I don’t think so.

God bless,
jd

The scripture passage says at the moment Jesus handed Judas the bread, satan entered him

26Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. 27As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

Prior to that

I can’t see any other way to read that other than Judas was predestined in his role in the salvation drama. And I can’t therefor see how it is right or fair for Judas to have passed down through the ages as a traitor, who sold the Saviour for 30 pieces of silver, when, from everything I’ve read, it HAD to happen that way, as it was predicted in scripture.

Sarah x

 

[shoe]

I think that God would not create a person “that He knew would end up in Hell.” God came to earth in the form of Jesus to save people from hell, not to send them there. Hell is basically a place of choice. It is a place for those people who have made the personal choice to separate themselves from God for all eternity. If God had not given mankind, as well as Lucifer and his angels, a free-will choice to either follow or reject Him, then hell probably would be non-existent.

 

[JDaniel]

If it is true God can not know the destiny of someone He has not created, and the creation process begins the moment the egg is fertilized by the sperm, at which point God DOES know the eternal destiny of this person,

Sarah:

It has been the centuries old conclusion of Catholic thought that Prime matter exists, and the act of creation is almost simultaneous with His creation of the creature’s Form.

and there are millions of spontaneous abortions by natural biological means every day; if it’s true God does not stop loving someone, ever, yet He is now aware that if these cells grow to full term and result in a live birth, this person will end up going to hell, why not allow the woman’s body to naturally, spontaneously abort, thus allowing God to save the unborns soul, and allow them into heaven, rather than wait 90 years at the end of which He already knows this person is going to Hell?

Did I just read one sentence?

This would still allow for people to live good and bad and mediocre lives, but ultimately return to God and seek forgiveness (which God would already know they were going to do) and thus end up in heaven, rather than creating someone, who, from the nano second of their creation, He knows He is going to condemn to Hell.

I’m not sure of your meaning, but, from the looks of what you wrote, seems sound. But, you are still conflating Infinite eternality with temporal time concepts. It’s tough to separate out the “temporal” from our thoughts, but, think it through some more and you will.

God bless,
jd

 

[atheistgirl]

I think that God would not create a person “that He knew would end up in Hell.” .

But He does doesn’t He? Because God knows everything, so from the moment God creates the person and the soul of that person, God knows this persons final destiny, whether it be heaven or hell.

And I have a hard time getting my head around any concept of an all loving God, who never stops loving His creation, who at the same time can create people who He knows ultimately, He will send to Hell.

One can argue that the person themselves send themselves to hell, because of their behavior, or whatever, but I’m not sure why a loving God would create someone, who’s sole purpose of being created, is to ultimately worship God in Heaven, to only then send that person to Hell.

It seems self defeating to me

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Did I just read one sentence?

Sorry!

I’m in free-flow as I’m trying to read and type here and tidy up some other stuff.

In my defence I submit I did use lots of commas and a semi-colon



Sarah x

 

[ivebeenshown]

I think a lot of the people that ask this question ask it from a view point of: “There was God, and God then decided to create people.”

That is simply not the case. God is not sequential, he is static.

 

[JDaniel]

The scripture passage says at the moment Jesus handed Judas the bread, satan entered him

Sarah:

But, that does not mean that Judas harbored no sinful intentions prior to satan entering him. Satan had been working on Judas all Judas’ life, just as he works on all of us.

I can’t see any other way to read that other than Judas was predestined in his role in the salvation drama. And I can’t therefor see how it is right or fair for Judas to have passed down through the ages as a traitor, who sold the Saviour for 30 pieces of silver, when, from everything I’ve read, it HAD to happen that way, as it was predicted in scripture.

Sarah x

One might improperly call that “predetermination.” But, although He knew (what Judas would do), there was no intentionality in God. The act (action) of betraying Christ is, in itself, not sinful. As Yppop would point out, it is merely the incrementation of s-points, and as such, is physically beautiful. It only becomes “sinful” precisely because of Judas’ concomitant intent. And Judas’ intent was all his own.

God bless,
jd

 

[tonyrey]

I think a lot of the people that ask this question ask it from a view point of: “There was God, and God then decided to create people.”

That is simply not the case. God is not sequential, he is static.

1. If God were static He couldn’t create anything
2. God is Love and Love is dynamic
3. God doesn’t change but He causes change
4. “In Him we live, move and have our being”

 

[JDaniel]

I think a lot of the people that ask this question ask it from a view point of: “There was God, and God then decided to create people.”

That is simply not the case. God is not sequential, he is static.

Iveneen:

Is that “revelatory?” Do we know that God cannot be ever-so-slightly sequential, without any motion whatsoever?

A few days ago, I posted, elsewhere in this forum, a couple of paragraphs from St. Thomas that depicted sequentiality without motion. That got me thinking about this. It reminded me of the fact that a “point” cannot be the start of a line. Why. Because, points will but stack up upon each other so as to be self-same. There can be no directionality in a point.

If God was “static,” then it would seem that all of His thinking would “stack up upon itself.” (I.e’, the later thoughts upon the earlier thoughts.) If we are even a tiny bit close to the image of God, I don’t see that as possibility.

As I mentioned, I am musing.

God bless,
jd

 

[tonyrey]

You’re jumping to conclusions, Sarah! It was only the* role ***

He had **already **decided of his own free will to betray Jesus.

What would it mean for the salvation of mankind if Judas has decided he was NOT going to betray Jesus?

It would mean that some one else would have betrayed Jesus. He had plenty of enemies…

How could he have decided that when it seems Jesus has predestined it to happen? He says, I’m going to predict who is going to betray Me so you will know I am He?!?

Prediction doesn’t entail causation.

That does seem awfully like predestination to me, and that Judas has no choice as his role was predetermined in the salvation play of mankind.

Only in your opinion…

It was only the** role **of traitor that was predicted and predestined. Judas committed suicide because he **regretted **what he had done and realised the enormity of his crime. Jesus said it would have been better if he had never been born because of the extreme mental torture Judas must have suffered knowing he had betrayed his Master and would be forever be despised as a traitor to the innocent Messiah who had trusted him implicitly. We are only damned if we feel no compunction for the evil we have done, are not willing to make amends to our victims and humbly ask forgiveness for the needless suffering we have caused…

Judas may well have been possessed when he went ahead with his decision to betray his Master but those who become possessed are generally responsible for making themselves vulnerable. In either case the prophecy was fulfilled to the letter - like many others. It was not for nothing that for hundreds of years the Jews had been expecting a Messiah to liberate them…

 

[atheistgirl]

It only becomes “sinful” precisely because of Judas’ concomitant intent. And Judas’ intent was all his own.

And God would know his intent, right?

Is it possible that Judas could have said, ‘‘I am not going to betray Jesus. Get behind me Satan!’’

Is it possible that NO ONE would have betrayed Jesus, and thus He would not have been crucified, and live to a ripe old age and die of natural causes?

No.

Jesus HAD to be sacrificed. God demanded it!

Jesus HAD to be betrayed and crucified - well, that’s my understanding anyhows.

So, it was predestined, and someone was predestined to do it.

How can it be any other way?

And if so, how can it be right to come down on Judas when he drew the short straw and was only playing out the role given to him from the moment he was conceived?

I take on board the comments regarding the Church not saying Judas is in hell.

But Judas is a much vilified character for betraying Jesus, his name has passed down as shorthand for a taitor, someone vile, without redeeming qualities, when, it seems to me, he could have done no other - as this was God’s plan for him, from the beginning!

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

It was only the** role **of traitor that was predicted and predestined.

And that role was to be played out by a person. So someone, Judas, or if not him, someone else, had to draw the short straw. Scripture and prophecy depended on it.

In either case the prophecy was fulfilled to the letter - like many others.

It could be no other way could it? Thus SOMEONE was PREDESTINED to betray the Savior?

Sarah x

 

[NicoleVentura]

I think the real question is, why would God create Lucifer?

Remember, Lucifer was the best angel in heaven who ended up becoming a rebel, tried to fight with God, and is now known as the devil for his evilness.

God is all knowing, so that means before Lucifer was created, God must of known he was going to try and defeat him.

Why would he create the angel Lucifer if he was going to cause evil?

 

[empther]

JDaniel:

Empther:

Excellent analysis and excellent conclusion!

God bless,
jd

Thanks, JD.

It’s not hard to refute these atheists because their arguments are built on sand.
You just have to take a little heat once in a while. These guys all hate my guts. Good!

 

[empther]

paul c,
from your post #31,

I think you understate the power of God. God certainly can do anything he wants. He is NOT limited to the choice of “Creating People, or Not creating people.” If he wanted to create ONLY people who would do his will, he most certainly could have.

I disagree.
People who would only do his will would not have free will. They would not be persons but robots. As such, they would not be doing his will in a meritorious way.

This seems to be confirmed by the rest of your own post.

This is all about our perception of Love. The church teaches that Love is voluntarily doing something for the good of others without expecting anything in return. So free will is a necessary component of love. God loves perfectly because he gives everything we have and we of course have nothing that we can offer God, since he is the creator of everything. People can only love if they have free will and if God made people who could only do his will, then there could be no love because there was no free will. God chose to make people who have the potential to love, which means that they must have free will and if the will is really free, then the potential for evil must exist. Every person therefore has the potential to do love or to hate. Those that learn to love will be saved, those that turn from God through sin will be condemned unless they repent.

To repeat your comment:

He is NOT limited to the choice of "Creating People, or Not creating people

When I say God has only one choice, I mean he doesn’t have the* second choice* of creating only those people he knows will be saved, because he can’t know that if he never creates them. It is no limitation on God’s omniscience that he doesn’t know the unknowable. There is nothing there to be known, if he doesn’t create somebody.

 

[JDaniel]

And God would know his intent, right?

Sarah:

At the precise moment of it! The idea that God is a “soothsayer” is simply incorrect. That’s due to some people’s inability to be able to analyze sequence without time.

Is it possible that Judas could have said, ‘‘I am not going to betray Jesus. Get behind me Satan!’’

Yes. Exactly; that’s the entire point.

Is it possible that NO ONE would have betrayed Jesus, and thus He would not have been crucified, and live to a ripe old age and die of natural causes?

No; there were many people around Christ that did not bode Him well.

Jesus HAD to be sacrificed. God demanded it!

Jesus HAD to be betrayed and crucified - well, that’s my understanding anyhows.

Yes, that true - except God didn’t “demand” it. God ordained it.

So, it was predestined, and someone was predestined to do it.

Why must it take pre-destination? Since God causes everything except man’s intentions, the word “predestination” is meaningless, in this context.

And if so, how can it be right to come down on Judas when he drew the short straw and was only playing out the role given to him from the moment he was conceived?

There is no “predestination” in this. God could have selected anyone around Him for the job. He selected a man who did it. At the very last instant, if Judas had said, “I will not do this,” the job would have fallen to someone else.

I take on board the comments regarding the Church not saying Judas is in hell.

That is correct. The Church recognizes that it cannot judge to that extent.

But Judas is a much vilified character for betraying Jesus, his name has passed down as shorthand for a taitor, someone vile, without redeeming qualities, when, it seems to me, he could have done no other - as this was God’s plan for him, from the beginning!

You are embellishing it with what is not there. Sarah, this idea is not that difficult to understand. You are still thinking of God in time. Think: God. Then think: no time because no motion. (Besides, where would an Infinite Being move to?) It is motion that necessitates a before and an after, a prior and a posterior. This has been an attribute of God since the earliest times. So it’s not something new. It derives from a correct view of “infinity.” Just think it through, Sarah.

God bless,
jd