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Anthony_V
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You are quite right. That’s just a warped version of double predestination.
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Anthony_V
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If I may so clarify, that’s Augustinianism and a hint of Thomism. There are also views like Molinism that are orthodox Catholic in nature.
calledtocommunion.com/2011/12/lawrence-feingold-on-sufficient-and-efficacious-grace/
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atheistgirl
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atheistgirl
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JDaniel, Paul C, and everyone else - thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut tonight.
As always, I shall go away and think (well, as much as I’m able!)!
It’s good having this forum to bounce things around on as there isn’t really anyone in real life I can really get into these things with.
Goodnight all.
Sarah x
As always, I shall go away and think (well, as much as I’m able!)!
It’s good having this forum to bounce things around on as there isn’t really anyone in real life I can really get into these things with.
Goodnight all.
Sarah x
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cjmclark
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A relevant point to consider (which has been raised already but I think was buried a few pages back) is that God does not condemn people to hell. Individuals, by their thoughts and deeds, willfully choose to separate themselves from God. Their “presence” in hell following their death is the result of God respecting their choice to remain separate, even though it must pain Him. God wants us to come to Him of our own free will. That’s why he gave it to us…otherwise he’s left with little more than slaves to His will.
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Pitcharan
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Unlike we humans, God is believed to be outside time. This means, His act of creation and some humans freely choosing Hell were simultaneous. So, there is no question of foreknowledge of hell-bound souls. The knowledge, the creation and the free-choice were all simultaneous.
You are reading too much out of a simple statement. The statement is applicable to every hell-bound soul: it would have been better if they were not born at all. It is told by our Lord while He was in human-form and hence trapped in time and merely laments Judas’ self-destruction.
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Perplexity
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Well, I guess it’s controversial. The position I’ve espoused above is molinism which says (inter alia) that that logically prior to God’s creative decree, he knew what any person would freely do in response to his grace. I’m kind of agnostic on the matter tbh, but one point in favor of the molinists is this: if God doesn’t know how persons would freely respond to his grace, until they do so, then God is not omniscient.
I agree that it’s bad theology; but, on different grounds. As noted above, this is just an augmented molinism, which has the machinery to deal with free-will. I’d say it’s bad theology along lines like these:
- If God exists, then God is morally perfect.
- If God is morally perfect, then he treats no person merely as a means to an end.
- God treats some persons merely as means to an end.
- Therefore, God isn’t morally perfect. (2), (3), M.T.]
- Therefore, God doesn’t exist. (1), (4), M.T.]
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tonyrey
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So you agree that it need not have been Judas…And that role was to be played out by a person.So someone, Judas, or if not him, someone else, had to draw the short straw. Scripture and prophecy depended on it.
It could be no other way could it? Thus SOMEONE was PREDESTINED to betray the Savior?
I have pointed out already - and it was made by Antony Flew a long time ago - that foresight does not entail causality. Therefore** no one **was predestined. Whoever betrayed Jesus would have chosen to do it. Unfortunately there is no shortage of treachery in the world… The reality of evil is a fact to be reckoned with - and it doesn’t have a natural explanation.
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Gorgias
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Wow… you’re having a bad day. You’ve moved from ad hominem attacks to statements that just don’t stand up logically.
If God only created those who would do his will, it would mean, a priori, that they have no free will? How do you get there? It doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Free will isn’t determined by one’s outcomes, it’s determined by one’s freedom to choose outcomes!
Here, you’re saying a few things that don’t stand up. Let’s look at the condition of the saved in heaven in the eschaton: they’re in the Beatific Vision, and they still have free will, but given their state, they have no desire to choose evil. Would you say that the fact that the saints all do God’s will in heaven means that they no longer have free will? No way!
In addition, the logical implication of your statement is that free will didn’t exist until someone disobeyed God – up until the Fall, there was no one who met the definition of “people who didn’t do God’s will”! That implies that part of the goodness of creation (i.e., free will) wasn’t part of God’s plan. That also seems to imply that Adam & Eve were “robots” until they disobeyed God. That dog just don’t hunt…
Like I said… better watch it!
You can’t claim this and still keep a firm grip on the difference between contingency of creation and God’s omniscience. God’s knowledge of all that will happen within the bounds of time is not limited by the existence of any particular person or thing within time!
It seems that you’re saying that, if I were to have a son, God wouldn’t know whether my son will be saved… until my son is conceived and God creates a soul for him! That does place an unreasonable limit on God’s omniscence!
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your point here. Does my “son” example fit what you’re saying – that God can’t know the disposition of anyone’s soul until He creates it?
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empther
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I’m really surprised at all the confusion about this little point. It’s really very simple.
Did Jesus know Judas would be a betrayer when he chose him to be one of the twelve original apostles? No.
While Jesus had divine personhood, he had a human body and soul. His human nature was finite. His human nature did not know everything. He couldn’t speak Chinese or program a computer. He didn’t need to.
Why didn’t the Father warn Jesus about Judas?
What would you have the Father do? Help Jesus avoid all threats to his life? Help him avoid betrayal by Judas, or execution by the Romans, or assassination by some religious fanatic, or murder by some band of bandits as he wandered around the country, or…etc etc etc.?
Jesus came into the world to die for our sins. How it happened didn’t matter. Judas chose how it happened, not the Romans, not some religious fanatic, not bandits,
but God did not predestine Judas to do it.
When the time for Christ’s death came near, the Father revealed more details to him. Then he knew what Judas was up to, but it was too late. What did you expect Jesus to do about it at that point? Whoever killed him would be guilty.
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Gorgias
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Me either.It never ceases to amaze me how confused people can get. How do they get it so wrong?
By arguing with people who are really confused, apparently!
Yes, unfortunately there is. You’re saying that God made a decision to create certain people, and that, having made that decision, He then (and only then) knew whether they’d be saved.
That can’t hold: it implies that God gained knowledge in the act of creation. If God gained knowledge, then it means that God changed. QED.
So, assent from any one other person is the standard of proof? Puh-leeze! :doh2:
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prodigalson2011
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Sorry, empther, but this is not in line with Catholic teaching at all. Jesus is both FULLY God (i.e. omniscient) and fully man. Recall the story of Nathaniel.
His human nature would affect only those things which are intrinsic to human physiology: growth, development of speech and motor skills, etc.
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Gorgias
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Hmm… So, John the Evangelist was lying, or maybe mistaken? (“Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.” John 6:64)
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paul_c
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Apparently not so simple. I think you are laboring under some misconceptions that I hope to help you clear up.
The Catholic Church definitely teaches that Jesus was both truly man AND truly divine. Here’s wha tthe catechism has to say about it:
Christ’s soul and his human knowledge
471 Apollinarius of Laodicaea asserted that in Christ the divine Word had replaced the soul or spirit. Against this error the Church confessed that the eternal Son also assumed a rational, human soul.
472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, “increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man”, and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience. This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking “the form of a slave”.
473 But at the same time, this truly human knowledge of God’s Son expressed the divine life of his person. “The human nature of God’s Son, not by itself but by its union with the Word, knew and showed forth in itself everything that pertains to God.” Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father. The Son in his human knowledge also showed the divine penetration he had into the secret thoughts of human hearts.
474 By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal.What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.
So you are probably right that Jesus couldn’t speak Chinese, but you are wrong to assume that he wouldn’t have known that Judas would betray him.
Again, God knows all things, but individuals always have a choice.
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JohnAlexander
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How exactly is God supposed to make someone disappear? That would require God to forget them which is not possible. Our existence is caused by God’s knowledge of us.A very good point! It could be argued that God should let the damned disappear rather than suffer for ever… (but destruction is inconsistent with God’s love).
Besides just because someone hates God does not mean that God hates them back. I think God still loves all his creation even those who are in Hell.
If you believe in God and you believe he is all knowing, all powerful, all good, etc. then you have to believe that whatever he does is best. Would the Universe be a better place if those destined for Hell ceased to exist when they died? What would be required for that to happen? We don’t know.
I do not doubt for one second that when we die God’s justice will be made clear. I don’t think anyone will be sad about those in Hell (nor will they gloat in other’s suffering as some atheists accuse Christians of doing).
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tonyrey
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If you doubt my last statement ask yourself whether science recognises the distinction between good and evil…So you agree that it need not have been Judas…
I have pointed out already - and it was made by Antony Flew a long time ago - that foresight does not entail causality. Therefore** no one **was predestined. Whoever betrayed Jesus would have chosen to do it. Unfortunately there is no shortage of treachery in the world… The reality of evil is a fact to be reckoned with - and it doesn’t have a natural explanation.
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tonyrey
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According to that argument God cannot make anything disappear - which seems inconsistent with His omnipotence. It is not God’s knowledge thatis the cause of our existence but His creative love.
Precisely!
He would have to will them to disappear but would He do that after having created them in His own image?
Some Christians seem to dwell with delight on the imaginary details of the torments of hell! Perhaps they wouldn’t be so keen if they thought it is their destination…
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ShadowWolf514
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Here is how I would answer this: I don’t believe that God knows what we are going to do. If he did what would be the point of free will? I could choose to reject God and his Church today (a foolish thing to do no doubt) and God would only see the intent that I am going to do this. He would not know whether I was going to reject him or not at this point at birth.
Those who go to Hell go there by their free will, and the reason why they go there and not just get taken out of existence by God is because it is just. The one who rejects God would be glad to be taken out of existence then going to Hell and missing their just punishment. Why should a person, who is evil, be allowed to miss their just punishment in this way?
It is important to note that only evil people go to Hell even if he did not seem evil to us on earth. For only God can rightly judge a person’s soul.
Those who go to Hell go there by their free will, and the reason why they go there and not just get taken out of existence by God is because it is just. The one who rejects God would be glad to be taken out of existence then going to Hell and missing their just punishment. Why should a person, who is evil, be allowed to miss their just punishment in this way?
It is important to note that only evil people go to Hell even if he did not seem evil to us on earth. For only God can rightly judge a person’s soul.
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empther
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Matthew ch 8
The Healing of a Centurion’s Servant.* 5c When he entered Capernaum,* a centurion approached him and appealed to him,
6saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, suffering dreadfully.”
7He said to him, “I will come and cure him.”
8The centurion said in reply,* “Lord, I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof; only say the word and my servant will be healed.
9For I too am a person subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come here,’ and he comes; and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10When Jesus heard this,** he was amazed** :bigyikes: and said to those following him, “Amen, I say to you, in no one in Israel* have I found such faith.
The human nature of Jesus did not know what the centurion would say, although the Son of God knows the exact past present and future location and velocity of every atom in the universe.
I don’t know why this simple idea is so hard for people to grasp.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, “increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man”, and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience. :bigyikes: This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking “the form of a slave”.
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paul_c
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You are missing an important point. God exists out of time. He sees yesterday, today and tomorrow all at once. So he knows what you are going to do. However, an important distinction is that he doesn’t force you to do it. It is still your own free choice.
yes, God is both merciful and just…
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