Why would God create those that He knew would end up in Hell

[Salient]

I know God gives us free will and respects it, so we have the option to choose heaven or hell.

However, why would God create humans (and even the fallen angels) if He knew they were going to reject Him and then suffer eternally in hell? I know that God loves everyone equally and beyond our imagination, so it makes Him sad to see their awful outcome after life. So wouldn’t He rather that those who do not love Him above everything else to just have never existed rather than be in hell?

A friend pointed out that if God didn’t create people or angels that would reject Him, we wouldn’t be able to see God’s true love as the the only people and angels that would exist would be the ones that love God above all else. You can’t truly understand, appreciate, or see light without there being darkness. Also, then there must be no evil, so then we probably wouldn’t be able to prove our love for God.

However, what about Jesus saying that it would have been better if Judas wasn’t born. He wanted Judas to truly love Him and gave Him the chance to do so, but wouldn’t he have rather that Judas never existed rather than for Judas to choose Hell (and then be separated from God)?

Is this considered one of the mysteries of God? Whatever and however He does things is obviously the best way but I suppose it may not be something we can always comprehend.

Thanks.

 

[empther]

God could not know somebody was going to hell unless he created him.

How could God know somebody he hever creates would have gone to hell?

This is just another self-contradiction question. God cannot make something be and not be at the same time.
If God knows somebody is going to hell, it is because the person is real. He exists at some time. If somebody were to never exist, than he would have no afterllife to be known and God couldn’t know what would happen to.

It’s a package deal. Either we have both the person’s creation and damnation, or neither.

 

[tonyrey]

God would prefer those who do not love Him not to have existed rather than be in hell! But He is the Creator not the Destroyer. Could you **kill **one of your children even if he or she rejects you and never contacts you again?

There is also the problem of the descendants of those who are in hell. They would have been deprived of the opportunity to exist through no fault of their own. Surely that
would be unjust…

The damned are damned because they **choose **to be absolutely independent and exist for themselves. Hell must have its compensations: otherwise it would be vacant. They suffer because they are separated from God but they have the pleasure and satisfaction of being subject to no higher authority. Their lust for power is almost satiated - but not quite. Ay, there’s the rub! The more they have the more they want… like drug addicts who hate their plight.

While there is life there is hope - even in hell. God makes the rules and with God all things are possible…

 

[tonyrey]

God could not know somebody was going to hell unless he created him.

How could God know somebody he never creates would have gone to hell?

This is just another self-contradiction question. God cannot make something be and not be at the same time.
If God knows somebody is going to hell, it is because the person is real. He exists at some time. If somebody were to never exist, than he would have no afterlife to be known and God couldn’t know what would happen to.

A very good point! It could be argued that God should let the damned disappear rather than suffer for ever… (but destruction is inconsistent with God’s love).

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Think of it this way.

In order for the economy to be possible somebody somewhere has got to work in assembly due to ignoring education, starve due to the world ignoring fair distribution of wealth, loose money due to making a stupid mistake, loose their wife, children or family due to being stupid, and on and on. In order for creation to be possible , that being humanity and the fun time in heaven…somebody somewhere has got to go to hell !

Otherwise none of this is possible:thumbsup:

Now don’t you feel special? I mean is there anything more important then you feeling special?

I will answer…of course not.

I donno about the wondering man.

( what century is this anyway?

 

[empther]

These remarks by FurtherSuntime are completely meaningless:

Think of it this way.

In order for the economy to be possible somebody somewhere has got to work in assembly due to ignoring education, starve due to the world ignoring fair distribution of wealth, loose money due to making a stupid mistake, loose their wife, children or family due to being stupid, and on and on.In order for creation to be possible , that being humanity and the fun time in heaven…somebody somewhere has got to go to hell !

Otherwise none of this is possible:thumbsup:

Now don’t you feel special? I mean is there anything more important then you feeling special?

I will answer…of course not.

I donno about the wondering man.

( what century is this anyway?

 

[Gorgias]

God could not know somebody was going to hell unless he created him.

Ouch! No.

What you’re saying is that that God gained knowledge when He created the universe – in other words, that God is mutable. That’s not in line with Catholic doctrine.

How could God know somebody he hever creates would have gone to hell?

That’s not the right question to ask. God is outside time: therefore, He knows everything that happens in creation from all eternity. There is no “somebody he never creates”.

You seem to be making an assertion about God’s perfection. Medieval philosophers would talk about what God did or didn’t do, and what God could or could not have done, and got stuck in some weird corners with that logic…

 

[JDaniel]

I know God gives us free will and respects it, so we have the option to choose heaven or hell.

However, why would God create humans (and even the fallen angels) if He knew they were going to reject Him and then suffer eternally in hell?

Salient:

Consider this: God is Infinite. That means He covers all of duration, no beginning and no end. Further, it means that He covers all magnitude. Since He creates, He can only know finite life forms, from the moment of their creation until their demise, in an instant (as far as we are concerned). As you state, He gives us free will, but, the free will we have is not perfect. How could it be? Only God’s Free Will is perfect.

As of the moment of conception He sees the entirety of a man’s life in an instant. Does it sadden Him that some men go the way of least preference? Of course it does. Each and every creation of God’s is an exceptionally special effort, beyond anything we can conceptualize. Each lost soul is an extraordinarily loving effort lost. A loving best friend lost forever. This sort of thing happens to all of us, but not nearly in as poignant a way.

However, He must continue creating. He is absolute fecundity. He has created for the entirety of the duration of real things. Really, I don’t know if He could stop creating. It is difficult for me to conceive of a cessation of creation. As Infinite, He has no limitation. He can create a multitude of beings beyond our imaginations. Consider just this universe!

So, He creates, but, like anyone with any sense at all, He wishes that what He creates be as fully free as is possible for limited creatures. Otherwise, all He would have surrounding Him is the inanimate. Consider this: would you or I wish that on ourselves?

God’s efforts are not frivolous, even though He controls all that we do (excluding our intentionalities), and it looks as though much of what we do is frivolous. He controls everything, good and bad. His purposes are purposes-unlimited. We consider and ponder and decide. He Knows and Wills without the limiting motion of consideration. But, He does not know what each of us will do until He creates us.

Primary Matter is, per Saint Thomas, likened to a repository. Each Form is a brand new created principle-of-differentiation. The merging of a Form with a hunk of Primary Matter such that it persists, is the “all” that God knows in His Eternal Instant - but, not before. (Despite some poor interpretations, due to our inability to exclude Time from our explanations.)

I know that God loves everyone equally and beyond our imagination, so it makes Him sad to see their awful outcome after life.

Yes. All the more reason to love Him relentlessly.

So wouldn’t He rather that those who do not love Him above everything else to just have never existed rather than be in hell?

What do you think?

A friend pointed out that if God didn’t create people or angels that would reject Him, we wouldn’t be able to see God’s true love as the the only people and angels that would exist would be the ones that love God above all else.

That is an excellent point.

You can’t truly understand, appreciate, or see light without there being darkness. Also, then there must be no evil, so then we probably wouldn’t be able to prove our love for God.

There is “good” and their is “Evil.” God does not create evil. God does not encourage evil. God creates everything except each human beings intentionality. It is only our intentionality which makes a thing, or an action, evil. A bullet leaving a gun and traveling perfectly toward its target is not only not evil, but also, it is material perfection, as best as it can be. The intent of the shooter colors such an exceptional action “evil.”

However, what about Jesus saying that it would have been better if Judas wasn’t born.

Wouldn’t you?

He wanted Judas to truly love Him and gave Him the chance to do so, but wouldn’t he have rather that Judas never existed rather than for Judas to choose Hell (and then be separated from God)?

Precisely.

Is this considered one of the mysteries of God?

Yes, because God has an infinity of purposes - but we don’t know what any particular purpose is. If God sees us going down the wrong path, He can remove possessions from us that He knows will force us see. He also knows the efficacy of His interventions instantly.

Whatever and however He does things is obviously the best way but I suppose it may not be something we can always comprehend.

Saints have.

God bless,
jd

 

[TomD123]

I know God gives us free will and respects it, so we have the option to choose heaven or hell.

However, why would God create humans (and even the fallen angels) if He knew they were going to reject Him and then suffer eternally in hell? I know that God loves everyone equally and beyond our imagination, so it makes Him sad to see their awful outcome after life. So wouldn’t He rather that those who do not love Him above everything else to just have never existed rather than be in hell?

A friend pointed out that if God didn’t create people or angels that would reject Him, we wouldn’t be able to see God’s true love as the the only people and angels that would exist would be the ones that love God above all else. You can’t truly understand, appreciate, or see light without there being darkness. Also, then there must be no evil, so then we probably wouldn’t be able to prove our love for God.

However, what about Jesus saying that it would have been better if Judas wasn’t born. He wanted Judas to truly love Him and gave Him the chance to do so, but wouldn’t he have rather that Judas never existed rather than for Judas to choose Hell (and then be separated from God)?

Is this considered one of the mysteries of God? Whatever and however He does things is obviously the best way but I suppose it may not be something we can always comprehend.

Thanks.

I think this is a tough question but I will do my best-
One answer as to why involves free will: Basically, if God were not to create anyone whom he foreknew would end up in hell, would there be any free will? What I mean is, if this was the case (God only creates those he knows will be saved), man CANNOT be damned, otherwise, he would not have been created. Nobody would really have the option to reject God because anyone who might have chosen to reject God has been denied existence, in other words, this rejection “option” has been knocked out because anyone who might choose it is not created, thus in reality the option is wiped out too.

Also, it makes our creation conditional and based on our foreseen choices.

Hopefully this is helpful
:twocents:

 

[FurtherSuntime]

These remarks by FurtherSuntime are completely meaningless:

Explain

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I think this is a tough question but I will do my best-
One answer as to why involves free will: Basically, if God were not to create anyone whom he foreknew would end up in hell, would there be any free will? What I mean is, if this was the case (God only creates those he knows will be saved), man CANNOT be damned, otherwise, he would not have been created. Nobody would really have the option to reject God because anyone who might have chosen to reject God has been denied existence, in other words, this rejection “option” has been knocked out because anyone who might choose it is not created, thus in reality the option is wiped out too.

Also, it makes our creation conditional and based on our foreseen choices.

Hopefully this is helpful
:twocents:

Its not tough if one has a backbone. So then…the Son is not like the Father then, the Father does not want to turn the other cheek…is that it? Make up your mind then, one cannot follow two opposing Gods …much less relatives.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Salient:

Consider this: God is Infinite. That means He covers all of duration, no beginning and no end. Further, it means that He covers all magnitude. Since He creates, He can only know finite life forms, from the moment of their creation until their demise, in an instant (as far as we are concerned). As you state, He gives us free will, but, the free will we have is not perfect. How could it be? Only God’s Free Will is perfect.

As of the moment of conception He sees the entirety of a man’s life in an instant. Does it sadden Him that some men go the way of least preference? Of course it does. Each and every creation of God’s is an exceptionally special effort, beyond anything we can conceptualize. Each lost soul is an extraordinarily loving effort lost. A loving best friend lost forever. This sort of thing happens to all of us, but not nearly in as poignant a way.

However, He must continue creating. He is absolute fecundity. He has created for the entirety of the duration of real things. Really, I don’t know if He could stop creating. It is difficult for me to conceive of a cessation of creation. As Infinite, He has no limitation. He can create a multitude of beings beyond our imaginations. Consider just this universe!

So, He creates, but, like anyone with any sense at all, He wishes that what He creates be as fully free as is possible for limited creatures. Otherwise, all He would have surrounding Him is the inanimate. Consider this: would you or I wish that on ourselves?

God’s efforts are not frivolous, even though He controls all that we do (excluding our intentionalities), and it looks as though much of what we do is frivolous. He controls everything, good and bad. His purposes are purposes-unlimited. We consider and ponder and decide. He Knows and Wills without the limiting motion of consideration. But, He does not know what each of us will do until He creates us.

Primary Matter is, per Saint Thomas, likened to a repository. Each Form is a brand new created principle-of-differentiation. The merging of a Form with a hunk of Primary Matter such that it persists, is the “all” that God knows in His Eternal Instant - but, not before. (Despite some poor interpretations, due to our inability to exclude Time from our explanations.)

Yes. All the more reason to love Him relentlessly.

What do you think?

That is an excellent point.

There is “good” and their is “Evil.” God does not create evil. God does not encourage evil. God creates everything except each human beings intentionality. It is only our intentionality which makes a thing, or an action, evil. A bullet leaving a gun and traveling perfectly toward its target is not only not evil, but also, it is material perfection, as best as it can be. The intent of the shooter colors such an exceptional action “evil.”

Wouldn’t you?

Precisely.

Yes, because God has an infinity of purposes - but we don’t know what any particular purpose is. If God sees us going down the wrong path, He can remove possessions from us that He knows will force us see. He also knows the efficacy of His interventions instantly.

Saints have.

God bless,
jd

If it takes you this long to explain justice then…how do you… expect even a toddler to swallow the non-sense.?

 

[atheistgirl]

God would prefer those who do not love Him not to have existed rather than be in hell! But He is the Creator not the Destroyer. Could you **kill **one of your children even if he or she rejects you and never contacts you again?.

No. I could not. But neither would I stand by and shrug my shoulders and say ‘tough, you made your bed, now lie in it’. I would do everything in my power, in this life and beyond the grave (for example by leaving money in trust to be mamaged for their care so they would be safe and healthy). I would never stop loving my child. Ever. And that love would prevent me from ever condoning any idea that they would suffer for an eternity!

However, what about Jesus saying that it would have been better if Judas wasn’t born. He wanted Judas to truly love Him and gave Him the chance to do so, but wouldn’t he have rather that Judas never existed rather than for Judas to choose Hell (and then be separated from God)?.

Jesus came to earth, to save mankind. That is my understanding. This salvation - approved by God - required that Jesus be sacrificed on a cross and suffer the most horrific torture and death. As part of this process, he was required to be betrayed, and Jesus even spoke about this in advance.

Judas was therefor just playing the part alloted to him from the beginning of time, as God knows all things.

I have never understood then why Judas should suffer in hell for eternity, when it would appear his role was predicted and predestined.

Sarah x

 

[PeterGStanley]

Bloodlines are very important as we can see in the Bible - possibly if God knew a person was going to choose not to follow God’s will and murder , pray to false Gods and so on ( freewill ) one or many of this persons descendent could do the exact opposite and live lives dedicated to God and could be very important in Gods plan…By not creating this person God would wipe out all descendent of this person. Its Freewill that decide your fate with God. Who knows who your descendent will be and what role they play but God.

 

[paul_c]

I think this is a tough question but I will do my best-
One answer as to why involves free will: Basically, if God were not to create anyone whom he foreknew would end up in hell, would there be any free will? What I mean is, if this was the case (God only creates those he knows will be saved), man CANNOT be damned, otherwise, he would not have been created. Nobody would really have the option to reject God because anyone who might have chosen to reject God has been denied existence, in other words, this rejection “option” has been knocked out because anyone who might choose it is not created, thus in reality the option is wiped out too.

Also, it makes our creation conditional and based on our foreseen choices.

Hopefully this is helpful
:twocents:

I think this is a pretty good answer. I would clarify further that although God knows who will turn away from him and ultimately be condemned, it is still up to that person to make that choice. By denying the sinful man his existence, God would also be denying that man his chance to be saved.

Further, it should be pointed out that every man’s life touches many others. Even the sinful man is part of God’s ultimate plan. Even though we might not be able to see how he fits in, rest assured he had a purpose.

 

[JDaniel]

If it takes you this long to explain justice then…how do you… expect even a toddler to swallow the non-sense.?

FS:

Was I talking to you?

God bless,
jd

 

[prodigalson2011]

No. I could not. But neither would I stand by and shrug my shoulders and say ‘tough, you made your bed, now lie in it’. I would do everything in my power, in this life and beyond the grave (for example by leaving money in trust to be mamaged for their care so they would be safe and healthy). I would never stop loving my child. Ever. And that love would prevent me from ever condoning any idea that they would suffer for an eternity.

Jesus came to earth, to save mankind. That is my understanding. This salvation - approved by God - required that Jesus be sacrificed on a cross and suffer the most horrific torture and death. As part of this process, he was required to be betrayed, and Jesus even spoke about this in advance.

Judas was therefor just playing the part alloted to him from the beginning of time, as God knows all things.

I have never understood then why Judas should suffer in hell for eternity, when it would appear his role was predicted and predestined.

Sarah x

God never does stop loving; He is, by nature, pure love. He did plenty to save His children. Not only did He take on our very fragile form and all the pains, maladies, fears, sorrows and anxieties that come with it, He also revealed to us the perfection of love and, implicitly, ourselves. Then, as you noted, He subjected himself to the most excruciating agony imaginable, all for no other reason than to win our love. Still, He is not a tyrant and he does not demand it. If we choose, willingly (barring invincible ignorance), to reject Him, He must, in His perfect love and justice, respect that decision.

Also:
The Church has never declared that Judas is in hell. He could have repented as well as anyone else. However, his suicide suggests he despaired of God’s mercy. Even so, we cannot say what was his posthumous fortune.

 

[paul_c]

No. I could not. But neither would I stand by and shrug my shoulders and say ‘tough, you made your bed, now lie in it’. I would do everything in my power, in this life and beyond the grave (for example by leaving money in trust to be mamaged for their care so they would be safe and healthy). I would never stop loving my child. Ever. And that love would prevent me from ever condoning any idea that they would suffer for an eternity!

Sarah, Like you, God never would stop loving his child. That’s not the problem. The problem is that the child stopped loving God and felt it was better to be on their own.
You see, those that go to hell, do so because they do not desire to be in God’s presence. Because God truly loves them, he allows them to turn from him and to chose Hell for themselves if they wish.

Jesus came to earth, to save mankind. That is my understanding. This salvation - approved by God - required that Jesus be sacrificed on a cross and suffer the most horrific torture and death. As part of this process, he was required to be betrayed, and Jesus even spoke about this in advance.

Judas was therefor just playing the part alloted to him from the beginning of time, as God knows all things.

I have never understood then why Judas should suffer in hell for eternity, when it would appear his role was predicted and predestined.

Sarah x

Judas role was predicted but not predestined. Judas had the choice of whether to betray Jesus or not and he also had the choice to repent or not. Judas chose to betray Jesus and then instead of asking for forgiveness, he chose instead to commit suicide. Remember, Peter also denied Jesus on Holy Thursday. but he repented of his sins and was forgiven and went on to become the first pope and a Saint… Judas also had the potential to be an active apostle and a saint, had he done the same thing. And by the way, the Church teaches that we can not know if any particular person, Judas included, is in hell. God will do the judging, not us…

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I think this is a pretty good answer. I would clarify further that although God knows who will turn away from him and ultimately be condemned, it is still up to that person to make that choice. By denying the sinful man his existence, God would also be denying that man his chance to be saved.

Further, it should be pointed out that every man’s life touches many others. Even the sinful man is part of God’s ultimate plan. Even though we might not be able to see how he fits in, rest assured he had a purpose.

Yes indeed then…

In all…the hell bound allow the paradise. Not true?

An infinate sacrifice for the ones born into circumstance. As you know…but only the grace of God to keep you from this torture chamber…

Why then if your above entry is so…is it not your responcibility to ensure ones not born into convieniance are atonned for in prayer rather than your human non-sensical absolute anti-charitable, indifferent pronoucement of damnation…? I would like to see a peace loving, logical, Christian, answer to this if you don’t mind…otherwise…be quiet, you havn’t a clue as to what your talking about…uh period

 

[FurtherSuntime]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

Salient:

Consider this: God is Infinite. That means He covers all of duration, no beginning and no end. Further, it means that He covers all magnitude. Since He creates, He can only know finite life forms, from the moment of their creation until their demise, in an instant (as far as we are concerned). As you state, He gives us free will, but, the free will we have is not perfect. How could it be? Only God’s Free Will is perfect.

As of the moment of conception He sees the entirety of a man’s life in an instant. Does it sadden Him that some men go the way of least preference? Of course it does. Each and every creation of God’s is an exceptionally special effort, beyond anything we can conceptualize. Each lost soul is an extraordinarily loving effort lost. A loving best friend lost forever. This sort of thing happens to all of us, but not nearly in as poignant a way.

However, He must continue creating. He is absolute fecundity. He has created for the entirety of the duration of real things. Really, I don’t know if He could stop creating. It is difficult for me to conceive of a cessation of creation. As Infinite, He has no limitation. He can create a multitude of beings beyond our imaginations. Consider just this universe!

So, He creates, but, like anyone with any sense at all, He wishes that what He creates be as fully free as is possible for limited creatures. Otherwise, all He would have surrounding Him is the inanimate. Consider this: would you or I wish that on ourselves?

God’s efforts are not frivolous, even though He controls all that we do (excluding our intentionalities), and it looks as though much of what we do is frivolous. He controls everything, good and bad. His purposes are purposes-unlimited. We consider and ponder and decide. He Knows and Wills without the limiting motion of consideration. But, He does not know what each of us will do until He creates us.

Primary Matter is, per Saint Thomas, likened to a repository. Each Form is a brand new created principle-of-differentiation. The merging of a Form with a hunk of Primary Matter such that it persists, is the “all” that God knows in His Eternal Instant - but, not before. (Despite some poor interpretations, due to our inability to exclude Time from our explanations.)

Yes. All the more reason to love Him relentlessly.

What do you think?

That is an excellent point.

There is “good” and their is “Evil.” God does not create evil. God does not encourage evil. God creates everything except each human beings intentionality. It is only our intentionality which makes a thing, or an action, evil. A bullet leaving a gun and traveling perfectly toward its target is not only not evil, but also, it is material perfection, as best as it can be. The intent of the shooter colors such an exceptional action “evil.”

Wouldn’t you?

Precisely.

Yes, because God has an infinity of purposes - but we don’t know what any particular purpose is. If God sees us going down the wrong path, He can remove possessions from us that He knows will force us see. He also knows the efficacy of His interventions instantly.

Saints have.

God bless,

jd

If it takes you this long to explain justice on behalf of mankind… if true, how could God… expect even a toddler to swallow the non-sense? ( well favored toddler I might add:thumbsup: