Why would God create those that He knew would end up in Hell

[Gorgias]

If it takes you this long to explain justice on behalf of mankind… if true, how could God… expect even a toddler to swallow the non-sense? ( well favored toddler I might add:thumbsup:

and you’ve seen anything described in philosophy or theology that doesn’t take precision and care to define?

 

[empther]

Quote:
Originally Posted by empther

forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
God could not know somebody was going to hell unless he created him.

Ouch! No.

What you’re saying is that that God gained knowledge when He created the universe – in other words, that God is mutable. That’s not in line with Catholic doctrine.

Quote:
How could God know somebody he hever creates would have gone to hell?

That’s not the right question to ask. God is outside time: therefore, He knows everything that happens in creation from all eternity. There is no “somebody he never creates”.

You seem to be making an assertion about God’s perfection. Medieval philosophers would talk about what God did or didn’t do, and what God could or could not have done, and got stuck in some weird corners with that logic…

It never ceases to amaze me how confused people can get. How do they get it so wrong?

**It’s tragic, really. :imsorry: I wonder how they get through life! **

**There is nothing in my remarks that says God is mutable or lives in time. **

---

**See post #4. Tonyrey understood what I wrote and said “:thumbsup:Very good point!” **

 

[tonyrey]

No. I could not. But neither would I stand by and shrug my shoulders and say ‘tough, you made your bed, now lie in it’. I would do everything in my power, in this life and beyond the grave (for example by leaving money in trust to be mamaged for their care so they would be safe and healthy). I would never stop loving my child. Ever. And that love would prevent me from ever condoning any idea that they would suffer for an eternity!

Jesus came to earth, to save mankind. That is my understanding. This salvation - approved by God - required that Jesus be sacrificed on a cross and suffer the most horrific torture and death. As part of this process, he was required to be betrayed, and Jesus even spoke about this in advance.

Judas was therefor just playing the part alloted to him from the beginning of time, as God knows all things.

I have never understood then why Judas should suffer in hell for eternity, when it would appear his role was predicted and predestined.

Sarah x

You’re jumping to conclusions, Sarah! It was only the** role **of traitor that was predicted and predestined. Judas committed suicide because he **regretted **what he had done and realised the enormity of his crime. Jesus said it would have been better if he had never been born because of the extreme mental torture Judas must have suffered knowing he had betrayed his Master and would be forever be despised as a traitor to the innocent Messiah who had trusted him implicitly. We are only damned if we feel no compunction for the evil we have done, are not willing to make amends to our victims and humbly ask forgiveness for the needless suffering we have caused…

 

[tonyrey]

Sarah, Like you, God never would stop loving his child. That’s not the problem. The problem is that the child stopped loving God and felt it was better to be on their own.
You see, those that go to hell, do so because they do not desire to be in God’s presence. Because God truly loves them, he allows them to turn from him and to chose Hell for themselves if they wish.

Judas role was predicted but not predestined. Judas had the choice of whether to betray Jesus or not and he also had the choice to repent or not. Judas chose to betray Jesus and then instead of asking for forgiveness, he chose instead to commit suicide. Remember, Peter also denied Jesus on Holy Thursday. but he repented of his sins and was forgiven and went on to become the first pope and a Saint… Judas also had the potential to be an active apostle and a saint, had he done the same thing. And by the way, the Church teaches that we can not know if any particular person, Judas included, is in hell. God will do the judging, not us…

Irrefutable!

 

[tonyrey]

God never does stop loving; He is, by nature, pure love. He did plenty to save His children. Not only did He take on our very fragile form and all the pains, maladies, fears, sorrows and anxieties that come with it, He also revealed to us the perfection of love and, implicitly, ourselves. Then, as you noted, He subjected himself to the most excruciating agony imaginable, all for no other reason than to win our love. Still, He is not a tyrant and he does not demand it. If we choose, willingly (barring invincible ignorance), to reject Him, He must, in His perfect love and justice, respect that decision.

Free will is more important than anything else because without it we would be incapable of love - or even thinking for ourselves…

 

[paul_c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c
I think this is a pretty good answer. I would clarify further that although God knows who will turn away from him and ultimately be condemned, it is still up to that person to make that choice. By denying the sinful man his existence, God would also be denying that man his chance to be saved.

Why all the anger? . I didn’t say that the hellbound allow the paradise. I said that everyone ever born had the opportunity to be saved. It is authentic Catholic Teaching that no one is predestined to Hell, they go to hell of their own free will. God knows who will chose to be saved and who will chose to be condemned because he is all knowing but he doesnt force someone to do evil. God allows free choice, some men chose evil. Don’t blame this on God.

So in essence, you could restate the original question: Why do some people chose to do evil? Surely you wouldn’t suggest it is because God made them to do evil. Saying this would be the same as denying God’s nature is Love. No, instead, it is because of what individual men value. Some value wealth over the happiness of heaven. Some value short term comfort or power, or sex. Some can only see what is right in front of them so there is no thought of heaven, only of their own desires.

 

[Equites_Christi]

My rather simple way of thinking of it:

God has always willed that humanity would have free will to reject Him, which would mean that He must allow the creation of those who would reject Him.

Otherwise, humanity is merely those who would choose Him.

Also, what God does He has always willed. God cannot change His mind about the creation of a person because of the knowledge of their choice.

 

[Perplexity]

Let’s assume that God knows every true proposition, and doesn’t learn any truths (he already knows them). Suppose further that there are true propositions describing the eternal destination of every person who could be created. Then, it follows that God knows all of them before creating any person.

The question then is, why didn’t God create only those persons he knew would freely choose heaven?

Some say it’s because the propositions describing persons as going to heaven could only be true, if propositions describing others as going to hell were true. That is, God couldn’t create only people who’d freely choose heaven. This is an easy target since all we need to do to rebut it is conceive of a possible world in which God creates only persons who freely choose heaven. Easy enough.

Another suggestion is that it’s because God could get more people to heaven, by letting a few go to hell. Then we have God treating some persons as mere means to ends. Super.

 

[empther]

More garbage from Perplexity. :hey_bud:
Observe how Perplexity buries a “giant leap in logic” claim ( I shaded in red ) in the middle of his preposterous remarks,
then, assuming the careless reader has already accepted his “giant leap in logic”, he continues the argument to the unacceptable conclusion I shaded in blue which makes God look bad::::

Let’s assume that God knows every true proposition, and doesn’t learn any truths (he already knows them). Suppose further that there are true propositions describing the eternal destination of every person who could be created. Then, it follows that God knows all of them before creating any person.

The question then is, why didn’t God create only those persons he knew would freely choose heaven?

Some say it’s because the propositions describing persons as going to heaven could only be true, if propositions describing others as going to hell were true. That is, God couldn’t create only people who’d freely choose heaven. This is an easy target since all we need to do to rebut it is conceive of a possible world in which God creates only persons who freely choose heaven. Easy enough.

Another suggestion is that it’s because God could get more people to heaven, by letting a few go to hell. Then we have God treating some persons as mere means to ends. Super.

So what does…
Suppose further that there are true propositions describing the eternal destination of every person who could be created
**…mean? **
**Nothing. Perplexity wants you to believe that propositions are predictive. They are not. They cannot predict something that will never happen because God makes it impossible to happen, in this case, by not creating the persons in question. **

Therefore, God cannot know the destination of people he never creates, as I indicated in an early post in this thread. It follows from this that he cannot avoid creating somebody knowing he will be damned. It follows because God doesn’t have two choices in the matter. There is only one: create people. ( or never create anybody! )

**And I think that should be enough to refute this ridiculous atheist’s argument. **

 

[Perplexity]

More garbage from Perplexity. :hey_bud:
Observe how Perplexity buries a “giant leap in logic” claim ( I shaded in red ) in the middle of his preposterous remarks,
then, assuming the careless reader has already accepted his “giant leap in logic”, he continues the argument to the unacceptable conclusion I shaded in blue which makes God look bad::::

So what does…
Suppose further that there are true propositions describing the eternal destination of every person who could be created
…mean?
**Nothing. Perplexity wants you to believe that propositions are predictive. They are not. They cannot predict something that will never happen because God makes it impossible to happen, in this case, by not creating the persons in question. **

Therefore, God cannot know the destination of people he never creates, as I indicated in an early post in this thread. It follows from this that he cannot avoid creating somebody knowing he will be damned. It follows because God doesn’t have two choices in the matter. There is only one: create people. ( or never create anybody! )

**And I think that should be enough to refute this ridiculous atheist’s argument. **

Don’t you just love how empther demonizes his opponents? lol

As usual, he’s just blowing hot air.

He didn’t give you any reason to agree with his crazy position that a being knows every true proposition, but still learns true propositions. He just described his position and used that description as an argument. So he hasn’t given me much to respond to

 

[paul_c]

More garbage from Perplexity. :hey_bud:
Observe how Perplexity buries a “giant leap in logic” claim ( I shaded in red ) in the middle of his preposterous remarks,
then, assuming the careless reader has already accepted his “giant leap in logic”, he continues the argument to the unacceptable conclusion I shaded in blue which makes God look bad::::

So what does…
Suppose further that there are true propositions describing the eternal destination of every person who could be created
…mean?
**Nothing. Perplexity wants you to believe that propositions are predictive. They are not. They cannot predict something that will never happen because God makes it impossible to happen, in this case, by not creating the persons in question. **

Therefore, God cannot know the destination of people he never creates, as I indicated in an early post in this thread. It follows from this that he cannot avoid creating somebody knowing he will be damned. It follows because God doesn’t have two choices in the matter. There is only one: create people. ( or never create anybody! )

**And I think that should be enough to refute this ridiculous atheist’s argument. **

I think you understate the power of God. God certainly can do anything he wants. He is NOT limited to the choice of “Creating People, or Not creating people.” If he wanted to create ONLY people who would do his will, he most certainly could have.

This is all about our perception of Love. The church teaches that Love is voluntarily doing something for the good of others without expecting anything in return. So free will is a necessary component of love. God loves perfectly because he gives everything we have and we of course have nothing that we can offer God, since he is the creator of everything. People can only love if they have free will and if God made people who could only do his will, then there could be no love because there was no free will. God chose to make people who have the potential to love, which means that they must have free will and if the will is really free, then the potential for evil must exist. Every person therefore has the potential to do love or to hate. Those that learn to love will be saved, those that turn from God through sin will be condemned unless they repent.

 

[paul_c]

Let’s assume that God knows every true proposition, and doesn’t learn any truths (he already knows them). Suppose further that there are true propositions describing the eternal destination of every person who could be created. Then, it follows that God knows all of them before creating any person.

The question then is, why didn’t God create only those persons he knew would freely choose heaven?

Some say it’s because the propositions describing persons as going to heaven could only be true, if propositions describing others as going to hell were true. That is, God couldn’t create only people who’d freely choose heaven. This is an easy target since all we need to do to rebut it is conceive of a possible world in which God creates only persons who freely choose heaven. Easy enough.

Another suggestion is that it’s because God could get more people to heaven, by letting a few go to hell. Then we have God treating some persons as mere means to ends. Super.

No, I don’t think God is treating some people as a means to an end. Th church teaches that every person has a real opportunity to be saved and that no one is predestined to be condemned…

The Church further teaches that love requires free will and that God desires men to love him. Because love is doing something voluntarily for others without expecting anythiing in return, love can not be forced.

To give manthe capacity to love, means that God must also make him free to choose his own path. If man is truly free, then some men will use this freedom for love and others will turn away from God and be condemned. This is what we now see…

 

[Salient]

Salient:

Consider this: God is Infinite. That means He covers all of duration, no beginning and no end. Further, it means that He covers all magnitude. Since He creates, He can only know finite life forms, from the moment of their creation until their demise, in an instant (as far as we are concerned). As you state, He gives us free will, but, the free will we have is not perfect. How could it be? Only God’s Free Will is perfect.

As of the moment of conception He sees the entirety of a man’s life in an instant. Does it sadden Him that some men go the way of least preference? Of course it does. Each and every creation of God’s is an exceptionally special effort, beyond anything we can conceptualize. Each lost soul is an extraordinarily loving effort lost. A loving best friend lost forever. This sort of thing happens to all of us, but not nearly in as poignant a way.

However, He must continue creating. He is absolute fecundity. He has created for the entirety of the duration of real things. Really, I don’t know if He could stop creating. It is difficult for me to conceive of a cessation of creation. As Infinite, He has no limitation. He can create a multitude of beings beyond our imaginations. Consider just this universe!

So, He creates, but, like anyone with any sense at all, He wishes that what He creates be as fully free as is possible for limited creatures. Otherwise, all He would have surrounding Him is the inanimate. Consider this: would you or I wish that on ourselves?

God’s efforts are not frivolous, even though He controls all that we do (excluding our intentionalities), and it looks as though much of what we do is frivolous. He controls everything, good and bad. His purposes are purposes-unlimited. We consider and ponder and decide. He Knows and Wills without the limiting motion of consideration. But, He does not know what each of us will do until He creates us.

Primary Matter is, per Saint Thomas, likened to a repository. Each Form is a brand new created principle-of-differentiation. The merging of a Form with a hunk of Primary Matter such that it persists, is the “all” that God knows in His Eternal Instant - but, not before. (Despite some poor interpretations, due to our inability to exclude Time from our explanations.)

Yes. All the more reason to love Him relentlessly.

What do you think?

That is an excellent point.

There is “good” and their is “Evil.” God does not create evil. God does not encourage evil. God creates everything except each human beings intentionality. It is only our intentionality which makes a thing, or an action, evil. A bullet leaving a gun and traveling perfectly toward its target is not only not evil, but also, it is material perfection, as best as it can be. The intent of the shooter colors such an exceptional action “evil.”

Wouldn’t you?

Precisely.

Yes, because God has an infinity of purposes - but we don’t know what any particular purpose is. If God sees us going down the wrong path, He can remove possessions from us that He knows will force us see. He also knows the efficacy of His interventions instantly.

Saints have.

God bless,
jd

Thanks. This helps a lot.

 

[Salient]

I think this is a tough question but I will do my best-
One answer as to why involves free will: Basically, if God were not to create anyone whom he foreknew would end up in hell, would there be any free will? What I mean is, if this was the case (God only creates those he knows will be saved), man CANNOT be damned, otherwise, he would not have been created. Nobody would really have the option to reject God because anyone who might have chosen to reject God has been denied existence, in other words, this rejection “option” has been knocked out because anyone who might choose it is not created, thus in reality the option is wiped out too.

Also, it makes our creation conditional and based on our foreseen choices.

Hopefully this is helpful
:twocents:

I think this is a pretty good answer. I would clarify further that although God knows who will turn away from him and ultimately be condemned, it is still up to that person to make that choice. By denying the sinful man his existence, God would also be denying that man his chance to be saved.

Further, it should be pointed out that every man’s life touches many others. Even the sinful man is part of God’s ultimate plan. Even though we might not be able to see how he fits in, rest assured he had a purpose.

Thanks guys. Both these posts are helpful to me.

 

[Richard320]

He didn’t.

Think of this: God is outside of time, every moment is now.

Now think of your life as a movie, an old fashioned movie with a reel of film, not a dvd. Frame by frame your life advances. You have seen the past, and you’re in the current frame, but you haven’t got to the end of the film. God, however, sees it now.

So…let’s say you stayed out too late last night, slept through all the morning Masses, and decide to skip the evening Mass because the Superbowl is on TV. That’s a Mortal Sin. The last frame in the movie of your life shows you in Hell.

But wait! Your conscience bothers you so you go to Confession next Saturday afternoon. You’re forgiven. Now the last frame of the movie of your life shows you in Heaven.

Two vastly different endings, same movie. And God saw both of them. Now. Which is the real ending? That depends on the scriptwriter: you. You can change the ending of the movie all the way up to the next-to-the-last frame.

Hard to wrap your brain around the “everything is now” concept, isn’t it? But that’s the best way I’ve been able to understand it. Just because you’re Hellbound doesn’t mean that you will still be tomorrow. That’s up to you exercising your free will.

If we were predestined, we’d be no more than chess pieces that God moved around for amusement. And there could be no sin, because, after all, we weren’t making the choices we made, it was all pre-determined by God. If there were no Sin, why did we get the 10 Commandments? It wouldn’t matter if we killed a man in cold blood just because we coveted his wife, our future was already determined, right?

I hope this makes sense to someone.

 

[JDaniel]

Let’s assume that God knows every true proposition, and doesn’t learn any truths (he already knows them). Suppose further that there are true propositions describing the eternal destination of every person who could be created. Then, it follows that God knows all of them before creating any person.

The question then is, why didn’t God create only those persons he knew would freely choose heaven?

Some say it’s because the propositions describing persons as going to heaven could only be true, if propositions describing others as going to hell were true. That is, God couldn’t create only people who’d freely choose heaven. This is an easy target since all we need to do to rebut it is conceive of a possible world in which God creates only persons who freely choose heaven. Easy enough.

Another suggestion is that it’s because God could get more people to heaven, by letting a few go to hell. Then we have God treating some persons as mere means to ends. Super.

Perplexed:

How seriously do think this should be treated?

God bless,
jd

 

[atheistgirl]

You’re jumping to conclusions, Sarah! It was only the** role **of traitor that was predicted and predestined. …

It was the role and the person:

Jesus Predicts His Betrayal

18“I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: ‘He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.’b

19“I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He. 20I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me.”

21After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, “I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me.”

22His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. 23One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him. 24Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, “Ask him which one he means.”

25Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, “Lord, who is it?”

26Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. 27As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.
“What you are about to do, do quickly,” Jesus told him, 28but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. 29Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor. 30As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.

How could Judas have done otherwise?

What would it mean for the salvation of mankind if Judas has decided he was NOT going to betray Jesus?

How could he have decided that when it seems Jesus has predestined it to happen? He says, I’m going to predict who is going to betray Me so you will know I am He?!?

That does seem awfully like predestination to me, and that Judas has no choice as his role was predetermined in the salvation play of mankind.

Sarah x

 

[Perplexity]

Perplexed:

How seriously do think this should be treated?

God bless,
jd

…

 

[JDaniel]

What you’re saying is that that God gained knowledge when He created the universe – in other words, that God is mutable. That’s not in line with Catholic doctrine.

Empther:

I’m just musing here, not committing to anything. But, there are three sort of temporal and temporal-like concepts in Church philosophy/theology: (1) time (as a correlate of motion), (2) duration (which is said of angels and other eternal-non-infinite things), and (3) sequence (which seems to be absent “time” altogether); all of which are “in-line with Catholic doctrine” at various places. Of course, nothing else except Triune God can be ascribed to be infinite, and precisely because of His Infiniteness, He cannot have “motion.” No motion, no time. Obviously, duration must include motion. But, is there any teaching which precludes sequence?

We can’t know whether or not He has ever created physical materiality prior (taking a little liberty here) to the creation of the universe. If He has not, then, for sure, He can’t be 16.7 billions years old. If He is, then we can truly ask, Who created God?

That’s not the right question to ask. God is outside time: therefore, He knows everything that happens in creation from all eternity.

But, “creation” is only 16.7 billion years old?

There is no “somebody he never creates”.

Perhaps we need to think this through. Certainly He’s been around for infinity longer than any of us have.

You seem to be making an assertion about God’s perfection. Medieval philosophers would talk about what God did or didn’t do, and what God could or could not have done, and got stuck in some weird corners with that logic.

Aren’t we there right now!

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

Why all the anger? . I didn’t say that the hellbound allow the paradise. I said that everyone ever born had the opportunity to be saved. It is authentic Catholic Teaching that no one is predestined to Hell, they go to hell of their own free will. God knows who will chose to be saved and who will chose to be condemned because he is all knowing but he doesnt force someone to do evil. God allows free choice, some men chose evil. Don’t blame this on God.

So in essence, you could restate the original question: Why do some people chose to do evil? Surely you wouldn’t suggest it is because God made them to do evil. Saying this would be the same as denying God’s nature is Love. No, instead, it is because of what individual men value. Some value wealth over the happiness of heaven. Some value short term comfort or power, or sex. Some can only see what is right in front of them so there is no thought of heaven, only of their own desires.

Paul:

What does this stuff mean?

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

God bless,
jd