Why would you NOT want to be Anglican?

[HannahLisa]

There’s always traditional Continuing Anglicans, or CANA…

What’s a Foursquare service like…? I thought it was a popular school game?

True. If I had my own transportation and knew of a parish like that near me I would probably start going there.

Foursquare is a charismatic/Pentecostal denomination. The services I’ve been to have been praise and worship for about half an hour, then a sermon, with some prayers and announcements in there as well. Pretty basic.

 

[RevDrNorth]

I do know the whole story. It’s one of my hobbies.

For example, why did Henry receive the *Defensor Fidei * (n.b.)title? No, I mean the whole story.

What was Henry’s stated causa, when he petitioned for a decree of nullity with respect to his marriage to Catherine? Under what general class of impediments would this have fallen? Was there a yet stronger argument, in the original dispensation? And was any of this at all unusal in the time period?

Knowing the whole story doesn’t usually require waving cardboard cutouts.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

True GKC. What I am about to say has nothing to do with trying to speak for or against the Catholic Faith. The reality (political and spiritual) in regards to Henry the VIII th (as GKC alludes to) is far more complex and intriguing. In addition, Henry personally is more complex than the poster GKC responded to knows. Henry was indeed capable of cruelty (so was his Catholic daughter aka Bloody Mary). He was known for his tremendous intellect (scholastic theology and humanism), astuteness, artistic talent and so on. While he indeed did get rather large, he had been known for cutting a rather suave figure as a young man due to his size and athletic prowess. A point of trivia (according to history channel) is that Henry was 6 ft 2. The armor most people see in Britain that is small is actually his boyhood armor according to the British historian and this lead to the erroneous assumption that he was short and fat.

Again, nothing to do with the original post but GKC is correct that cardboard stereotypes of Henry are relatively unhelpful in understanding the issue, which goes much deeper than the post GKC responded to (noting Henry was fat, sex craved so and so as if that summed up Anglicanism).

 

[GKC]

True GKC. What I am about to say has nothing to do with trying to speak for or against the Catholic Faith. The reality (political and spiritual) in regards to Henry the VIII th (as GKC alludes to) is far more complex and intriguing. In addition, Henry personally is more complex than the poster GKC responded to knows. Henry was indeed capable of cruelty (so was his Catholic daughter aka Bloody Mary). He was known for his tremendous intellect (scholastic theology and humanism), astuteness, artistic talent and so on. While he indeed did get rather large, he had been known for cutting a rather suave figure as a young man due to his size and athletic prowess. A point of trivia (according to history channel) is that Henry was 6 ft 2. The armor most people see in Britain that is small is actually his boyhood armor according to the British historian and this lead to the erroneous assumption that he was short and fat.

Again, nothing to do with the original post but GKC is correct that cardboard stereotypes of Henry are relatively unhelpful in understanding the issue, which goes much deeper than the post GKC responded to (noting Henry was a fat, sex craved so and so and that is Anglicanism).

He was graceful on the tennis court, and wrestled a mean game (though Francis I threw him). He was petulant and strong-willed, and inept in foreign affairs.

And he was cruel in a cruel age.

For the best single bio of him that I know, one that will give a great deal of insight into the man, as well as the age, esp. the system of impediments/dispensations and annulments, with respect to the sacrament of marriage, in the 16th century (until Trent reformed it all), J. J. Scarisbrick’s HENRY VIII is highly recommended. It is not pro-Henry. It is pro-history. Which is a good thing to be.

GKC

 

[Claudius]

As above, just wanted to know why not?

Peace and love :signofcross

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I believe in the Eucharist, which is Jesus, the Son of God, the Word of God, indeed God himself. Why would I ever go to a Church that did not have valid orders and did not actually have Jesus present there in the Eucharist? That makes no sense to me. If you are an Anglican, why would you not be a Catholic? that is the real question that needs to be asked here. You need to be a Catholic. You need to go to a Catholic Church and throw yourselves down on your knees in front of the blessed sacrament and pray for God to give you the Grace needed to see and know the truth and then join the ONE TRUE FAITH, the Holy Catholic Church.

 

[jmcrae]

There’s always traditional Continuing Anglicans, or CANA…

What’s a Foursquare service like…? I thought it was a popular school game?

I’m under the impression that FourSquare is an offshoot of the Methodist holiness movement, alongside the Pentecostal movement, Assemblies of God, and similar groups.

It has Anglican roots, so it’s probably a logical place for an ex-Anglican to end up.

 

[water]

As above, just wanted to know why not?

Give me some good reasons why I should.

 

[manualman]

No, like many others of the day, he needed a decree of nullity for dynastic reasons. It happened lliterally all the time. But not to the aunt of the Holy Roman Emperor.

GKC

Hillaire Belloc would say YOU oversimplify by implying the annullment was witheld purely because of family connections. History is indeed complex.

 

[Kevirish01]

GKC and Metaron,

As to the infallibility of Apostolicae Curae – from what I understand it is a part of the teaching of the Ordinary Magisterium.

Consider this from the Catechism:

899 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent” which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

Also, consider this from then Cardinal Ratzinger (Cardinal Ratzinger on Ad Tuendam Fidem, no. 11)

Other examples of moral doctrines which are taught as definitive by the universal and ordinary Magisterium of the Church are: the teaching on the illicitness of prostitution and of fornication.

***With regard to those truths connected to revelation by historical necessity and which are to be held definitively, but are not able to be declared as divinely revealed, ***thefollowing examples can be given: the legitimacy of the election of the Supreme Pontiff or of the celebration of an ecumenical council, the canonizations of saints (dogmatic facts), the declaration of Pope Leo XIII in the apostolic letter Apostolicae Curae on the invalidity of Anglican ordinations…

PS: How do you guys do those block thingys?

 

[jmcrae]

PS: How do you guys do those block thingys?

First, click the orange button at the bottom right of the message window that says “quote” on it.



Then, erase off the parts of the message that you don’t want to include in your reply. Type your reply after the end quote (/quote) mark.

If you are replying to several points in the same message, draw over them with the cursor to select them, and then click this one, http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/editor/quote.gif which is on the button bar at the top of the reply window. Quote marks (quote)(/quote) will appear around the selected text. Then type your replies after each of the end quote (/quote) marks.

If you do this, you will notice that you have extra quotes and unquotes - select and delete these, then preview your message (“Preview Post”) to make sure your quote boxes worked the way you wanted them to, and then when you’ve got them the way you want them, “Submit Reply.”

 

[1234]

The Anglican Church is having a huge crisis right now and is about to break apart into a number of factions over homosexuality, ordination of women and interpretation of scripture. Many of them are swimming the Tiber, as I once did!

Not many, some.

That was always a risk with the AC as it superficially resembles the RCC.

I think that the vast majority of AC’s accept the ordination of women, which I think has brought a lot to the AC and most other churches. It sure has to my denomination.

Most folks don’t realize how many RC’s become Episcopalian, even now. Most folks don’t realize how many RC’s leave their church, become cafeterians, or just stop going. The RCC has lost a lot of market share in the US, masked by the influx of immigrants.

The RCC is also in a huge crisis in Europe and the USA and Canada. And getting into one in Central and South America where the non-RC denominations are making great inroads.

 

[Kevirish01]

Thank you Mr. jmcrae.

 

[GKC]

GKC and Metaron,

As to the infallibility of Apostolicae Curae – from what I understand it is a part of the teaching of the Ordinary Magisterium.

Yes, that’s exactly what I said above. You’re correct.

Consider this from the Catechism:

899 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent” which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

Also, consider this from then Cardinal Ratzinger (Cardinal Ratzinger on Ad Tuendam Fidem, no. 11)

Other examples of moral doctrines which are taught as definitive by the universal and ordinary Magisterium of the Church are: the teaching on the illicitness of prostitution and of fornication.

***With regard to those truths connected to revelation by historical necessity and which are to be held definitively, but are not able to be declared as divinely revealed, ***thefollowing examples can be given: the legitimacy of the election of the Supreme Pontiff or of the celebration of an ecumenical council, the canonizations of saints (dogmatic facts), the declaration of Pope Leo XIII in the apostolic letter Apostolicae Curae on the invalidity of Anglican ordinations…

Yes, I’ve mentioned that many times.

When I say that the history of *Apostolicae Curae *is a hobby of mine, that’s the truth.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Hillaire Belloc would say YOU oversimplify by implying the annullment was witheld purely because of family connections. History is indeed complex.

Belloc is one of my favorite people. I’ve collected him for about 45 years or more. And his opinion on Henry’s case varies, from that in CHARACTERS OF THE REFORMATION, to the section in the multi-volume HISTORY OF ENGLAND.

I love his work, his personality and his syle. Even more than my own Chesterton, I’d want to spend a few days at King’s Land, drinking his wine, and listening to him sing his poetry (I own a record of him doing just that).

But his historical views require balance. History is indeed complex. And, as Belloc said, when he saw history “bent”, he didn’t try to straighten it. He bent it the other way.

Oh, and I don’t say the case was decided purely because of Charles. I say Charles made the difference. The causa Henry advanced, which was not the strongest case that could be made, and also had the disadvantage of saying that Julius had exceeded his authority (that such a dispensation was ultra vires, IOW), was quite up to the standards of such dynastic annulments, in that day. Consider the two annulments Henry’s sister got.

And any friend of Hilary is a friend of mine.

GKC

Collector of Bellc.

 

[GKC]

I’m under the impression that FourSquare is an offshoot of the Methodist holiness movement, alongside the Pentecostal movement, Assemblies of God, and similar groups.

It has Anglican roots, so it’s probably a logical place for an ex-Anglican to end up.

Google Aimee Semple McPherson.

 

[SIA]

because I am a Catholic

why on earth would I join a religion founded by arguably the most sadistic King ever to sit on the British throne?

no more sadistic than popes who forced young boys to have oral and anal sex with them and had many burned at the stake for not submitting to them.

 

[Metaron]

I believe in the Eucharist, which is Jesus, the Son of God, the Word of God, indeed God himself. Why would I ever go to a Church that did not have valid orders and did not actually have Jesus present there in the Eucharist? That makes no sense to me. If you are an Anglican, why would you not be a Catholic? that is the real question that needs to be asked here. You need to be a Catholic. You need to go to a Catholic Church and throw yourselves down on your knees in front of the blessed sacrament and pray for God to give you the Grace needed to see and know the truth and then join the ONE TRUE FAITH, the Holy Catholic Church.

As you well know, during the 1930’s and 40’s the Anglicans re-ordered their lines, thus re-validating there orders (except for the female “bishops” ) But traditional Anglican national Churches do not ordain women. And almost all Continuing Anglican Churches have valid Apostolic Succession.

 

[jmcrae]

no more sadistic than popes who forced young boys to have oral and anal sex with them and had many burned at the stake for not submitting to them.

Do you have any evidence for this accusation? In any case, nobody thinks that the Pope “founded” the Catholic Church - it was founded by Christ.

It has sinners in it, but it was not originally established upon the excusing of sin.

 

[DJgang]

This is my personal opinion, having been a member of the ECUSA for about five years and will be coming into the Church this Easter Vigil…

Because…

On the outside, it [meaning ECUSA from here on out] appears and wants to appear Catholic on the outside, but once in…no where near being Catholic.

I see alot of people who leave the Catholic Church, to go to ECUSA, just because they can’t get an annulment or don’t want to go through the process and do not like authority, especially with the Sacrament of Reconcilation.

It’s not the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

Because it allows openly gay people to be bishops and supports abortion.

Also, allows openly gays and lesbians to be Priests. or Rectors, or whatever.

There are reallly no beliefs outside of the Nicene Creed or Apostales Creed, therefore, opens the door to all these other issues, leaves too much up for personal interpretation, therefore causing muck in their church…and we can see what all is happening on the national level.

I stand behind my post, Rita. I’m sorry if I offended you, however, all of my reasons are fact. Even though I prefaced my post with my opinion…

In my previous church, numerous couples left the Catholic Church because they wanted to re-marry and did not want to go through annulment. During confirmation, my priest told us that many in our parish do not agree with the sacrament of reconcilation and that was as well as reason for leaving the Catholic Church.

I KNOW lesbian pastors. I KNOW THEM! Openly living with their lovers/partners.

Where is there any beliefs of the Anglician/Episcopal church outlined? I’m not aware of ANY outside the creeds and Book of Common Prayer. Please provide.

I can’t argue against you saying it was founded by a man (with charector floors)… but I really am getting quite hurt/upset/disgusted with the whole flaming of the Anglicans. I know this is a Catholic board and I did want to hear your opinions, but to be honest I expected them to be a bit more civil. I won’t flame you on your own faith, because I do respect it (despite the fact I sometimes find it incredibly difficult to comprehend how you can live with some of your religious laws). But whatever happened to religious tolerence.

Your religions may be perfect, but is your faith and comprehension perfect within it?

No one is perfect.

I was hurt, upset and disgusted by the ECUSA. They offended me for my beliefs. I could not be myself within it. They would rather push gay rights and abortion rights down my throat…so…

 

[Metaron]

no more sadistic than popes who forced young boys to have oral and anal sex with them and had many burned at the stake for not submitting to them.

OMG! You must have a terribly perverted mind to dream up that kind of evil, untrue fantasy…

You can’t back up your sickening claims by any stretch of the imagination (you made all that up!)

Name one supposed Pope who did this.

 

[HannahLisa]

I’m under the impression that FourSquare is an offshoot of the Methodist holiness movement, alongside the Pentecostal movement, Assemblies of God, and similar groups.

It has Anglican roots, so it’s probably a logical place for an ex-Anglican to end up.

Actually, the reason I’m at the Foursquare church has very little to do with my Anglican roots. Nor do I think the two are especially similar – the services are vastly different from my high church Anglican/Episcopalian upbringing. I suppose for some people there might be a kind of connection in that way.

I went to a Methodist church for two years before starting to go to the Foursquare church, though…