Why you don't love your children

[gardenswithkids]

God wants us to love him with all our hearts, even forsaking our families to follow Jesus.

Breeding and marriage is the consolation prize for those who drop out of the real pious race.

I can’t disagree with this, as much as it hurts me to say so, I don’t trust God in this matter, that’s why I’m celibate and I’ll never have kids - because I don’t want to risk their souls.

Your posts sadden me. I can’t quite figure out if your just stuck on some faulty predestination theology with your 50/50 chance idea, or if you simply dislike life and human existence. It seems rather than choosing virginity for the sake of following Jesus, you choose it because of a lack of trust in Jesus. You don’t want marriage and children because you don’t think God offers any better odds beyond 50/50.

Jesus performed His first public miracle at wedding, and the relationship between Christ and His Church is described in terms the Bridegroom and the bride. You don’t seem realize that those who choose celibacy give up something *good *(marriage) for something better. Marriage is a good thing. Therefore your choice of celibacy, (which St. Paul and the Cathoic Church do say is the superior choice) won’t be as fruitful because you choose it because of fear rather than because of love.

I will admit that at the time I got married, I really hadn’t considered a vocation to celibate life, but by the time I had three very needy young children constantly placing demands on me, a quiet convent began to sound pretty good. But I would hardly call my current life a “consolation prize for dropping out of the real pious race.” My family is my vocation; it is in my family that I try to live a life of piety. It is in caring for my children that I feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and care for the sick. I have seven children now–and I would be thrilled if God would choose from my family persons called to serve Him through consecrated celibacy. But He couldn’t do that if they didn’t exist.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Exactly!!

Bravo! I wondered when someone was going to recognize this along with me. They were an odd but strangely popular group. You know what they say about heresies? There really aren’t any new ones. They just reappear over and over again.

CDL

 

[Jennifer_J]

God created. We are made in the image and likeness of God. We are, by our physical natures, made to procreate. There must be something to the act of creation as set forth by the Creator. Also, Jesus loved children–as shown in the scriptures. Jesus was made man (but obviously an infant first). Humanity is a special work of God.

Can you provide me scripture, tradition or magesterial teaching that says marriage and procreation are disordered?

Jennifer

 

[Revelation13_16]

Rejecting procreation because “it’s bad” is the gnostic heresy (=rejection of matter as evil). [This was taken up by the Cathars, the Albigensians, the Paulicians and other post-gnostic sects.] It’s ultimately the denial of the goodness of Creation and of the ordering of Creation by God. Thus, it’s ultimately the rejection of God and His works.

No, I do not reject God and his works.

I reject man and his works.

In a perfect world (no sin) Life is so beautiful that it would make you cry. (but ofcourse, without sin you wouldn’t cry)

God’s work is truly magnificent, and children are truly beautiful.

Just watching them get excited over the small things in life that they look forward to shows God’s work and how beautiful it is.

But - man’s work = sin, corrupts everything.

God’s work is too beautiful for this world, we should forego it and wait until the new heaven and new earth.

Besides, the church only reject any contraceptive teaching because the lifeblood of the church is from families who provide all the cash inflow.

Not everyone is called to be celibate. People who want to live as a celibate by all means though they are not called to it will ultimately not only end up unhappy and angry with God, but may also break their celibacy vows and may ultimately even lose their faith, bringing themselves into great danger. And that’s what really endangers souls…

1. If they were never born, they’d never be angry with God
2. You’re saying that if we be selfless (celebate) we risk hell ourselves, so we’re forced (and church endorsed) to be selfish and pass on this burden of responsibility to our children … whom we claim to love.

“Sorry Timmy, I had to create you. This is life, there’s heaven and hell, you may go to either one. I’m happy now I’ve passed on this responsibility to you, I love you so much”

What?

If you love your kids you would never wish upon them any bad thing that has happened to you.

And responsibility and uncertainty about whether you’ll be ‘saved’ or not is certainly a bad thing.

See it this way: many people like to play baseball or soccer, but only a handful have the ability, the physical condition, the circumstances, the will etc. to become a top baseball or soccer player. Does this mean everyone should strive to become a midfielder of the FC Barcelona? No, because some people are just not made for it, they would make themselves unhappy, harm their health etc.

On the other hand, the same people may be passionate soccer players in their free time, who may bring someone else, who does have the abilities to become a top player, to the game and ultimately to a great career. That’s why good Catholic families are a hothouse for vocations…

I would like to think that if one forwent having kids for an altruistic motive, and endeavoured to serve God, that then God would treat this person as a special case, and they wouldn’t go to hell.

I would like to think God understands.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Cathars.

CDL

Zooey:

Exactly!!

Bravo! I wondered when someone was going to recognize this along with me. They were an odd but strangely popular group. You know what they say about heresies? There really aren’t any new ones. They just reappear over and over again.

Gee you two are silly.

I’m not a Cathar, I’m not a Gnostic.

Research before you speak: link

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

The biggest fallacy in your argument is that you claim that the unborn children actually “exist”. They do not.

I never said they exist, though it was implied I guess.

But no, I believe no existence is better than existence with the possibility of hell.

So… on the other hand… I love my children so much that I want to share this wonderful world that God created with them! God created this world purely for our enjoyment… purely out of love for us. He gave each of us free will (talk about parental love!) to enjoy life to its fullest!

And then this world became corrupt.

Look, one day there will be a New Heaven & New Earth.

You’ll probably be able to breed on the New Earth (but even if you don’t,. heaven will exceed your wildest dreams) why not wait until then?

So you’d rather deny a soul of its existance than give it the opportunity to experience love, peace, forgiveness, and joy?

How is that not selfish?

It doesn’t have the opportunity to experience hate, pain, wrath, & despair either.

2 sides to every coin my friend.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[gardenswithkids]

Let’s say your children are on the edge of a cliff, and there’s another cliff on the other side.

On the other side, is untold happiness, so beautiful that it makes you cry just looking at it.

But the drop is huge and has flames, and if you fall in, you’ll burn forever.

One of your kids says “mom, I’m going to try and jump and make it to the other side”.

What do you say?

I’d say something like:
“Don’t try jumping honey; that’s dangerous. Hold daddy’s hand and my hand tightly and we’ll show you how to walk–a CROSS–the bridge to the other side.”

(please note the double meaning of the word: cross.)

 

[Revelation13_16]

You know, Rev, I am sorry for your personal pain and your personal experiences which have apparently driven you into thinking that all parents are selfish, no existence is ‘safe’, and that it’s better never to be born than to ‘risk’ living. (You probably don’t want to hear this but you’ll be amazed at what a difference 10 years or so will make to your understanding. You may well still remain celebate; you may still find parents objectionable, but unless you totally close your mind you’ll have a lot more insight into not just your self, but others as well).

I’m almost 30, maybe by 40 I’ll think differently, but let’s be honest, if I do ‘cave in’ and have kids, it will be because I couldn’t go the celebate route.

It’ll be weakness, and I’ll probably despise myself.

In actual truth, if I felt the biological urge to be so strong that I feared I couldn’t continue this way, I’d have a vasectomy.

I refuse to have children.

But please don’t try to project your personal feelings onto the rest of us, or to present your personal interpretations as the fullness of truth. They aren’t. For all that you accuse us of responding with ‘emotion’, yours are the words that are most full of emotion, your conclusions are totally based on subjective emotion and opinion, and you are so convinced of your feeling that you ignore those who disagree with you, not on their own rational objections, but again based on your personal feelings.

Whilst my rebuttals might have emotion, they are always backed up by logic, and the initial post is pure logic.

To deny the first post, you have to deny hell, do that and you’re a heretic.

You have been shown where the faults in your original premise lie. I wish that you would address that rather than attempting to do the ‘yes, but. . .’ or the ‘you say this in your church and that’s what I’m saying so you’re wrong’ lines that stop any discussion flat in its tracks because it doesn’t attempt to address differences, only to repeat opinions ad infinitum.

Sometimes you have to listen and think things through, and consider other evidence, instead of rushing to defend your own pet theories and ideas. That is what learning is all about; otherwise, why ever attempt to read or to explore anything? If you’ve made up your mind on a subject and only look at other information on that subject in order to compare it with your ‘mindset’ so that you can reject what doesn’t agree with you–you’re not learning at all.

God bless.

I have to listen and think things through?

I do think for myself, why do you think almost nobody else feels this way about procreation in Christian circles?

Because the Catholics get their ‘justification’ from the Church, and the Protestants get theirs from a command in Genesis. (which isn’t apt)

Finally, I use logic, convince me that having kids is ok when there’s a possibility they may end up in hell.

I wouldn’t gamble with a 0.001% chance that my child could go to hell - that’s selflessness - foregoing my own fatherly pleasure in order to ensure my child will never feel pain.

Refute that.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[gardenswithkids]

You’ll probably be able to breed on the New Earth

You continually use the word “breed”. I see you’re from Australia so perhaps you are unaware that in America the word refers to reproduction of livestock and animals. When used in reference to human reproduction, it has extremely derogative connotations.

 

[Revelation13_16]

Read my words - the only thing I mentioned is Mary and Joseph forming a family - isn’t that what your argument is about?

It’s about procreation.

This just shows your lack of understanding. What if there were no more families in this utopian world you’ve created? How can the Church grow? Who will be left to pass on the faith?

Books, to those who seek it.

We don’t know the time or hour when the world will end - why force God’s will on that?

Don’t mess with God’s will - many have tried and have perished.

God’s will can’t be messed with.

The fact is, even if every Christian listened to me and stopped breeding, and in 100 years the last Christian died, that wouldn’t necessarily mean that God would end the show there.

God might keep humanity going another 200 years for that one person who reads a Bible in the library and decides to reinvent Christianity.

But this is unlikely IMO.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Okay, two things. One a point, one a story.
If everyone was a celibate missionary, who the heck would they evangelize? Eventually there would be nobody left. Okay, there would be pagans, Muslims, etc., but if the whole world eventually converted, which IS the goal, then sure enough, we would celibate ourselves right out of existence.

It’s not the goal.

You see, the great commandment is to spread the gospel to all nations and peoples and yes we must do that, but there’s no guarantee that everyone will accept.

I really hope the Catholic Church doesn’t believe that one day every living person will be a Catholic, because if they do they are wrong.

Jesus said the way to salvation is narrow, the wide path leads to hell.

How many Christians are on the earth at the moment?

2-3 Billion at most?

There’s 8 Billion on earth at time of writing, where are the other 5 Billion going?

The Wide Path (5 Billion) vs The Narrow Path (2-3 Billion)

Jesus was right. (but ofcourse!)

Now my point for this story is this. We can never know how many lives were touched by this man who, by all appearances, had everything, but, when his time came, he discovered that it didn’t count for anything, nor did it give him comfort. (BTW- this instructor was orphaned as a child in Korea and made his life alone) How many of the others in that hospital room, no one else of whom was Catholic, were moved by this conversion?
What about my cousin. What if he had never been born? Who would have brought the Truth to him? What if the instructor had never lived?

1. Great story.
2. This brings up Free Will and determinism again.

If you believe the karate instructor was determined to be saved, then it wouldn’t have mattered if your cousin wasn’t born, because somebody else would have been that ‘evangelizing angel’.

If you believe in Free Will, maybe he wouldn’t be saved or maybe he would have, but in a different way.

See now we enter into Chaos Theory - what if we never existed? Would somebody else have sat on that seat in the bus instead of us? What if somebody bought that last loaf of bread at the store instead of me? How does this change their life?

This gets very, very deep, it’s how one small event (like missing the bus) can change many people’s lives, even if it is a small event and not a big one like a birth.

Suffice to say, once you get into Free Will & Chaos Theory, it’s 100% speculation from there, only God in his omniscience can know all the possibilities.

Lastly, have you not noticed that it us usually the wealthy who do not depend on or trust God? They are more likely to find themselves in hell, and Jesus did say that it is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to get to Heaven. So, if avoiding hell is the goal, then it is the wealthy, not the poor, who should not "breed". (which is a vulgar way of putting it)

True - to whom more is given, more is expected.

But by the same token, there are many poor people who turn to crime and kill people.

Just look at Africa, I’ve heard stories there about Guerillas who force fathers to rape their own daughters.

That’s awful exiled, if that child never was born, both the father and daughter wouldn’t have to go through that.

But what worries me is the souls of the Guerillas and the father and daughter.

Surely not all of them will repent, and the ones that don’t, hell awaits.

This world is awful sometimes, but even so, if hell didn’t exist, I’d say it’s ok to have kids because any pain here would be temporary and heaven would await all.

But throw in hell for most people, and I just can’t see how anyone breeds in good conscience.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

The two situations are inseparable: "When marriage is not esteemed, neither can consecrated virginity or celibacy exist; when human sexuality is not regarded as a great value given by the Creator, the renunciation of it for the sake of the kingdom of heaven loses its meaning."

I don’t agree with this.

If marriage isn’t esteemed, that means the “norm” is then promiscuity - people treating sexuality like a toy instead of regarding it as a great value given by God.

Therefore if the virgin/celebate shuns the many tempting opportunities to have “fun”, how can we not say that these virgins & celebates are not holy?

But don’t you see, neither Mother Teresa or St. Paul would have existed if not for their parents.

 

[Revelation13_16]

Unless you are Mormon and believe that God has a lot of spiritual babies in heaven waiting for human bodies, it makes no sense to consider the rest of your argument.

This has been covered above. (no existence = no pain)

Again, this is flawed because life begins at conception. Until that moment, there is no soul at risk.

No existence is total safety from hell.

How can something that doesn’t exist burn in hell?

We do not gamble; we obey God who said, “Be fruitful and multiply.”

" Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.”

The earth is full my friend, there’s no need to breed.

It is not necessarily selfish (though it can be); it is an act of obedience to God as stated above.

Convenient usage of Scripture to justify anything.

How can I love non-existent children more by not conceiving them than the ones that I have conceived and loved?

Because if you truly loved them, you wouldn’t have them.

Yes, your love of the concieved ones is a tangible love, you see what they look like and so forth, but your love of the ones who don’t exist lives in your conscience that you did the right thing.

Think about it.

God allows husband and wife to participate in his own creative ability through procreation. The couple creates life where none existed before. In the Nicene Creed, we recite each week the following: “We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.” It is the Spirit who gives life. Thus, when a couple chooses to use Artificial Birth Control to contracept, they are, in effect, saying to the Holy Spirit, “We do not want life to be given through this act. You are not welcome here.”

Yes, God is the giver of life, but as we have ‘knowledge of good and evil’ we can choose not to use that life.

The only sin with contraception is that it’s selfish.

People want the fun of sex, without the life giving aspect.

But saying “No” to the Holy Spirit out of an altruistic motive isn’t a sin.

Otherwise Mother Teresa would’ve offended the Holy Spirit by not using her womb.

You only think you have a clever argument.

It’s a logical argument, I take no pleasure in it.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Your posts sadden me. I can’t quite figure out if your just stuck on some faulty predestination theology with your 50/50 chance idea, or if you simply dislike life and human existence.

I dislike Hell and human suffering.

So naturally, anything that causes people to go to Hell and creates human suffering I dislike.

I don’t blame God though, I can’t blame God.

It seems rather than choosing virginity for the sake of following Jesus, you choose it because of a lack of trust in Jesus. You don’t want marriage and children because you don’t think God offers any better odds beyond 50/50.

I could get married, I could even adopt children (since they are already “here”) but I chose not to do this because I do not want to go to Hell, I want to do God’s will, and a family is only a selfish distraction.

Jesus performed His first public miracle at wedding, and the relationship between Christ and His Church is described in terms the Bridegroom and the bride. You don’t seem realize that those who choose celibacy give up something *good *(marriage) for something better. Marriage is a good thing. Therefore your choice of celibacy, (which St. Paul and the Cathoic Church do say is the superior choice) won’t be as fruitful because **you choose it because of fear rather than because of love. **

Good point gardenswithkids.

But Paul does say we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

I believe people can begin to serve God with impure motives, but God changes that person.

Put it this way, let’s say you love your husband.

But Your husband might have only asked you out in order to sleep with you. Therefore, his motives might have been impure, totally seeking what he could gain from you.

But over time, you made him love you because of who you are, and whilst at one point in your relationship he was only in it for selfish gain, now he’s in it forever for selfless love.

I believe this is how God works in us, we might join him to avoid hell initially (avoid a bad end result) but as we know him, we love him and we then can’t imagine life without him. (not even thinking of the end result)

I will admit that at the time I got married, I really hadn’t considered a vocation to celibate life, but by the time I had three very needy young children constantly placing demands on me, a quiet convent began to sound pretty good. But I would hardly call my current life a “consolation prize for dropping out of the real pious race.” My family is my vocation; it is in my family that I try to live a life of piety. It is in caring for my children that I feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and care for the sick. I have seven children now–and I would be thrilled if God would choose from my family persons called to serve Him through consecrated celibacy. But He couldn’t do that if they didn’t exist.

He could, he could’ve taken 7 pagan children and made them converts and celebates.

We should be cautious when we take the credit for something God does with our children, as if we somehow have contributed.

We haven’t, in God’s plan he can use and choose whomever, he depends on no-one.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

God created. We are made in the image and likeness of God. We are, by our physical natures, made to procreate. There must be something to the act of creation as set forth by the Creator.

God created us to procreate and live in a perfect world.

And he will re-institute this New World in time (Revelation chs. 21, 22)

But this world is corrupted by sin, and this is the reason why our mouths which were made to glorify God can now spit venom instead.

Perfect Creation has been Perfectly Corrupted.

Also, Jesus loved children–as shown in the scriptures. Jesus was made man (but obviously an infant first). Humanity is a special work of God.

I love kids (when they are quiet ), I love them so much I don’t want to take the risk that they’ll grow up to reject God in some way and go to hell.

That’s heartbreaking.

Can you provide me scripture, tradition or magesterial teaching that says marriage and procreation are disordered?

There’s the usual “there is no-one righteous, no not one” and Paul’s message to the Corinthians (ch 7) about how a person should marry God and think of heavenly things rather than marry a human and think of earthly things for starters.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

You continually use the word “breed”. I see you’re from Australia so perhaps you are unaware that in America the word refers to reproduction of livestock and animals. When used in reference to human reproduction, it has extremely derogative connotations.

I don’t want to disagree with you because perhaps in your area it does have a negative connotation.

As a student of Linguistics, I know that words sometimes have different meanings in different parts of the world and even from town to town at times.

But according to dictionary.com it only carries the negative connotation when homosexuals call heterosexuals “breeders”.

That is negative, and I haven’t called anyone who has kids a ‘breeder’.

So breed is an apt word and neutral, if anything procreate has a positive connotation, (pro - create) and I want to avoid connotation as much as possible.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Jennifer_J]

God created us to procreate and live in a perfect world.

And he will re-institute this New World in time (Revelation chs. 21, 22)

But this world is corrupted by sin, and this is the reason why our mouths which were made to glorify God can now spit venom instead.

Perfect Creation has been Perfectly Corrupted.

I love kids (when they are quiet ), I love them so much I don’t want to take the risk that they’ll grow up to reject God in some way and go to hell.

That’s heartbreaking.

There’s the usual “there is no-one righteous, no not one” and Paul’s message to the Corinthians (ch 7) about how a person should marry God and think of heavenly things rather than marry a human and think of earthly things for starters.

God Bless,
Rev

God knows all, for all time. We have free will and still he knows what we will choose. He KNEW Adam and Eve would fall, yet he STILL created them. He then CREATED Jesus to open Heaven for us. While we are sinful by our nature, we CAN rise above it because we are more than animals. There’s also the natural law written on our hearts. I don’t think we have been perfectly corrupted, unless God corrupted us?

I think your scripture quotes are terribly out of context–there are plenty of people who are righteous (babies, young children, mentally-challenged people, etc). Nor does Paul’s message say that marriage is disorded, just that service to the Faith is on a higher plain, if you will. I can still serve the Lord and the Church by raising my 5 children to love and serve the Lord as well. Can they turn away from the Church, sure, so did Judas and he had Jesus right there with him. But there is always hope for repentence. Your view is not supported by any Christian Church that I know of, and certainly not the Catholic Church!

God bless,
Jennifer

 

[marci]

I could get married, I could even adopt children (since they are already “here”) but I chose not to do this because I do not want to go to Hell, I want to do God’s will, and a family is only a selfish distraction.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I don’t agree with this.

If marriage isn’t esteemed, that means the “norm” is then promiscuity - people treating sexuality like a toy instead of regarding it as a great value given by God.

Therefore if the virgin/celebate shuns the many tempting opportunities to have “fun”, how can we not say that these virgins & celebates are not holy?

Oh good, then we found a point of agreement. But if marriage isn’t esteemed that doesn’t neccesarily mean the norm is promiscuity-it could be the “norm” is abstinence, (unlikely, but possible.) That is what you seem to be proposing, that all serious Christians should choose abstinence or sterilize themselves. (Hmm, St. Paul didn’t have nice things to say about those who wanted other Christians to take knives to their private parts. )

As a Catholic I believe that God designed human sexuality for reproduction, and therefore entering marriage (which is consumated through sexual activity) with no intention of reproducing misuses this great gift from God.

But if Adam & Eve never bred, they would’ve died and God could’ve created humanity again, this time without a possibility of sin.

I believe it was St. Paul who referred to Jesus as “the new Adam.” Yes, God could have just wiped out the first Adam and Eve and started over again, but He didn’t. Jesus came to us through the line of the original Adam and Eve. .

Breeding only keeps the ‘status quo’, it doesn’t create more Christians.

If Christians only had 2.2 children (or whatever the replacement number is), that might be true in terms of earthly population. But, when we make babies, we make eternal souls, and that number increases with every child.

You can be sure if you die in a state of grace. but you can’t be sure you will die in a state of Grace.

Very true. But the best predictor of future behavior is past performance.

 

[gardenswithkids]

But Paul does say we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Sounds like parenting to me.

I believe people can begin to serve God with impure motives, but God changes that person.

Put it this way, let’s say you love your husband.

But Your husband might have only asked you out in order to sleep with you. Therefore, his motives might have been impure, totally seeking what he could gain from you.

But over time, you made him love you because of who you are, and whilst at one point in your relationship he was only in it for selfish gain, now he’s in it forever for selfless love.

I believe this is how God works in us, we might join him to avoid hell initially (avoid a bad end result) but as we know him, we love him and we then can’t imagine life without him. (not even thinking of the end result)

Now, add to that scenario the children that result from the marriage and you have shown how God uses marriage to save the parents from their own selfish tendencies as they sacrifice together for the sake of their children, and how He uses holy parents to create holy children. What may have started for selfish reasons, God can redeem. That’s why for most Christians, a godly marriage is the path to their sanctity.

He could, he could’ve taken 7 pagan children and made them converts and celebates.

We should be cautious when we take the credit for something God does with our children, as if we somehow have contributed.

We haven’t, in God’s plan he can use and choose whomever, he depends on no-one.

Well of couse my husband and I didn’t make those babies without God. Having known couples who struggle with infertility, I fully realize that He is the Lord and Giver of Life and I’m only cooperating with His plan. He can convert pagan children and raise up children of Abraham from the dust, but He choose to make a few babies through my marriage too. I’m not taking credit, but just acknowledging facts. To Him be the glory for using someone like me.