Why you don't love your children

[Jennifer_J]

Psalm 127
1
1 A song of ascents. Of Solomon. Unless the LORD build the house, they labor in vain who build. Unless the LORD guard the city, in vain does the guard keep watch.
2
It is vain for you to rise early and put off your rest at night, To eat bread earned by hard toil-- all this God gives to his beloved in sleep.
3
Children too are a gift from the LORD, the fruit of the womb, a reward.
4
Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children born in one’s youth.
5
2 Blessed are they whose quivers are full. They will never be shamed contending with foes at the gate.

 

[homewardbound]

From what I’m understnading of the OP, he/she actually thinks its a sin for humans to procreate?

I just want to say Rev, that maybe you’re confusing what God wants you to do with your life(which may be to be celibate and single/join Holy Orders) with the entire human race. You really should pray about that and stop thinking everyone is exactly like you and that God wants the same for everyone, because anyone with a personal relationship with Him knows they are unique. If God wanted an army of zombies, he would have made us zombies. Instead, he calls us all to different vocations and callings. Each is just as important in His eyes as the rest, be it Holy Orders, single life, or marriage. To say bringing children into the world is a sin and wrong is throwing God’s work in His face and telling Him that His decisions are wrong and only your insane ramblings are truth. Please, try actually getting to know God before presuming to know his desires for mankind.

I will not responf further because, due to the stupidity of every post I’ve seen you make, I don’t believe for a second you are serious. You’re merely here out of boredom and decided to come here to annoy. I will pray God busies you with more productive things to do with you time.

 

[Thekla]

• If we are born, we have a 50% chance of going to hell
  God Bless,
  Rev

This is mathematically incorrect. It assumes that 1/2 of all children born will eventually end up in hell and we have no way of knowing that. Only God knows the statistics. Now, there are only two choices with Heaven and hell, but those choices are impacted by our choices. And God’s choices. There’s nothing impacting coin-flipping.

 

[Revelation13_16]

God knows all, for all time. We have free will and still he knows what we will choose. He KNEW Adam and Eve would fall, yet he STILL created them. He then CREATED Jesus to open Heaven for us.

Stop right there.

1. I’m not going to discuss The Fall and God’s omniscience, because it opens a Pandora’s Box involving Supralapsarianism and Determinism.
2. Jesus was begotten, not made.

Careful.

While we are sinful by our nature, we CAN rise above it because we are more than animals. There’s also the natural law written on our hearts. I don’t think we have been perfectly corrupted, unless God corrupted us?

See 1) above.

I think your scripture quotes are terribly out of context–there are plenty of people who are righteous (babies, young children, mentally-challenged people, etc).

Romans 3:10 - “There is none righteous, no not one”

But all the examples you mention, it is commonly believed that those people are covered by a special type of grace that prevents them from going to Hell.

I personally believe this.

Nor does Paul’s message say that marriage is disorded, just that service to the Faith is on a higher plain, if you will. I can still serve the Lord and the Church by raising my 5 children to love and serve the Lord as well.

But if you didn’t have 5 kids, you could spend your nights/weekends with the 50 homeless and teach them how to serve the Lord.

Can they turn away from the Church, sure, so did Judas and he had Jesus right there with him.

What did Jesus say about Judas?

“It would have been better for him that he was never born”

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Revelation13_16;1929360:

Second, From what you have said here, you feel that, a) marriage somehow increases ones likelyhood of hell,

Nope, never said that.

and b) marriage and having children are inherantly selfish.

Yes.

If this is the case, why does the church elevate marriage to the status of a Sacrament?

Because the church can’t survive without the income and support that comes from families and celibacy seems virtually impossible for most.

With the Sacrament of Matrimony comes grace. When a married couple live their vocation to give honor and glory to God they are given Grace through this sacrament.

I don’t believe marriage is a sacrament, this is point of contention between us.

Obviously, Holy Orders are another sacrament. There is Grace given with this as well.

I don’t see why every believer can’t choose for themselves these ‘Holy Orders’.

If there’s no predestination and we can choose to co-operate with God or not, why can’t we freely choose for ourselves the Priesthood?

Why does God have to choose it for us and put it on our hearts?

Makes no sense.

There are no sacraments given for someone who just stays single all of their life. Not to say that they are less likely to go to heaven, provided they are living a chaste life free form mortal sin, etc. So, it follows then that one increases one’s grace by receiving these sacraments.

In measuring Grace, a single person who goes to 6:15pm mass every night, and a married couple who can’t due to work/lifestyle, which gets the more grace?

One is not better than the other.

Paul says celibacy is better.

God calls one to the priesthood. One does not choose the priesthood because they fear hell. Men take many years disearning whether they are being or not they are being called.

I think the distraction of marriage stops alot of people from even considering this lifestyle.

There are different paths to sainthood, marriage can definately be one of them.

Sure, but if a married person can be a saint, think about how much more effective they would have been celibate?

The ends does not justify the means. What I think you are speaking about here is no different than anyone living out their life in disobedience to God’s law. One only need to repent, and the Lord will look again apon him with favor.

You missed the important word “begin” and then the whole husband/wife analogy - conveniently.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Oh good, then we found a point of agreement. But if marriage isn’t esteemed that doesn’t neccesarily mean the norm is promiscuity-it could be the “norm” is abstinence, (unlikely, but possible.) That is what you seem to be proposing, that all serious Christians should choose abstinence or sterilize themselves. (Hmm, St. Paul didn’t have nice things to say about those who wanted other Christians to take knives to their private parts. )

Fornication would most certainly be the norm, history and our own socieites today show this.

I think most people don’t even consider celibacy, they think of ‘earthly things’ and God is secondary.

If they truly believed in God, why wouldn’t God be primary?

As a Catholic I believe that God designed human sexuality for reproduction, and therefore entering marriage (which is consumated through sexual activity) with no intention of reproducing misuses this great gift from God.

But that means you can only have sex once every 10-11 months.

Think about it:

If you don’t plan for the best time for ovulation, you’re choosing ignorance because deep down you want to be able to “try” a few times to “make sure” because sex is pleasurable.

If you do plan for the best time for ovulation, then technically if the male is virile, once will be enough to conceive, and any more than that is knowingly an “overkill” and only for pleasure.

If you know your wife is pregnant, you can’t have sex with her because conception has already occurred, therefore any sex you have with her while she’s pregnant isn’t for reproduction and only for pleasure, which is sinful.

I believe it was St. Paul who referred to Jesus as “the new Adam.” Yes, God could have just wiped out the first Adam and Eve and started over again, but He didn’t. Jesus came to us through the line of the original Adam and Eve.

True, but God went to the trouble of nearly killing all of us first (The Flood) and then went to the trouble of giving the Law, apparently for the purpose of getting us to heaven.

. If Christians only had 2.2 children (or whatever the replacement number is), that might be true in terms of earthly population. But, when we make babies, we make eternal souls, and that number increases with every child.

But Jesus said that salvation is the “Narrow Path” while most people are on the “Wide Path” to destruction.

There are currently 8 Billion people on earth, Christians make up at most 3 Billion, the other 5 Billion then are on that “wide path”.

It doesn’t matter how much you “procreate”, you’ll never tip the scales to make the two paths identical, that’s contra to Jesus’ words - and Jesus is Lord.

Very true. But the best predictor of future behavior is past performance.

True, but people change and the future is unwritten. (assuming Free Will)

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Jennifer_J]

Stop right there.

1. I’m not going to discuss The Fall and God’s omniscience, because it opens a Pandora’s Box involving Supralapsarianism and Determinism.
   Well, aren’t you special calling what I can discuss and can’t. Give me a BIG break…
2. Jesus was begotten, not made.
   Begotten–means PROCREATED/GENERATED (Made has a connotation of being prepared or artificially produced) The Latin may be more precise, I’m not sure. So Jesus–his HUMAN form was created in Mary by God (the Holy Spirit).
   Careful.
   

See 1) above.

Romans 3:10 - “There is none righteous, no not one”

But all the examples you mention, it is commonly believed that those people are covered by a special type of grace that prevents them from going to Hell.

I personally believe this.

But if you didn’t have 5 kids, you could spend your nights/weekends with the 50 homeless and teach them how to serve the Lord. But each of my 5 children can grow up to serve the poor, or marry, or serve the Church or solve hunger, etc…potentially helping many more.

What did Jesus say about Judas?

“It would have been better for him that he was never born”

And yet he was and served Jesus’ purpose.

Jennifer
God Bless,
Rev

 

[Jennifer_J]

Stop right there.

1. I’m not going to discuss The Fall and God’s omniscience, because it opens a Pandora’s Box involving Supralapsarianism and Determinism.
   Well, aren’t you special calling what I can discuss and can’t. Give me a BIG break…
2. Jesus was begotten, not made.
   Begotten–means PROCREATED/GENERATED (Made has a connotation of being prepared or artificially produced) The Latin may be more precise, I’m not sure. So Jesus–his HUMAN form was created in Mary by God (the Holy Spirit).
   Careful.
   

See 1) above.

Romans 3:10 - “There is none righteous, no not one”

But all the examples you mention, it is commonly believed that those people are covered by a special type of grace that prevents them from going to Hell.

I personally believe this.

But if you didn’t have 5 kids, you could spend your nights/weekends with the 50 homeless and teach them how to serve the Lord. But each of my 5 children can grow up to serve the poor, or marry, or serve the Church or solve hunger, etc…potentially helping many more.

What did Jesus say about Judas?

“It would have been better for him that he was never born”

And yet he was and served Jesus’ purpose.

Jennifer
God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Now, add to that scenario the children that result from the marriage and you have shown how God uses marriage to save the parents from their own selfish tendencies as they sacrifice together for the sake of their children, and how He uses holy parents to create holy children. What may have started for selfish reasons, God can redeem. That’s why for most Christians, a godly marriage is the path to their sanctity.

My aunty married a non-Christian, Paul advised against this, but said nevertheless that “how do you know you won’t save your husband?”.

The opposite happened (sort of), she’s not the Christian she used to be now.

It’s still there under the surface, but the fire is gone, he wore her down.

I agree that marriage can make people more selfless, but I also think that evangelism makes one more selfless also.

Marriage is inherantly selfish because it’s so pleasurable, that’s why almost everyone does it.

Well of couse my husband and I didn’t make those babies without God. Having known couples who struggle with infertility, I fully realize that He is the Lord and Giver of Life and I’m only cooperating with His plan. He can convert pagan children and raise up children of Abraham from the dust, but He choose to make a few babies through my marriage too. I’m not taking credit, but just acknowledging facts. To Him be the glory for using someone like me.

I think this depends on your point of view.

God is the giver of life, yes, but does he still give it?

Isn’t it us that decides now when to create a child? (bar bad genes stopping us)

I have trouble believing God is directly behind the birth of every child, it’s a bit too close to predestination for me.

I do believe however he is indirectly behind the birth of every child, because it’s by the power he bestowed upon us that we can create.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Jennifer123]

marci;1929573:

I don’t believe marriage is a sacrament, this is point of contention between us.

Do you believe in sacraments at all? A sacrament is an expression of Christ present in our midst. We believe that marriage between a baptised man and woman is sacramental because it mirrors the relationship between God and His people, that is faithfully committed to each other in a covenant relationship.
Marriage, when experienced between the husband and wife faithfully and prayerfully, is a great means of grace due to the fact that they can spend the rest of their lives serving, loving, placing the needs of their spouse above their own.

 

[Revelation13_16]

This is mathematically incorrect. It assumes that 1/2 of all children born will eventually end up in hell and we have no way of knowing that. Only God knows the statistics. Now, there are only two choices with Heaven and hell, but those choices are impacted by our choices. And God’s choices. There’s nothing impacting coin-flipping.

The coin was just an example, my OP regarding 50/50 was worded poorly, I apologize

A coin has two sides, like heaven and hell.

50/50 only refers to those two choices, not the population percentile of people going to hell.

In fact Jesus said salvation is the “Narrow Path”, see above for more on this.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[marci]

Because the church can’t survive without the income and support that comes from families and celibacy seems virtually impossible for most.

 

[Revelation13_16]

Originally Posted by Revelation13_16
Stop right there.

1. I’m not going to discuss The Fall and God’s omniscience, because it opens a Pandora’s Box involving Supralapsarianism and Determinism

jen
Well, aren’t you special calling what I can discuss and can’t. Give me a BIG break…

Read, I said I’m not going to discuss it.

rev
2) Jesus was begotten, not made.

jen
Begotten–means PROCREATED/GENERATED (Made has a connotation of being prepared or artificially produced) The Latin may be more precise, I’m not sure. So Jesus–his HUMAN form was created in Mary by God (the Holy Spirit).

If you argue with begotten, you argue with the Nicene Creed.

If you argue with the Nicene Creed, you are a heretic.

Nicene Creed

“And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;”

rev
What did Jesus say about Judas?

“It would have been better for him that he was never born”

jen
And yet he was and served Jesus’ purpose.

And he burns in hell for it.

Forever.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Originally Posted by Revelation13_16
Stop right there.

1. I’m not going to discuss The Fall and God’s omniscience, because it opens a Pandora’s Box involving Supralapsarianism and Determinism

jen
Well, aren’t you special calling what I can discuss and can’t. Give me a BIG break…

Read, I said I’m not going to discuss it.

rev
2) Jesus was begotten, not made.

jen
Begotten–means PROCREATED/GENERATED (Made has a connotation of being prepared or artificially produced) The Latin may be more precise, I’m not sure. So Jesus–his HUMAN form was created in Mary by God (the Holy Spirit).

If you argue with begotten, you argue with the Nicene Creed.

If you argue with the Nicene Creed, you are a heretic.

Nicene Creed

“And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;”

rev
What did Jesus say about Judas?

“It would have been better for him that he was never born”

jen
And yet he was and served Jesus’ purpose.

True.

But fi you consider where he is now …

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

From what I’m understnading of the OP, he/she actually thinks its a sin for humans to procreate?

Not a sin per se.

To say bringing children into the world is a sin and wrong is throwing God’s work in His face and telling Him that His decisions are wrong

I never said it’s a sin.

I did say it’s wrong.

I never once blamed God.

Please strive to comprehend better.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Revelation13_16;1929832:

Do you believe in sacraments at all?

I’m a Protestant, so yes.

A sacrament is an expression of Christ present in our midst. We believe that marriage between a baptised man and woman is sacramental because it mirrors the relationship between God and His people, that is faithfully committed to each other in a covenant relationship.

This is nice.

Marriage, when experienced between the husband and wife faithfully and prayerfully, is a great means of grace due to the fact that they can spend the rest of their lives serving, loving, placing the needs of their spouse above their own.

I totally agree, you’re a great spokesperson for marriage.

So yes marriage without breeding is truly beautiful … but also truly implausable - unless both parties sterilize themselves, and I’m not sure God would want that.

Therefore, celibacy seems the only safe option to avoid angering God, and also avoid bringing kids into the world.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Durendin]

I’ve read though this whole thread and I find myself empathising with Rev’s conclusions.

I was born pre-mature and not expected to survive, so was given the last rites and baptism whilst in an incubator. Obviously, I survived, (or else this would be “ghost” writing!).

To be honest, I feel a little cheated. If I hadn’t survived, I would have gone straight to Heaven for an eternity of bliss and happiness. Unfortunately, I now have to live a life where stupid human mistakes and weaknesses will probably trip me up and damn me to eternal torment.Couple this with all the pain and suffering of this world?

The logical conclusion is that it would have been much better for me to have died and reaped the benefit rather than live for a human lifetime (a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity) and risk it all over a stupid mistake or choice. (Not one in particular, I’m illustrating the point!)

 

[marci]

If you argue with the Nicene Creed, you are a heretic

 

[Revelation13_16]

Are you serious here?

What part do you find unbelievable?

You don’t believe marriage is a sacrament, but you are considering the priesthood?

Protestants only have 2 sacraments remember?

“Our Father who Art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kindom come, Thy Will be done…”

I have two passages for you, and a question.

first passage

1 Corinthians 7:32-35

“I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.”

second passage

2 Peter 3:9

" The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

Question:

Since there are so many already born that need to come to repentance (the harvest is plentiful, the laborers few), do you think it’s God’s will that you make more souls that will need to come to repentance to avoid hell when you could be using your time preaching to the lost souls in the world?

One can not be in a state of sin and a state of grace at the same time. If ones misses mass, they must go to confession before going to Communion.

You missed the words “every night”, we’re not talking about Sunday here.

Better than what?

Elephant rides.

Marriage ofcourse.

The human race as we know it comes to an end because everyone stops procreating.

No, the pagans will still reproduce, atheists don’t believe in hell.

You’ve already been given verses in previous posts where having children is encouraged.

Answer my question above.

Think about all the little saints a saintly mother could raise by accepting life from God openly. This call to the vocation of motherhood, or fatherhood comes from the same Holy Spirit that calls individuals to the consecrated life.

Answer my question above.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Jennifer123]

Jennifer123;1929877:

So yes marriage without breeding is truly beautiful … but also truly implausable - unless both parties sterilize themselves, and I’m not sure God would want that.

Therefore, celibacy seems the only safe option to avoid angering God, and also avoid bringing kids into the world.

God Bless,
Rev

Hmm…I’m having the worst trouble posting lately. Sorry if this shows up twice but…
Children are the natural expression of the marital embrace between a husband and wife, just as the Holy Spirit is the natural expression to us from the love between God and His only begotten son, Jesus.
Human sexuality was created by God and the only natural course is to have children, so I’m not sure why this would anger God.