Why you should think that the Natural-Evolution of species is true

[buffalo]

Well if everything is designed …

It is as God created the entire universe.

God “breathed” the super language of DNA into the “kinds” in the creative act.

This accounts for the diversity of life we see. The core makeup shared by all living things have the necessary complex information built in that facilitates rapid and responsive adaptation of features and variation while being able to preserve the “kind” that they began as. Life has been created with the creativity built in ready to respond to triggering events.

Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on Earth have the same core, it is virtually certain that living organisms have been thought of AT ONCE by the One and the same Creator endowed with the super language we know as DNA that switched on the formation of the various kinds, the cattle, the swimming creatures, the flying creatures, etc… in a pristine harmonious state and superb adaptability and responsiveness to their environment for the purpose of populating the earth

 

[IWantGod]

But as to possibilities, I utterly disagree that it’s not designed.

Possibilities are not designed. God created physical reality to behave in a particular way. You could say that is designed (the laws of physics) in so far as there is intentionality behind it’s existence.

However unless you believe in a completely deterministic Universe it is not necessary for Catholics to reject the idea that there is chance or randomness behind variation. That thing can be blue need not mean that any particular thing has to be blue. And one need not think that God determines variation at any particular point, or that a thing should be there as opposed to other here. God allows for the existence of secondary causality, which means that God allows things to act according to their nature and he allows those natures to express their possibilities or potentialities. The universe, as revealed by science, acts and develops according to that point of view and is consistent with a Thomistic view of reality. The fact that the earth formed and appeared 149.6 million km away from the sun happened naturally and there was some chance involved in that occurrence. It is not designed if by that you mean God intentionally placed the planet earth 149.6 million km away from the sun (that is to say the earth was a miracle). And neither is the Ebola virus designed.

A Catholic need not take that point of view and neither do i think it’s reasonable to do so.

Also, even if we take Adam and Eve out of the equation, one would still have to say that God intentionally designed the ebola virus to kill primates, even if Adam and Eve could not be effected before the fall.

Any reasonable person is going to find that odd and will have a hard timed making it compatible with the Catholic concept of God.
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[Rubee]

God allows things to act according to their nature and he allows those natures to express their possibilities or potentialities.

…And those natures, with 100% of their potentialities and possibilities, are created and receive their being from God. I still fail to see where you struggle with design. Do you think creatures give themselves their natures, their potentialities, and their possibilities? Where would they possibly acquire any potentialities they haven’t been imbued with by God?

And no. There’s absolutely no such thing as “chance” or even luck. It’s impossible as no single possibility is unforeseen and unchosen by the creator and no capacity do they have that they get anywhere besides him.

 

[buffalo]

Also, even if we take Adam and Eve out of the equation, one would still have to say that God intentionally designed the ebola virus to kill primates

A lot has happened after and as a result of the fall. The universe fell into decay…

 

[IWantGod]

…And those natures, with 100% of their potentialities and possibilities, are created and receive their being from God.

The natural development of the universe is sustained in existence by God; that is to say that God gives actuality to it’s development and being. God is not designing each event, but rather God is allowing physical reality to act according to it’s nature and express it’s possibilities accordingly. The universe is not a puppet on a string.

Perhaps you mean something different when you say design, but i think it’s clear where i stand nonetheless.

 

[Rubee]

Also, even if we take Adam and Eve out of the equation, one would still have to say that God intentionally designed the ebola virus to kill primates , even if Adam and Eve could not be effected before the fall.

Any reasonable person is going to find that odd and will have a hard timed making it compatible with the Catholic concept of God.

Please don’t with the “any reasonable person”. God can kill primates. It would not be immoral. God is not you or me. And yes. It would not be possible for Ebolah to kill us if God did not allow it from the beginning, as neither the virus nor the primate grant themselves their properties, nor does the environment grant itself its properties. I disagree that it’s compatible for us to believe in chance as you put it. You’re describing a universe that is in part under it’s own control. Nothing happens that God does not allow.

 

[Rubee]

The natural development of the universe is sustained in existence by God; that is to say that God gives actuality to it’s development and being. God is not designing each event, but rather God is allowing physical reality to act according to it’s nature and express it’s possibilities accordingly. The universe is not a puppet on a string.

Perhaps you mean something different when you say design, but i think it’s clear where i stand nonetheless

I think you’re misusing the word “design”. Like I said not every possibility God put in his design is directly wanted or willed by him. For example, all death and suffering. Most of it happens under his permissive will. But we know from Noah, Sodom, and other stories, that God can directly will the death of human beings. When it happens, it’s for their good in ways we can’t see. Perhaps it’s their only chance at repentance.

 

[IWantGod]

God can kill primates. It would not be immoral. God is not you or me.

I agree, God is love, and it makes no rational sense why God would design an ebola virus to kill primates. What is the point?

My God is a rational God. God doesn’t do things for no rational reason. It doesn’t matter that there is nothing technically wrong with it.

The universe is intelligible, and while God is largely beyond our comprehension, it is reasonable to think that God would act according to his nature and wouldn’t do unreasonable things. Your point of view makes the idea of the universe and God unintelligible. That’s the problem i have with the intelligent design position.

 

[Rubee]

I agree, God is love, and it makes no rational sense why God would design an ebola virus to kill primates. What is the point.

Don’t forget though, you have no view of the future and every possible paths that men may take, so in all honesty, what you think is sensible is highly limited to say the least. Bible says man’s wisdom is God’s foolishness.

We simply cannot say that there are possibilities that have the power to defy God’s will and happen without his full knowledge and will just because we think that’s not very loving. It has happened, so it has been permitted. That’s not arguable in an y reasonable sense. Ebolah is not more powerful than God. Neither is death.

 

[IWantGod]

Bible says man’s wisdom is God’s foolishness.

This applies to you as well.

 

[Rubee]

Of course. But then again, I’m not the one judging God’s allowance of death by Ebolah as irrational…My position is to refuse to place my “wisdom” on that level.

 

[IWantGod]

Ebolah is not more powerful than God. Neither is death.

It’s one thing for God to permit evil for the sake of a greater good, but it’s an entirely different thing to say that God designs evil.

Similarly, it’s one thing to say that God allows for the physical manifestation of ebola as a possibility, but it is an entirely different thing to say that God designed ebola to kill primates and now human-beings since the fall of man.

It’s like saying God designed a nuclear bomb, but it’s okay because we cannot know his ways.

Human beings might be limited in their knowledge, but we are not idiots.

 

[Rubee]

It’s one thing for God to permit evil for the sake of a greater good, but it’s an entirely different thing to say that God designs evil.

You have a simple choice here: God designed the universe vulnerable to distortion. This is what you call “evil”. I’m sorry, but the universe did not design itself. It would not be possible for our sin to distort it if this had not been part of it’s design. We are not that powerful. Even our capacity to sin is part of our design, not our sins> Hence, animals cannot sin. In the same way demons cannot die. Neither animals, nor demons, nor humans, nor the universe gave themselves their nature, power, or limits.

 

[Rubee]

Human beings might be limited in their knowledge, but we are not idiots.

Oh, except we utterly are! Especially when we are trying to judge the morality and rationality of divine acts.

 

[IWantGod]

It would not be possible for our sin to distort it if this had not been part of it’s design.

I was not aware that this was a part of catholic dogma. Of course you have to take this position if you want intelligent design to be consistent, but it is not my understanding that the catholic church teaches that the fall of man is responsible for how other organic natures behave.

I dare you to show me evidence of this Catholic Teaching.

Also, i need not be restricted to the parameters that you present. It is my view that God created physical reality to act according to it’s nature and to express it’s intrinsic possibilities or potentialities accordingly. This is consistent with the Thomistic view of secondary causality and is not inconsistent with Church Teaching.

 

[Rubee]

I dare you to show me evidence of this Catholic Teaching.

[408] The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”.300 This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men’s sins.301

[400] The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”,285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history .286

You might also want to read scripture about the “cursed ground” after the fall.

 

[IWantGod]

Oh, except we utterly are! Especially when we are trying to judge the morality and rationality of divine acts.

What you are arguing is not consistent with what God has revealed. And we can judge whether or not it is reasonable for God to do something; otherwise you could say it’s okay for Jesus Christ to rape men and women, and we would just have to accept it.

Obviously that is not reasonable

 

[Rubee]

What you are arguing is not consistent with what God has revealed.

To the contrary, what you’re arguing is not consistent with what God revealed and what the Church teaches.

 

[Rubee]

And we can judge whether or not it is reasonable for God to do something; otherwise you could say it’s okay for Jesus Christ to rape men and women, and we would just have to accept it.

This is a silly analogy unless you can show this^^^ in reality. You are arguing against reality, not fantastic imaginations about God doing horrible things. It’s not in my imagination that Ebolah has killed thousands and this has been allowed by God ans was allowed from all eternity.

 

[IWantGod]

[408] The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”.300 This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men’s sins.301

[400] The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”,285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history .286

Nothing in these quotes implies or teaches that biological organisms changed due to the fall of man, but rather it speaks of how man’s relationship with nature was effected.