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edwest
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God works infallibly in his Creation. I think the call to exclude the supernatural is just convenient for some.
Why you should think that the Natural-Evolution of species is true
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Bradskii
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Straw man. Nobody is excluding the supernatural (as in God) from any discussion. He is implicitly included in ALL discussions in EVERY post on this forum, including scientific discussions.
But if you wish to include a supernatural explantion for a scientific event, then it is no longer a scientific discussion but a theological one.
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edwest
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Divine Revelation and the Church have and will continue to have a say in “scientific” discussions.
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Bradskii
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Implied Straw man. Of course they will. But they offer theological explanations. Not scientific ones. Which you already knew - which is why you had to use scare quotes around ‘scientific’.
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edwest
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Careful. My baloney detector just switched on. People explicitly mention statements by Popes and the Church regarding the theory. You know that.
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Bradskii
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Implied straw man. If they proffer divine explanations for any event and exclude scientific ones, then it is a theological discussion. If they discuss scientific explanations (whilst obviously including God) then it is a scientific discussion.
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buffalo
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No, there is ID, the philosophy and there is ID, the science.
Evo and ID both have philosophical implications.
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buffalo
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Yet science cannot say anything about Divinity. So, by its own definition it has painted itself into a corner.
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edwest
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That’s all I’m saying. Catholics not only believe God exists but that He did something. There is a living God.
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buffalo
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Nope. You make a big mistake here. ID, the science simply looks for evidence of design.
Is Intelligent Design a Scientific Theory?
Yes. The scientific method is commonly described as a four-step process involving observations, hypothesis, experiments, and conclusion. Intelligent design begins with the observation that intelligent agents produce complex and specified information (CSI). Design theorists hypothesize that if a natural object was designed, it will contain high levels of CSI. Scientists then perform experimental tests upon natural objects to determine if they contain complex and specified information. One easily testable form of CSI is irreducible complexity, which can be discovered by experimentally reverse-engineering biological structures to see if they require all of their parts to function. When ID researchers find irreducible complexity in biology, they conclude that such structures were designed.
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edwest
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Very well said. Reverse engineering of the human genome is going on right now. That’s the only way scientists are going to identify what does what.
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Bradskii
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So if an organism contains complex and organism specific info (no, Bradskii - leave it there, accept it as a given for the sake of the argument), then God made it.Vonsalza:
Nope. You make a big mistake here. ID, the science simply looks for evidence of design.
Is Intelligent Design a Scientific Theory?
Yes. The scientific method is commonly described as a four-step process involving observations, hypothesis, experiments, and conclusion. Intelligent design begins with the observation that intelligent agents produce complex and specified information (CSI). Design theorists hypothesize that if a natural object was designed, it will contain high levels of CSI. Scientists then perform experimental tests upon natural objects to determine if they contain complex and specified information. One easily testable form of CSI is irreducible complexity, which can be discovered by experimentally reverse-engineering biological structures to see if they require all of their parts to function. When ID researchers find irreducible complexity in biology, they conclude that such structures were designed.
If it doesn’t, then…?
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Bradskii
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I’m glad you cleared that up.
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buffalo
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Ask Dawkins. He thinks it was aliens and that would be OK with him as long as these aliens evolved by a Darwinian method.
The existence of intelligent design exists. You use it daily. It is easily recognizable.
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edwest
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??? Or to put it another way: ???
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edwest
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Your car, your computer, just designed themselves. And the biological machines called humans just designed themselves. It should be obvious.
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Bradskii
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I’m not asking anyone but you. And you know Dawkins doesn’t think it was aliens - you’ve seen the whole clip. And I’m not asking if intelligent design exists.Bradskii:
Ask Dawkins. He thinks it was aliens and that would be OK with him as long as these aliens evolved by a Darwinian method.
The existence of intelligent design exists. You use it daily. It is easily recognizable.
You have posted a quote that says that if complex and organism (or object I assume) specific information is detected (we won’t discuss the details), then God made it.
What if it doesn’t contain that information?
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Bradskii
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You seem confused about the discussion. There is no scientific concept of design in evolutionary theory. Only a theological acceptance that God was involved.
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buffalo
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If it does not contain functional complex specified information it could be a natural pattern. All patterns are not designed, but all codes, languages, symbols, plans and such always contain patterns.
Science can say nothing about who the designer may be. That is for philosophy and the argument moves there. Evolutionists play in the philosophy areas all day long since their evo claims are not empirical.
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buffalo
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Before they took out the formal and final causes? Methodological naturalsim a priori rules it out. Is that the science we wish to do?
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