Why you should think that the Natural-Evolution of species is true

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goout:
And so God ordering destruction must be read in the proper context.
Whatever the context, it is still God ordering destruction, no doubt for Godly reasons. To deny that God can order destruction is obviously a misreading.
You assume a literalist reading of the passage “God ordered them to destroy…”
Hence, the idea the evolution cannot be of God because it involves destruction is incorrect. Merely involving destruction is insufficient; more detail of the argument is needed.

rossum
A good case can be made that evolution is not destruction of anything. It is a continual reforming, reshaping, evolving.

And Christians should take note: Scripture is not the sum total of revelation. Nature also reveals God. Scientific discovery points to God. Evolution tells us something about God.
God reveals himself through Scripture, and nature, and fully and finally in the person of Jesus Christ.
II. THE STAGES OF REVELATION

In the beginning God makes himself known

[54] "God, who creates and conserves all things by his Word, provides men with constant evidence of himself in created realities.
Note that this “constant evidence” is not dead in the letter.
And this is why fundamentalism is anathema to Christianity: it
makes itself incapable of accepting the full truth of the incarnation itself.
God is living, and reveals himself in a living way. Science helps discover the living God.
Ref:
P. Benedict
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedi...ts/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20100930_verbum-domini.html
 
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WileyC1949:
Definition of “Biblical Inspiration” from The Catechism of the Catholic Church, p 868:

“The gift of the Holy Spirit which assisted a human author to write a biblical book so that it has God as its author and teaches faithfully, without error, the saving truth that God has willed to be consigned to us. ” (italics added)

What is inspired in the Bible is that which is important to know for salvation. What is NOT inspired is the history, science or sociology which is found in the Bible.
For thousands of years the Holy Spirit let us get it wrong?
The Holy Spirit allows a person to think, to breathe, to live, to discover, to grow. Science aids a person in that process. Inspiration does not guarantee full scientific and historical accuracy. Inspiration is much deeper than that. And if you are going to insist on this fundamentalist idea of inspiration, than you will have to show us the dome in the sky. It’s in the bible, and if the bible is that kind of fact, show us the dome.

Confining inspiration to the literalist viewpoint yields a god that is as big as your own understanding. The true God is much larger than your individual perspective and understanding.

The Holy Spirit brings unity, both between peoples, and also the full integration of the human person, body and soul, faith and reason.
As Catholics, we are called to be fully and wholly human, and we are creatures of both faith and reason.
 
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Inspiration is much deeper than that. And if you are going to insist on this fundamentalist idea of inspiration, than you will have to show us the dome in the sky. It’s in the bible, and if the bible is that kind of fact, show us the dome .
gogout: I was arguing AGAINST the fundamentalist idea of inspiration. What IS inspired is what is necessary for salvation. The “For thousands of years the Holy Spirit let us get it wrong” quote was from buffalo.
 
“All the elements of reality are soulless.”
When one realises this by wisdom,
then one does not heed ill.
This is the Path of Purity.

– Dhammapada 20:5-7
“Soul” has different meanings and connotations. The way it is being used in the quote has to do with things being soulless in the sense that they are relational and ultimately not caused by themselves but by a transcendent Relationality. We may exercise our free will, but it has been granted to us as spirits rooted in eternity. Atoms are souless in the sense that there is nothing there but the various relationships that determine what they do. These qualities are brought into existence in their moment, coming from nothing and being nothing apart from what they are as created by God. The collection of qualities, the relationships that are established by matter, I refer to as their soul. We as a unity, who here is reading this, typing out words that express thoughts that arise are similarly a being, a soul brought into existence, although composed of an almost infinite collection of atoms arranged in accordance with a psychological sturcture which shpaes this experience, reflecting our particular relational nature.
 
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show us the dome
It’s hard to see in a picture, but imagine yourself there. Look out, way out, then gradually lift your gaze upwards, over and around to the other side.

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Can you see a vast turtle shell that is the world.

It’s hard to see. You first have to put aside the Hubble images when you look up.

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Who knows what our children’s children’s children’s children will see?
 
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How so? That claim has been made. See Richard Dawkins, who should know better. I watched him on TV and he used the ‘evidence’ to rail against a being he claims he’s not sure exists. These types of threads will continue to exist.
 
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goout:
show us the dome
It’s hard to see in a picture, but imagine yourself there. Look out, way out, then gradually lift your gaze upwards, over and around to the other side.

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Now you are really not going to believe this. But that is a picture of Agiofarago beach on the south coast of Crete and ten minutes ago I booked a hotel a few minutes away from there. I’ll be swimming there sometime tomorrow so I’ll try the lifty gazy thing and let you know if I’m moved in any way or if I spot any dome-type visions. Maybe a few glasses of ouzo will help.
 
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Why gee. Chris is expounding EXACTLY what everyone else on this thread is trying to tell you. YOU are the one that disagrees with him.

And again I will ask you: Who in this thread, indeed anywhere in this forum, is using evolution to deny God’s existence? Your pathetic claim that people are trying so to do fools no-one. It doesn’t even fool you. Even what you just linked to is a denial of your very position.
 
No. The Church now has it right. You and those who believe that every story in the Bible is literal truth. Was there literally a “Sermon on the Mount” where Christ listed off the Beatitudes? Most experts today would say “No”. Certainly all those things were said by Christ but more likely at various times but they were gathered together by the author to make for better understanding and emphasis. Does the fact that Christ may have said them at various times rather than all at once change the meaning of any of the Beatitudes? No. Putting them together drives the meaning home more efficiently. The story of the “Sermon on the Mount” may have been a literary device, but the meaning certainly wasn’t.
So Eve did not really come from Adam? and the Holy Spirit led the Church in error for so long? Hmmmmmm
 
Nice!

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Have one for me.
 
Of course the claim has been made, but that doesn’t make it true. Dawkins’ claims are unlogical and dont prove anything, which I’m sure you would agree with. Making a false claim doesn’t make an idea false
 
I disagree with very little of what you’re saying.

But does an objectively “random” process immediately disqualify God’s hand guiding it?
Assuming evolution doesn’t mean humans aren’t the pinnical of creation – they obviously are. But taking the time to get to the pinnacle, as in millions of years (potentially) doesn’t equate to where we are at now being cheap or not made in the image of God.

There are cases to be made for and against both ideas – we simply don’t know enough to definitively say what the origins of humanity are, much like the origins of the universe. It’s okay to acknowledge what we don’t definitively know
 
Does the lack of existence of a real man made from dirt that walked next to a corporal God and conversed with a taking snake truly sound a death gong to Christianity?

Or would the lack of existence of a first man and the original sin he brought into the world, so this?
 
So Eve did not really come from Adam? and the Holy Spirit led the Church in error for so long? Hmmmmmm
Even various POPES have said that it is not obligatory to accept the story of Adam & Eve as the actual literal specific creation history of our first forebears. Pope Pius XII declared that “the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God” (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36).

The word “Adam” means “all men”. The word “Eve” as the Bible states means "the mother of all living. So the names used point to a more general concept then specific people. The Church allows for evolution, the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms with the guidance of God. But somewhere along the line God infused an individual soul and what was an animal became man.

I think it is at that point that the story focus. It seems to me that prior to what is referred to as the “fall” what became humans were still animals. They were living in a kind of special paradise but not because of where they were living but rather the fact that were oblivious how their lives could be better. Like other animals they lived by the status quo. The had no concept of evil or decency. Animals do not know nor care about the fact that they are naked, If a dog loses a leg he quickly adapts to the new status quo and learns to run on three legs. He doesn’t moan about his missing leg nor think it makes him less like other dogs. When another dog that he played with dies again he quickly adapts to the new stature quo. A wolf who attacks and kills a man would not be considered as doing something “evil”. He just was being a wolf. He doesn’t consider the pain that he caused the man. That is the state that I believed we find our first forebears prior to their becoming fully human in the story of Adam & Eve. So what changed?

It seems evident to me that the story is speaking about man becoming fully human with a God-given soul when he developed a conscience (ate from the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”). That itself was not in the story the “sin” because knowledge is necessary for sin to be present. The first sin followed quickly after when according to the story they refused to take responsibility for their actions… Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent. But just as we do not inherit the sins committed by our parents nor do we inherit A & E’s sin. What we inherited from our first forebears was the ability to commit sin.
 
It’s okay to acknowledge what we don’t definitively know
It’s not only a sign of wisdom, but the outcome of knowledge, in that knowing more involves a growing appreciation of what we don’t know as we plunge into the mysteries of existence. That said, what drives our search is the desire for Truth, to be satisfied face to face with God. After that it is a joyous revelation of His Glory.
 
he developed a conscience
You have obviously put in a lot of effort trying to express your belief in evolution using a Christian metaphor.

While the phrase above expresses an idea, it lacks precise meaning. Obviously, “man” did not actively develop a conscience. He would have been a passive recipient of a “conscience”. The word to me represents our internal dialogue with God, the Good, Love. As such it usually involves His reaching out to us, as He did in the story of Cain. That relationship must pre-exist, which is to say that there needs be an aspect of our soul that includes free will and the capacity to know. We cannot be instinctive creatures, perceiving, understanding and behaving in a preset, determined fashion. So, the suggestion that we may have chosen to have a conscience runs into trouble because it presupposes that a conscience must already exist. There could be no warning not to eat it because we eat what we would have been programmed to eat.

Let’s assume that animals were given spiritual souls à la Aslan in Narnia, where he creates that world giving speech and reason to pairs of animals. This would involve a transformation of a primitive purely material soul into an eternal one. As the core reality of what anything is, I don’t see how it is possible for one soul to become another. It would be like you becoming me. If we consider an embryo or zygote as simply a collection of cells, it could be that a soul is bestowed on them, created as it were using living matter. The genetics and associated processes may have been tweaked to produce a larger brain. Alternatively, the desire of greater intellectual capacity may have driven ape-like creatures to instinctively prefer mates with characteristics that approximated that eventual ideal. Again, the mass of cells arising from a specific couple could have been ensouled with the spirit, the breath of God. The way I see things, what exists does so as a unity. Each kind of living being is capable through God’s gift of life, to reproduce itself; there is no actual ensoulment after the first and animal forebears mankind would produced animal offspring from the embryonic stage onwards. The bottom line is that it boils down to a belief, which if true, would have been stated in Genesis.

I don’t understand what exactly the Pope was talking about stating that mankind could have been created using living matter. It sounds like he is trying to reach a compromise, accepting that it is not necessarily idolatry, worshipping the world as creator of mankind, to believe in evolution. Those who accept it blindly are in a different position than those who advocate for it however, and the latter should reflect on how their beliefs may conflict with those of the church.
 
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goout:
Inspiration is much deeper than that. And if you are going to insist on this fundamentalist idea of inspiration, than you will have to show us the dome in the sky. It’s in the bible, and if the bible is that kind of fact, show us the dome .
gogout: I was arguing AGAINST the fundamentalist idea of inspiration. What IS inspired is what is necessary for salvation. The “For thousands of years the Holy Spirit let us get it wrong” quote was from buffalo.
I was not addressing you. Your quote was part of the context.
 
In this case, a group of interbreeding metazoa.
As you have used the term “specie” as a category, a definition particular to one case is too restrictive to have any meaning. Please give us your general definition of “specie”.
 
Most folks think it already sufficiently proofed. The vast majority of the small segment of holdouts do so only because they think it conflicts with their ideas on God.
Of course, you know that the above is the logical fallacy argumentum ad populum. Please try again,
 
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