Why?

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I read a lot on most of the sites posted here regularly and I am very concerned that there are a lot of people out there worrying themselves sick about issues around rules to do either with sin/confession, or communion. A lot of fear coming through loud and clear. I relate to that fear well because it was partly all that scrupulosity that drove me away originally. I believe Jesus would not want people all wound up and bound up in fear because they dont know if they have made a proper confession or think they are condemed because something they might have done or not done correctly. Jesus forgives true repentance and He forgets the sin immediately. Why has the Church over the centuries built up this type of situation where the rules regarding practises of confession, venial and mortal sin issues, etc etc have induced such fear? Prior to the New Testament, the world was under the law . When Christ came and died, all believers were released from law, into grace. The New Testament is grace bound. The Church on the other hand still seems incredibly law bound and I have seen many Catholic buckle under the strain of trying to keep all the laws, and forgetting about the Saviour in the process. Surely that is not what Our Lord meant to happen? He came to set people free, not bound up in fear?
I know for me–before…I didn’t examine myself ENOUGH…it’s easier to take your salvation for granted (especially in a one saved always saved doctrine). Right now–yes I do worry about it more then I might later because I haven’t been through RCIA…it isn’t ingrained in my heart. Right now…I’m trying to do what my priest says to do…look at everything as to do what is pleasing to God. I think before–I was not honest enough with myself…and pride would sweep in. I probably had a million “well, it’s not really a sin because…” But I knew in my heart that wasn’t right either…so I wasn’t really free in that kind of thinking. Now–I feel such peace after reconciliation…now that is freedom!👍
 
But it’s not the Church that teaches confession to priests, it is Christ Himself.

Jesus said to the disciples first thing after His resurrection: Receive the Holy Ghost; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (John 20:22-23)

And if you must insist that all people could do the right thing without the Church, are you also going to insist that all people could be good without the help of God?

You probably would say that all they need is to read the Bible. But without the Church there wouldn’t even be the Bible.

Did Jesus found a Church, or did He mostly chose the disciples for the only purpose of waiting for them to write the new Testament?

If Jesus’ mission was to found a Church and not to write a book, then do you think it is right for us to say that the Church is not central in the salvation of mankind?

My own experience has told me that it is impossible for me to do right without the Catholic Church, because I wouldn’t have known how merciful Jesus is. I wouldn’t have know His Mother Mary, who is always here to intercede for me with her Son. I wouldn’t have had a Church family that makes my home. I wouldn’t have access to Eucharist, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of my Lord.

These things may not seem to matter to you at this point, but don’t assume that they don’t matter in God’s scheme of things.
 
Seek, what happened to your last post? You quoted my response but said nothing else. Did you delete your reply by accident?
 
You have a clear misunderstanding of rules and regulations on how an individual is to conduct oneself, in The Kingdom, or in life!

You seem unaware that there are several hundred statutes and regulations ‘confining’ your very existence in your society EVERY hour of your life! Criminal laws; Traffic laws; Consumer laws; Council or Local laws; Constitutional rights; International laws…etc.

They number in the thousands by the end of the week, but you don’t notice them much. WHY? Because you accept them and live within them.

So too, a Catholic! If you live ‘within’… you hardly notice them…but…you know when you falter!

:cool:
In civilized society, if your charged with any offence, your preumed iinocent until proven guilty and your entitled to a afair hearing. In most cases, if found guilty, you’ll be given a finite punishment…for having committed a finite offence.

In most cases, the guilty can receive pardons and have their convictions stricken from the system and for minor traffic offences, they’re expunged automatically over time.

With God, your guilty as soon as your born and if you die with just one finite mortal sin on your sould, God assures your punished infinitely with no opportunity for a hearing or even appeal.

That’s the difference and likely why people get so stressed.
 
Honestly, in every parish I’ve even been a member of, I’ve never noticed any people who were all “bound up in fear,” or “buckling under the strain of trying to keep all the laws.” Just the opposite; usually they are a pretty relaxed bunch.

I think a lot of postings on this forum about issues such as “was this a sin” and “was this confession valid” arise from the fact that that’s what scrupulous people do–always seeking a second opinion. Your average parishioner never worries about the validity of his confession or other sacraments.
 
But it’s not the Church that teaches confession to priests, it is Christ Himself.

Jesus said to the disciples first thing after His resurrection: Receive the Holy Ghost; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (John 20:22-23)

And if you must insist that all people could do the right thing without the Church, are you also going to insist that all people could be good without the help of God?

You probably would say that all they need is to read the Bible. But without the Church there wouldn’t even be the Bible.

Did Jesus found a Church, or did He mostly chose the disciples for the only purpose of waiting for them to write the new Testament?

If Jesus’ mission was to found a Church and not to write a book, then do you think it is right for us to say that the Church is not central in the salvation of mankind?

My own experience has told me that it is impossible for me to do right without the Catholic Church, because I wouldn’t have known how merciful Jesus is. I wouldn’t have know His Mother Mary, who is always here to intercede for me with her Son. I wouldn’t have had a Church family that makes my home. I wouldn’t have access to Eucharist, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of my Lord.

These things may not seem to matter to you at this point, but don’t assume that they don’t matter in God’s scheme of things.
Hi my computer went funny and my answers to you did not go through. I will try again, sorry about that. Point 1.I believe that the apostles passed on the gift to forgive to leaders they trained, they were not “priests as such” at that time, nor was there a Catholic Church.My question to you is that why then cant all christians bind and loose on earth? As we forgive other people who have harmed us, surely those hurts are released. When people, or Priests, or confessors of Authority forgive us, our sins are released. So if I confess to God directly, He would loose my sins because He is God. Im not knocking Priests at all here. I just believe we all have the gift of forgiving, and God can forgive directly.Point 2. We all have need of God and the Bible is God inspired, so those people, and there are many, can be saved through direct reading of His Word. We are encouraged to go to Church because it is Gods desire for us to be strengthed together and encourage one another in unity as the apostles did.Point3.Respecting your view, I believe all christian churches as well as the Catholic Churches are places people can worship God,in Spirit and Truth. As Ive mentioned, there were no churches as such in the beginning. I would guess christians met in homes and whereever outdoors meetings took place. My view is the Church is not a denomination, it is the vast numbers of true believers. Buildings are what we worship in, but the congregations are the church.Doyou not find it comforting to know that you can pray directly to God as well as intercessory prayers?With respect, to seek.
 
In civilized society, if your charged with any offence, your preumed iinocent until proven guilty and your entitled to a afair hearing. In most cases, if found guilty, you’ll be given a finite punishment…for having committed a finite offence.

In most cases, the guilty can receive pardons and have their convictions stricken from the system and for minor traffic offences, they’re expunged automatically over time.

With God, your guilty as soon as your born and if you die with just one finite mortal sin on your sould, God assures your punished infinitely with no opportunity for a hearing or even appeal.

That’s the difference and likely why people get so stressed.
With respect all one has to do, say if you cannot get to your Priest before you die, is sincerely go before the Lord and confess that sin or sins and you will be forgiven. Millions of people do not even see a Priest so what would happen to them if your theory about mortal sin is correct? Yes all serious sin Must be confessed, but remember it is God alone who knows the heart of each one of us.We in the western rich countries have plenty of churches and Priests. Other countries do not. Just because you might get to an official confession does not mean that all those other people who have mortal or serious sin are condemed does it? I understand what you are saying, but God is God and He will forgive anytime, anyplace if a person is truly repentant. The point is a lot of Catholics are riddled with fear they might not get to confession before they die , not understanding that in a split second of time they can be forgiven. Who and where did that teaching come from anyway? God or The RC Church?That is why so many get scupulous and scared. To seek.
 
Honestly, in every parish I’ve even been a member of, I’ve never noticed any people who were all “bound up in fear,” or “buckling under the strain of trying to keep all the laws.” Just the opposite; usually they are a pretty relaxed bunch.

I think a lot of postings on this forum about issues such as “was this a sin” and “was this confession valid” arise from the fact that that’s what scrupulous people do–always seeking a second opinion. Your average parishioner never worries about the validity of his confession or other sacraments.
With respect, I have been in many rehabs where the majority were excatholics who were really bound up in fear and all had very strong feelings about how some of the catholic teachings affected them. To the point they have trouble even believing in God at all. Im talking about all types of people within society, yes including priests. The people who suffer this fear generally dont stick around the Parishes. They leave, with a lot of anger, disillusionment and despair. This happens in other churches also, but I was shocked to see how many excatholics there were in this position. I guess you wouldnt meet them, because as I said, they dont stay around, and I guess you are lucky enough never to have been in a rehab to see these people.
 
Hi “To Seek,”

Glad to hear back from you. I think your perspective has very good intentions. You are thinking a lot about the vulnerability of the human soul and the need to make God approachable. I think you do care a lot about people; that’s probably why you are so concerned about people who get scared or discouraged by Catholicism.

Since God knows everyone’s heart (every spot and shadow of it), I think anyone, either in the Church or outside, who sincerely searches for God will find Him and find Him in His fullness, regardless of their personality type. God will find a way to work out all their inner problems.

But with regard to the Church, you might want to read up on Church history. You can’t say there wasn’t a Church in the beginning. There was, and their spirit was totally Catholic, if you read the writings of early church fathers.

About Confession to priests. If you believe that Christ handed authority to disciples to hear confessions, then there must be a good reason for confessing to another person who is not God. If you have ever gone to confession, you’d know the healing power of the confessional. It is for the benefit of the sinner, not of the priest hearing confessions. It isn’t a fun job for priests.

Everything the Church teaches has a reason. It’s true humans can misunderstand, misinterpret and misuse things. But God must design His Church according to His Truth and purposes. We must be able to say as Christians, whatever God wants I will accept, no matter how difficult it feels to my psychology.

True religion must be God-centered not man-centered. We shouldn’t care about people in such a way that all we think about is to make them more comfortable. That is certainly not the purpose of God. His purpose is to make us holy, like Jesus Christ. It is not to make us feel good all the time.
 
With respect, I have been in many rehabs where the majority were excatholics who were really bound up in fear and all had very strong feelings about how some of the catholic teachings affected them. To the point they have trouble even believing in God at all. Im talking about all types of people within society, yes including priests. The people who suffer this fear generally dont stick around the Parishes. They leave, with a lot of anger, disillusionment and despair. This happens in other churches also, but I was shocked to see how many excatholics there were in this position. I guess you wouldnt meet them, because as I said, they dont stay around, and I guess you are lucky enough never to have been in a rehab to see these people.
I can see where being around “re-habs” and such places that deal with emotional and psychological issues, could also give a person a higher sensitivity to the problems of scrupulocity and OCD.

It can also give one a “Skewed” perspective as to how prevelant the problem is and perhaps even cause a misread on what the underlying causes are for the problem(s).

As we have mentioned earlier, there are millions of perfectly well adjusted catholics who don’t have these issues. There also may be things in the individuals make up (need for structure) that causes them to be drawn to The Church. They then become entrapped in a problem that pre-existed and is NOT the Church’s fault, but which can (and often is) blamed on The Church since that is where the problem became pathological.

These issues are a major concern and we must all try to help those with these kinds of problems. If that means that such a one cannot attend Catholic Church, so be it. God would understand.

Peace
James
 
I read a lot on most of the sites posted here regularly and I am very concerned that there are a lot of people out there worrying themselves sick about issues around rules to do either with sin/confession, or communion. A lot of fear coming through loud and clear. I relate to that fear well because it was partly all that scrupulosity that drove me away originally. I believe Jesus would not want people all wound up and bound up in fear because they dont know if they have made a proper confession or think they are condemed because something they might have done or not done correctly. Jesus forgives true repentance and He forgets the sin immediately. Why has the Church over the centuries built up this type of situation where the rules regarding practises of confession, venial and mortal sin issues, etc etc have induced such fear? Prior to the New Testament, the world was under the law . When Christ came and died, all believers were released from law, into grace. The New Testament is grace bound. The Church on the other hand still seems incredibly law bound and I have seen many Catholic buckle under the strain of trying to keep all the laws, and forgetting about the Saviour in the process. Surely that is not what Our Lord meant to happen? He came to set people free, not bound up in fear?
 
… Sins require repentance and we are required to repent and obey The Lord. Nothing else. …
Really? Then why does Our Lord Himself say the following?

John 20:21-23
“21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”

Why do St. James and St. John write this to the churches?
James 5:14] Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15] and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

1st John 1:9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Obeying the Lord would include doing what He wants about those times when we fail Him and sin.
 
… That doesnt mean that any other way is wrong because God would not be God then if the Church controlled these matters. …
Then why did Our Lord specifically say He was going to build His church? Notice the great authority He gives it.

Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Notice also His specifics as to the authority of the Church.

Matthew 18:5 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
 
My dear friend

If I can just offervsome thoughs. I think the first thing that happened after original sin was everything became a mistake. Man became obsessed with all being mistakes. In peoples heads at least subconsiously there are millons and millions of mistakes happening continually - it is near ifinite in number given noone knows all the millions of laws and rules we have made. We have a gigantic system of mosaic law even in the church, but everywhere. People are obsessed with not making mstakes. There are laws and rules governin everything. Most people don’t realise it is normal human behaviour to make mistakes as they learn from trial and error - it is learning. True you cannot sin, bt we are not meant to have these millions of laws and rules. And people make themselvs Gods enforcing them. We were meant to live naturally without all these laws and rules. If you think about absolutely everything you say, think or do in any situation ther are laws an rules galore and it’s endless. Given people become Gods and expect us to obey their laws and rules how can we know them all. As a result of everything becoming a mistake we have built up a cultue of punishment, and this is everywhere- in the church too. I am not condemnibg the church but it has the most severe cultue of punishment and it doesn’t know it. It makes rules that often result in infinite suffering in hell as the punishment for disobedience.

Perhaps people need to know about the cultue of punishment and that it’s ok to make mistakes. We just need to obey the natural law, and the churches laws which I wish had less severe punishments.

Fallen man can be very evil and evil people see other evil people as mistakes and everything they do as mistakes. Maybe the church should try to undrstand this and adopt a culture of love instead of punishment. I don’t want anarchy, bu we can’t keep driving everyone insane and killing them with stress and tauma from this - because this is whats happening, even if people don’t know it.

I’m not preaching anarchy or speaking against the church - I’m condemning the cultue of punishment.

God bless you:thumbsup:🙂

John
 
Point 1.I believe that the apostles passed on the gift to forgive to leaders they trained, they were not “priests as such” at that time, nor was there a Catholic Church.
you assume that what’s underlined, is true?

If you did even a tiny bit of research you’d know that what you said is false.
ts:
My question to you is that why then cant all christians bind and loose on earth?
Scripture and Tradition doesn’t teach it.
ts:
As we forgive other people who have harmed us, surely those hurts are released.

When people, or Priests, or confessors of Authority forgive us, our sins are released. So if I confess to God directly, He would loose my sins because He is God. Im not knocking Priests at all here. I just believe we all have the gift of forgiving, and God can forgive directly.
Ever hear the statement "ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ?


  1. *]Re: mortal sin. (yes scripture distinguishes mortal from non mortal sin) Why does scripture say that sins that aren’t mortal can be prayed about and God forgives them. But NOT the mortal kind? Why NOT? What then are you supposed to do with mortal sins if you can’t rid yourself of them with prayer like non mortal sins.? [1 Jn 5:16… ]
    *]Scripture says, Missing mass on Sunday (on the Day) as is the habit of some is already considered a deadly sin in the 1st century. The one who continues to miss mass on purpose after being warned NOT to, no longer has the sacrifice for sin benefiting them, but instead has judgement waiting for them and a furious fire that consumes the enemies of God. [Heb 10:19-26 ] WHY?
    ts:
    Point 2. We all have need of God and the Bible is God inspired, so those people, and there are many, can be saved through direct reading of His Word.
    It’s not reading, but putting into action what scripture teaches.
    ts:
    We are encouraged to go to Church because it is Gods desire for us to be strengthed together and encourage one another in unity as the apostles did.
    From the beginning when Christians met on Sunday, they celebrated the Eucharist. [Heb 10:19-26] THAT is the sacrifice for sin talked about here, and that they celebrated AND consumed. If one failed to meet as was the habit of some, they would blow off the Eucharist, they blow off the sacrifice for sin. Otherwise how could they be guilty of such a sin by just failing to meet together? Those who failed to meet were Blowing off the Eucharist, and as scripture says, this was a deadly sin. So deadly that all that remained for THEM who did this, was a raging fire that consumes the enemies of God. THAT’S a serious sin!!!

    Just like receiving the Eucharist in an unworthy manner [1 Cor 11:27]
    ts:
    Point3.Respecting your view, I believe all christian churches as well as the Catholic Churches are places people can worship God,in Spirit and Truth.
    Man can’t start a Church. Only God can. Therefore, Protestant communities aren’t churches. They are ALL man made organizations seeking God on their terms. God already established His Church in person, on HIS terms. The Catholic Church.
 
Really? Then why does Our Lord Himself say the following?

John 20:21-23
“21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”

Why do St. James and St. John write this to the churches?
James 5:14] Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15] and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

1st John 1:9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Obeying the Lord would include doing what He wants about those times when we fail Him and sin.
Hi, with regards to your first point, I do not disagree at all, that is scripture.St James and St John spoke to “the elders of the church” agreed. Does that mean they meant only priests? My point is that and perhaps my understanding is muddled, the elders could have been any that the apostles taught and sent into the world with their, and of course, Gods Authority. I believe that there was not a formalised church in the beginning, so that leads to a normal conclusion that the Authority would extend to all elders of all christians, be they Priests or Pastors, or just when 2 are gathered together. Im not poking holes here, but I do not think only one specific church was given authority. I believe God gave His Authority through His Son then to the Apostles to the world . I do not know why the RC church thinks that the first gatherings ever were catholics as such. My understanding is that it wasnt much before Constantines time that the official church came around. Lastly I fully believe in Confession and the need I have to confess my sin, that is being obediant to the Lords teachings. Regards, to seek
 
you assume that what’s underlined, is true?

If you did even a tiny bit of research you’d know that what you said is false.

Scripture and Tradition doesn’t teach it.

Ever hear the statement "ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ?


  1. *]Re: mortal sin. (yes scripture distinguishes mortal from non mortal sin) Why does scripture say that sins that aren’t mortal can be prayed about and God forgives them. But NOT the mortal kind? Why NOT? What then are you supposed to do with mortal sins if you can’t rid yourself of them with prayer like non mortal sins.? [1 Jn 5:16… ]
    *]Scripture says, Missing mass on Sunday (on the Day) as is the habit of some is already considered a deadly sin in the 1st century. The one who continues to miss mass on purpose after being warned NOT to, no longer has the sacrifice for sin benefiting them, but instead has judgement waiting for them and a furious fire that consumes the enemies of God. [Heb 10:19-26 ] WHY?

    It’s not reading, but putting into action what scripture teaches.

    From the beginning when Christians met on Sunday, they celebrated the Eucharist. [Heb 10:19-26] THAT is the sacrifice for sin talked about here, and that they celebrated AND consumed. If one failed to meet as was the habit of some, they would blow off the Eucharist, they blow off the sacrifice for sin. Otherwise how could they be guilty of such a sin by just failing to meet together? Those who failed to meet were Blowing off the Eucharist, and as scripture says, this was a deadly sin. So deadly that all that remained for THEM who did this, was a raging fire that consumes the enemies of God. THAT’S a serious sin!!!

    Just like receiving the Eucharist in an unworthy manner [1 Cor 11:27]

    Man can’t start a Church. Only God can. Therefore, Protestant communities aren’t churches. They are ALL man made organizations seeking God on their terms. God already established His Church in person, on HIS terms. The Catholic Church.

  1. In response to your reply from ts. 1. You show me evidence that says there was any formalised RC Church in the first few centuries after Jesus and the Apostles died. Certainly there were many converted by His Words, Life, and Death and the teachings of the Apostles as they travelled preaching and teaching at that time. I do not believe any formalised church existed then.Point 2. Who said I was ignorant of Scripture? Maybe of traditions yes, but not Scripture.Point 3 The last Supper was the time that Jesus met with all His 12 desciples, and shared a meal with them, bread and wine. It was a special meal because He was about to die. That cant be what you are referring to because Jesus was still alive and it was He that said Do this In Memory of Me. After that people broke bread together in memory, of Him, as He asked. When the RC Church formed centuries later, it was around that time, the formality of The Eucharist was introduced by Papal doctrines.AS far as I understand it. Correct me again if Im in major error.Point 4. NOWHERE does Scripture say that missing coming together to worship God is a deadly mortal Sin. It is encouraged to attend regularly and as often as one IS ABLE to which is the way Im sure The Lord would have it. No one is "blowing off"as you so nicely put it, when for whatever reason, they cannot go to a service or Mass. Thats like saying if I dont keep a medical appointment for some reason, I will die, or something else stupid. Do you really believe God set that rule out? If so, you need to read Scriptures yourself my friend.Point 5. God uses Man to build fellowship amongst His followers including the RC Church. Yes Protestant Churches also. You cannot declare that all those wonderful christians outside of the RC Church, are not Christians because they worship in a different way than Catholics do. Think about it. You are very genuine in your thinking Im sure, but I encourage you to think through what you want to say because you sound as if you are making personal attacks rather than what you think. Yes, and thank you for taking time to write me, I mite not agree with some things, but that doesnt mean I dont value honest thought. Regards, To Seek:)
 
Hi, with regards to your first point, I do not disagree at all, that is scripture.St James and St John spoke to “the elders of the church” agreed. Does that mean they meant only priests? My point is that and perhaps my understanding is muddled, the elders could have been any that the apostles taught and sent into the world with their, and of course, Gods Authority.
Of course they were ones trained by the Apostles and sent into the world, after they had the “laying on of hands”, which, whether they be called in scripture, “elders”, “presbyters” or priests amount to the same thing. They are people set apart from the general layman endowed by God, through the Apostolic succession and annointing with the grace and authority to forgive sins.
We all have this power to the extent that we are to forgive others (our neighbor) for any wrongs against us personally, but where sins are against God we need forgiveness through the sacrament that God has provided.
I believe that there was not a formalised church in the beginning, so that leads to a normal conclusion that the Authority would extend to all elders of all christians, be they Priests or Pastors, or just when 2 are gathered together. Im not poking holes here, but I do not think only one specific church was given authority. I believe God gave His Authority through His Son then to the Apostles to the world . I do not know why the RC church thinks that the first gatherings ever were catholics as such. My understanding is that it wasnt much before Constantines time that the official church came around. Lastly I fully believe in Confession and the need I have to confess my sin, that is being obediant to the Lords teachings. Regards, to seek
I agree that there was no “formalized Church” in the sense that would think of it today. I do not agree that it is a “normal conclusion” that the, “Authority would extend to all elders of all christians, be they Priests or Pastors, or just when 2 are gathered together”. To those thoroughly trained and tested, the “Elders” or “priests” or whatever term was used at the time, but not to all Christians.
And the reason is simple. We have great trouble in forgiving each other. Even in personal sin against our neighbor, we might have trouble forgiving them - even if they ask for it.
No the Forgiving of sins in the sacramental sense needs to be handled by someone properly trained, properly anointed and not just by “two gathered together”.

Likewise I think that you will find a well organized church well before Constantine, though less on the lines of the formal “Roman Catholic” model. Probably more along the lines of the EO model, but including Rome as the “first among equals”.
The more formal construct that we know today could not come about until Christianity was legalized which as you point out was around the time of Constantine.

Peace
James
 
In response to your reply from ts. 1. You show me evidence that says there was any formalised RC Church in the first few centuries after Jesus and the Apostles died.
I’ll be happy to.

During apostolic times,

You DO know that the book of Romans was written to the Church of Rome…correct? That book was written around year 58. At that time, Paul writes,

" 7* To all God’s beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 8* First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world…[Rm 1]

Paul concludes his letter " 17* I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create divisions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, * and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded. 19* For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; 20* then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. " [Rm 16]

Do you know who Clement of Rome is? He was bishop of Rome, the 3rd successor to St Peter. In the year 80 Clement settles sedition in Corinth among THEIR bishops. St John is still alive living in either Ephesus or Patmos. He hasn’t written the book of Revelation yet at the time of Clement’s letter to the Corinthians… Here is his letter newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

Do you know who Ignatius, bishop of Antioch is? Ignatius was a disciple of St John. In approx year 107, he writes 6 letters to the Church in 6 locations. He only writes in his letter to the Church of Rome, that the Church of Rome holds the presdidency. Ignatius is also writing that the Church is called the Catholic Church. You can read his letters online.

After the apostles have died.

Ever hear if bishop Irenaeus? He was originally from Smyrna. He writes in his work “Against Heresies” Book 3 Ch 3 ~ year 170 you can read his letters online. Here’s an exerpt

"2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority that is, the faithful everywhere, in as much as the apostolic tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere. 3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes

I’ll stop here due to space.
ts:
Point 2. Who said I was ignorant of Scripture? Maybe of traditions yes, but not Scripture
what you said in that post contradicted what scripture taught.
ts:
.Point 3 The last Supper was the time that Jesus met with all His 12 desciples, and shared a meal with them, bread and wine. It was a special meal because He was about to die. That cant be what you are referring to because Jesus was still alive and it was He that said Do this In Memory of Me. After that people broke bread together in memory, of Him, as He asked. When the RC Church formed centuries later, it was around that time, the formality of The Eucharist was introduced by Papal doctrines.AS far as I understand it. Correct me again if Im in major error
Your error is truly profound
ts:
.Point 4. NOWHERE does Scripture say that missing coming together to worship God is a deadly mortal Sin.
I quoted scripture not my opinion to prove you wrong.
ts:
It is encouraged to attend regularly and as often as one IS ABLE to which isIm sure The Lord would have it the way . No one is "blowing off"as you so nicely put it, when for whatever reason, they cannot go to a service or Mass. Thats like saying if I dont keep a medical appointment for some reason, I will die, or something else stupid.
that is a total corruption of the scriptures I quoted
ts:
Do you really believe God set that rule out? If so, you need to read Scriptures yourself my friend.
Why do you ask that question? I used scripture. Scripture set the rule. You’ve seen the scripture that supports the point I made. You’re not ignorant of it anymore. Therefore, you KNOW it is God who set the rule.
ts:
Point 5. You cannot declare that all those wonderful christians outside of the RC Church, are not Christians because they worship in a different way than Catholics do.
I didn’t say they weren’t Christian. I said they weren’t churches. And I said they don’t have the Eucharist.
 
In response to your reply from ts. 1. You show me evidence that says there was any formalised RC Church in the first few centuries after Jesus and the Apostles died. Certainly there were many converted by His Words, Life, and Death and the teachings of the Apostles as they travelled preaching and teaching at that time. I do not believe any formalised church existed then.Point 2. Who said I was ignorant of Scripture? Maybe of traditions yes, but not Scripture.Point 3 The last Supper was the time that Jesus met with all His 12 desciples, and shared a meal with them, bread and wine. It was a special meal because He was about to die. That cant be what you are referring to because Jesus was still alive and it was He that said Do this In Memory of Me. After that people broke bread together in memory, of Him, as He asked. When the RC Church formed centuries later, it was around that time, the formality of The Eucharist was introduced by Papal doctrines.AS far as I understand it. Correct me again if Im in major error.Point 4. NOWHERE does Scripture say that missing coming together to worship God is a deadly mortal Sin. It is encouraged to attend regularly and as often as one IS ABLE to which is the way Im sure The Lord would have it. No one is "blowing off"as you so nicely put it, when for whatever reason, they cannot go to a service or Mass. Thats like saying if I dont keep a medical appointment for some reason, I will die, or something else stupid. Do you really believe God set that rule out? If so, you need to read Scriptures yourself my friend.Point 5. God uses Man to build fellowship amongst His followers including the RC Church. Yes Protestant Churches also. You cannot declare that all those wonderful christians outside of the RC Church, are not Christians because they worship in a different way than Catholics do. Think about it. You are very genuine in your thinking Im sure, but I encourage you to think through what you want to say because you sound as if you are making personal attacks rather than what you think. Yes, and thank you for taking time to write me, I mite not agree with some things, but that doesnt mean I dont value honest thought. Regards, To Seek:)
Sounds a bit like subjectivism. Surly, you can support this with scripture? How so does scripture support your position on Point 1 through Point 5? How do you know you got it right?

JoeT

P.S. what is a ‘datholic’?
 
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