Why?

[Montalban]

Do - You - believe - , - God - use - to - ride - cherub - as - it - said - below - ?

2 Samuel 22:11 "And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind.
Look at the beginning of that passage, it is a song. I don’t believe God literally did so, because it is a song of David praising God.

Hope the question is clear now.

So many people have responded to you already.

 

[Khalfan]

Did you watch that video? So far 9 minutes into it there is nothing. Is your point the people who objected to the debate? NO.

What do you have a problem with about the verse? Did you read the whole verse to get the context? What does it mean to you? No. I just need the meaning of it. You can quote it with or without context.

Ok, the Muslim speaker is now on the video…

Jesus is not God.
He studied the 4 Gospels.
People are unaware of the history.
Each written on seperate scrolls and many would not have read all 4 at the same time.
Each scroll written in different locations, at different times.

Who was the prophet Jesus?

Modern scholars are trying to decide which was written first…last.
Three Gospels are very similar. Became possible to print in paralell collumns.

Compare line by line. Incident by incident.
Over time the Story of Jesus takes on new dimensions.

Mark was the earliest.
Mat & Luke derived from Mark- modern scholars tell us.

The “Q” Gospel.

Mark has few sayings of Jesus, Mat & Luke has many - must have come from Q.

Compare Mat to Mark.

Matthew changes the material to make Jesus more important than what Mark discribed. Calls God Father, and refers to Jesus as Son, having people pray to Jesus…Mat calls Jesus Lord. Reduces the One God. Covers human limitations of Jesus. If can be proven, the Gospel image is not the historic Jesus.

Mark refers to Jesus as Rabbi Chap 9 v5
Mat is called Lord by Peter C 17 v 4 (Transfiguaration)

What was really said? Rabbi (teacher) or Lord (God)?

To describe Himself as Lord.
Mark- Jesus c 13 v 35 "Master of the house.
Mat- C 14 v 42 Lord

Mat copied but decided to change things here and there for his own purposes.

Mark- You are the Messiah C 8 V 29
Mat- obviously added “Son of the Living God.” C 16 V 16 Many scholars admit it was not originally said.

Calling God Father
Mark- C 3 v 31 Refers to God
Mat- C 12 v 46 Refers to God as Father
not realizing how Jesus really represented God.

Jesus was worshiped (if he was really a Muslim prophet of God he would not accept to be worshoiped) He was not worshiped in Mark.

Mark- C 4 v 38 Teacher A rebuke.
Mat- C 8 v 25 Lord save us. (A petition to God)

Reducing Jesus emphisis of the one god. Muslims believe, but Christians reduced it.

Mark C 12 v 29
Mat- C 22 v 37-38 (cut short to take out)

(30 minutes into it a lighting problem- no Christian response- they boycotted)

Continued.

 

[Khalfan]

Continued.

Matthew changed the question. Good teacher question- did not give verse)
Mark-C (Reply makes sense) 10:17-18
Mat-C (Reply does not make sense) 19:16-17

Covers human Limitations of Jesus- Neither Muslims or Christians should deny Jesus was a human being.
How can you reconcile he is both man and god?

Mark C 11 v 14 He was hungry saw a fig tree.
Mat- C 21 v 18-19 Mat- Jesus cursed the tree just becasue it was out of season.

Look at how the material has changed over time.

As a Muslim the speaker is not intending to defame Jesus or Christians, but wants everyone to know and really embrace Jesus. Who has the REAL Jesus???

It is a composition trick of publishing to confuse readers to disguise the obvious differences between the stories.

John is a very differnt Gospel and changes the story even more, and as time goes on, Jesus gets more important, since John was last to be written. Like a snowball getting bigger.

Mark teaches about the “Kindom of God” mentioning it 18 times but in John only 5 times.

Christians are taught a prayer even today; “Thy Kingdom Come”. John should have more becasue it is longer. Most characteristic teaching of Mark, but not John.

In Mark, Jesus only spoke about himslef 9 times, but in John he spoke about himslef 118 times.

John is a more developed, or more digressed Gospel. Not representative of the original Jesus.

God as Father.
Only once did Mark say God was THE Father, and 3 times as being Jesus’ own Father.
John said Godf was THE Father 73 times, and his own Father 100 times.

Don’t you see? Mark was closer to the truth about the human Jesus than the others.

Crucified around the yr 30.
A certian man called Paul converted 3 yrs later.
Paul wrote letter around the year 55.
All Gospels written after.
Mark- 75 AD
Matthew- 85
Luke/Acts- 90
John sometime after Luke and Acts

The stature of Jeus rising over time.

John and Pauls writting are too similar not to have influenced each other.

Jesus was made God in Council of Nicea in 325.

The Koran represnts the REAL Jesus in the year 610 AD.

You should believe the Koran becasue it is the real Jeuss as he left the world in 30 CE.

—48 minutes into it he finished speaking. End of my notes. Not sure I’ll watch the other 30.
I think most of these points has been discussed many times before, Kal.

Thank you very much. You have done a great job. You have made my life much easier.

It’s not about weather you have discussed it or not, it’s about the possibilities of a man becoming God over time. Since we can see it in your own scripture (other than the rejected scriptures), it does make sense.

 

[Khalfan]

nope…I do not speak Greek…

Thank you.

 

[Khalfan]

2 Samuel 22:11 "And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind.

Look at the beginning of that passage, it is a song. I don’t believe God literally did so, because it is a song of David praising God.

What does really mean by that then? Please not that, you are giving reason to ignore many verses as of metaphoric, including the verses people used called and prayed Jesus (pbuh) as God and Jesus (pbuh) refers himself as divine in GODness.

So many people have responded to you already.

Not many.

 

[Montalban]

Thank you very much. You have done a great job. You have made my life much easier.

It’s not about weather you have discussed it or not, it’s about the possibilities of a man becoming God over time. Since we can see it in your own scripture (other than the rejected scriptures), it does make sense.

We *become *God over time

 

[inJESUS]

Khalfan, don’t stoop into that level of “can God utter this word” or “can God do that” arguments since they really do not give credit to most Muslims who use these arguments as they show you are literalist people who can’t look beyong letters.

He bowed the heavens and came down; thick darkness was under his feet. He rode on a cherub and flew; he came swiftly on the wings of the wind. **He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him, thick clouds dark with water. Out of the brightness before him hailstones and coals of fire broke through his clouds." **Psalm 18:9-12

Does any of this seem realistic to you or is it like poetry to show God’s power? why nit-pick one phrase when all the passage is alike?

“He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters;** he makes the clouds his chariot; he rides on the wings of the wind**;” Psalm 104:3

what? is this supposed to be taken literally as well?

“Behold, **the LORD is riding on a swift cloud **and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.” Isaiah 19:1

God riding on clouds? why dear Khalfan, didn’t the psalmist know that clouds have no wings? please .

 

[Verisimilitude]

No. I just need the meaning of it. You can quote it with or without context.

The meaning is derived from the conext, not without it. I’m still not sure what you are seeking about it.

Ok, the Muslim speaker is now on the video…

Jesus is not God.
He studied the 4 Gospels.
People are unaware of the history.
Each written on seperate scrolls and many would not have read all 4 at the same time.
Each scroll written in different locations, at different times.

I think most people are aware of the history of the Bible, and the speaker brings up points that are non-issues. The Quran was revealed over time and in different situations- codified well after Mohmed.

Who was the prophet Jesus?

Modern scholars are trying to decide which was written first…last.
Three Gospels are very similar. Became possible to print in paralell collumns.

It is why they are called the Synoptic Gospels which means “at one glance”.

Compare line by line. Incident by incident.
Over time the Story of Jesus takes on new dimensions.

You should do that yourself and not rely on others to do it for you. Do you have a Bible? The Quran cannot stand up to such scrutiny.

Mark was the earliest.
Mat & Luke derived from Mark- modern scholars tell us.

The “Q” Gospel.

Mark has few sayings of Jesus, Mat & Luke has many - must have come from Q.

Q is disputed and if I had my NJB they gave a pretty good explaination about it which differs from the earlier JB explaination. I think where you see inconsitancies, the scholarly explainations do make sense. This might be another topic in itself.

Compare Mat to Mark.

Matthew changes the material to make Jesus more important than what Mark discribed. Calls God Father, and refers to Jesus as Son, having people pray to Jesus…Mat calls Jesus Lord. Reduces the One God. Covers human limitations of Jesus. If can be proven, the Gospel image is not the historic Jesus.

Mark refers to Jesus as Rabbi Chap 9 v5
Mat is called Lord by Peter C 17 v 4 (Transfiguaration)

What was really said? Rabbi (teacher) or Lord (God)?

To describe Himself as Lord.
Mark- Jesus c 13 v 35 "Master of the house.
Mat- C 14 v 42 Lord

Mat copied but decided to change things here and there for his own purposes.

I think you, like the speaker in the video underestimate people- here the Gospel writers- only when it suits you.

Mark- You are the Messiah C 8 V 29
Mat- obviously added “Son of the Living God.” C 16 V 16 Many scholars admit it was not originally said.

What scholars- Islamic- Jesus Seminar ‘experts’?

Calling God Father
Mark- C 3 v 31 Refers to God
Mat- C 12 v 46 Refers to God as Father
not realizing how Jesus really represented God.

Jesus was worshiped (if he was really a Muslim prophet of God he would not accept to be worshoiped) He was not worshiped in Mark.

Mark- C 4 v 38 Teacher A rebuke.
Mat- C 8 v 25 Lord save us. (A petition to God)

Reducing Jesus emphisis of the one god. Muslims believe, but Christians reduced it.

Mark C 12 v 29
Mat- C 22 v 37-38 (cut short to take out)

(30 minutes into it a lighting problem- no Christian response- they boycotted)

This is where Islam becomes most disingenuious. Cherry-picking one over the other to make an obscure and irrelevent point(s). To reach into a text that is rejected in it’s entirety by you (Islam), and select what you can agree with and explain it away as “we believe Jesus revealed a Gospel- just not as noted in the NT”. I can and do reject everything in the Koran- even the similarities because they add nothing to the NT. Everything the speaker says is weighed agaisnt the Quran to be valid or not. That is a false test.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Thank you very much. You have done a great job. You have made my life much easier.

You should not take that speaker on such face value. Have you ever read a book on the history of the Catholic Church yourself? I don’t know many videos that reute these points, but if I found one wouyld you watch it as I have watched yours? Are you able to buy books if I gave you some titles, or even receive them as a gift if I sent them to you? Would/could you read them?

It’s not about weather you have discussed it or not, it’s about the possibilities of a man becoming God over time. Since we can see it in your own scripture (other than the rejected scriptures), it does make sense.

It only makes sense if you know where you will end up, as Muslims do. You already have made your conclusion even before you start. That is not honest or scholarly.

Have you ever allowed the possibility in your mind that the Quran is or might be wrong, not from God or Gabriel?

 

[Khalfan]

You should not take that speaker on such face value. Have you ever read a book on the history of the Catholic Church yourself? I don’t know many videos that reute these points, but if I found one wouyld you watch it as I have watched yours? Are you able to buy books if I gave you some titles, or even receive them as a gift if I sent them to you? Would/could you read them?

Let’s make it easy for both. Why don’t you just point out where you don’t agree with him and the reason for that? Hope that will help both of us.

It only makes sense if you know where you will end up, as Muslims do. You already have made your conclusion even before you start. That is not honest or scholarly.

Have you ever allowed the possibility in your mind that the Quran is or might be wrong, not from God or Gabriel?

Ofcourse yes my dear. Quran itself doesn’t demand to believe in it for no reason, but to study the signs mentioned in it and to believe in its truth through those signs. In a single chapter, God asking the reason to deny the signs of God, no less than 31 times. In more than 800 verses, Quran talkes about scientifically established facts. But it is not a science book. Then it talkes about moral values, rewards for the believers and warnings for non-believers. Then there are certain verses like Stars are to throw at Jinns, Quran is ercorded and kept in heaven etc. which cannot either be proved or disproved atleast for now with the technology we have today. The chance is 50/50 for its truth or falseness. When a book or a person said something and 90% of it proved true and rest 10% is in 50/50 chance of true or false, why don’t we believe in its 50% chance of being true?

It wasn’t some kind of conclusive explanations from the speaker. If you have watched few from many of his debates with very well known Christian apologetics, around the world, you wouldn’t say he is not a scholar of Chritanity. Some of them are below. There are many other scholars too doing the same study like late Ahmed Deedat, Dr. Zakir Naik (Both of them were invited Pope (Deedat with last Pope and Zakir with present Pope) for dialogue on any of the Christian Muslim issue. Deedat was welcomed by Pope but in closed room. Deedat demanded to make it in Public with live telecast which was rejected by office of Pope. Zakir’s challenge still exists.).

Deedat vs sjoberg

Deedat vs Sorosh

Deedat vs Sorosh

deedat vs swaggart

Shabir Ally debate colection

deedat debate collection

Zakir Naik debate Collection

I don’t need comments on it, but watch when you feel.

 

[Khalfan]

The meaning is derived from the conext, not without it. I’m still not sure what you are seeking about it.

Why don’t you just quote 1 john 5:7 from any of the version instead of running round and round of the question?

You should do that yourself and not rely on others to do it for you. Do you have a Bible? The Quran cannot stand up to such scrutiny.

I do have Bible and I do that very well with extra care. Since we don’t have morethan one Quran, we cannot compare it with some other Quran.

I think you, like the speaker in the video underestimate people- here the Gospel writers- only when it suits you.

Is that what you understand from that verses? I like that.

What scholars- Islamic- Jesus Seminar ‘experts’?

Ask him directly.

This is where Islam becomes most disingenuious. Cherry-picking one over the other to make an obscure and irrelevent point(s). To reach into a text that is rejected in it’s entirety by you (Islam), and select what you can agree with and explain it away as “we believe Jesus revealed a Gospel- just not as noted in the NT”. I can and do reject everything in the Koran- even the similarities because they add nothing to the NT. Everything the speaker says is weighed agaisnt the Quran to be valid or not. That is a false test.

Now please, don’t reject all Gospels becasue of its accuracy. If you yourself say it is not accurate, we have no option than confirming, Islam is the true religion given by God.

 

[Khalfan]

Khalfan, don’t stoop into that level of “can God utter this word” or “can God do that” arguments since they really do not give credit to most Muslims who use these arguments as they show you are literalist people who can’t look beyong letters.

He bowed the heavens and came down; thick darkness was under his feet. He rode on a cherub and flew; he came swiftly on the wings of the wind. **He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him, thick clouds dark with water. Out of the brightness before him hailstones and coals of fire broke through his clouds." **Psalm 18:9-12

Does any of this seem realistic to you or is it like poetry to show God’s power? why nit-pick one phrase when all the passage is alike?

“He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters;** he makes the clouds his chariot; he rides on the wings of the wind**;” Psalm 104:3

what? is this supposed to be taken literally as well?

“Behold, **the LORD is riding on a swift cloud **and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.” Isaiah 19:1

God riding on clouds? why dear Khalfan, didn’t the psalmist know that clouds have no wings? please .

I have no problem with poetry my dear. But remember the writer talking about GOD. You see, you can’t understand what all we can talk about God. What is blasphemy means to you? According to me, Saying something about God which he is not, is too a blasphemy. Read those verses once again. You will find, most of it is to be thrown out of Bible becuse of clear lies or human imaginations. We Muslims too believe in GOD. Have you ever seen any Muslim making a picture of GOD? You will not. Just for instance, How do you know, how Jesus (pbuh) looked like? From nowhere. But you make idols and pictures of him and worship infront of it even after you know it was not the true image or shape of Jesus (pbuh). It is the same about God too. While you say, no one have ever seen God, you make puictures of him, read songs about him and believe in it. Will you say, you don’t believe that God have ever rode cherubim and flew?

 

[Khalfan]

We become God over time

How many became God by now?

Imagine you became God. Will you still have your free will to choose good or bad?

 

[Montalban]

How many became God by now?

I don’t know

Imagine you became God. Will you still have your free will to choose good or bad?

I don’t know.

 

[Khalfan]

I don’t know

I don’t know.

You just believe in it.

 

[exoflare]

How many hairs are on your head?

I don’t know.

You just believe in it.

Muslim “logic” strikes again…

 

[exoflare]

btw, why do you guys even continue to talk to this brick wall?

 

[Khalfan]

How many hairs are on your head?

I don’t know.

You just believe in it.

Muslim “logic” strikes again…

I know how many hairs are there in your whole body.

2456876679. You can check it.

 

[inJESUS]

I have no problem with poetry my dear. But remember the writer talking about GOD. You see, you can’t understand what all we can talk about God. What is blasphemy means to you?

what does this have to do with poetry and stylistics that pertain to a special language in a special time? you have no objections to God riding on clouds and wings but you have a problem with the expression riding on cherubim? didn’t it dawn to you that both are poetic expressions pertaining to that time in history that have a specific meaning and are not literary descriptions? or do you think that the writers thought that God has legs and feet in order for Him to “ride” whatever thing?please be rational. Poetic descriptions are to be read as such and not as literary descriptions and if you don’t like these expressions and you are in need to defend God, go back some thousands years in time and ask the Hebrew people to change their expressions because you are unable to understand them metaphorically.Otherwise, you’ll have to get used to the specific language of the OT inspead of using the same corruption mantra.

We Muslims too believe in GOD. Have you ever seen any Muslim making a picture of GOD? You will not.

 

[Khalfan]

what does this have to do with poetry and stylistics that pertain to a special language in a special time? you have no objections to God riding on clouds and wings but you have a problem with the expression riding on cherubim? didn’t it dawn to you that both are poetic expressions pertaining to that time in history that have a specific meaning and are not literary descriptions? or do you think that the writers thought that God has legs and feet in order for Him to “ride” whatever thing?please be rational. Poetic descriptions are to be read as such and not as literary descriptions and if you don’t like these expressions and you are in need to defend God, go back some thousands years in time and ask the Hebrew people to change their expressions because you are unable to understand them metaphorically.Otherwise, you’ll have to get used to the specific language of the OT inspead of using the same corruption mantra.