Wife Has Given Up - Part 2

[styrgwillidar]

I would be tempted to just pay it for her and keep the peace for the sake of the kids. Have an agreement drawn out that this is extra money that was not in the settlement.

Just my opinion. I’ve never been divorced, so I am speaking strictly from the perspective of opinion.

I’m kinda thinking that the kids will suffer more so if she’s angry and broke.

The kids are going to suffer regardless because she will always be angry, she will always be broke. That’s just her. She can’t manage money, she can’t stick to a budget or she would have figured out how to balance paying the lawyer, not running up atty fees by dragging things out, buying out the house etc. Paying this time just delays the inevitable, because she will keep asking and pushing for more. She will continue to put herself in financial holes and find reasons that he should pay for it. Once he gives in he sets the precedent that he has a breaking point, that he will give in. It will make it harder and harder to ever stop the cycle the longer it goes on. Better to establish that she must live in her budget. Her anger is going to be there regardless.

The kids need to be kept out of the middle. However, that’s not something TucDoc can completely control. All he can do is point out to her what is in the legal agreement regarding what can be shared with the kids etc. Most divorce agreements include language about not sending messages through kids etc. He must insist she abides by it for the good of the kids. If she has a problem he needs to point out to her politely that this is what she chose, not him. He wanted to stay married, he wanted to work on the marriage, he did not want to give up. This is her choice.

Then point out to her that you will seek legal redress if she violates the divorce agreement. That includes bringing action for alienation of affection etc. If she thinks she has legal bills now, just wait.

My response to her truly would be: I’m sorry, this is what you chose. You must live with it.

ETA: The kids shouldn’t even know this is going on, it is truly none of their business and I suspect specifically prohibited under the divorce agreement from knowing about. I don’t think setting the example of enabling this kind of destructive behavior— uncontrolled spending and extortion via your fear of your kids reaction-- is something you should set the example of caving in to.

I think the simple fact that choices have consequences, and that their mother is having to deal with the consequences of her choices, including the agreement she made, is a good life lesson. Again, why would one expect a person who couldn’t live up to their marriage agreement to honor their divorce agreement any better?

She has discarded you as a husband, but then turns around insisting you continue as a husband paying her bills for her overcommitments. It’s not your problem, it’s hers.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The kids are going to suffer regardless because she will always be angry, she will always be broke. That’s just her. She can’t manage money, she can’t stick to a budget or she would have figured out how to balance paying the lawyer, not running up atty fees by dragging things out, buying out the house etc. Paying this time just delays the inevitable, because she will keep asking and pushing for more. She will continue to put herself in financial holes and find reasons that he should pay for it. Once he gives in he sets the precedent that he has a breaking point, that he will give in. It will make it harder and harder to ever stop the cycle the longer it goes on. Better to establish that she must live in her budget. Her anger is going to be there regardless.

The kids need to be kept out of the middle. However, that’s not something TucDoc can completely control. All he can do is point out to her what is in the legal agreement regarding what can be shared with the kids etc. Most divorce agreements include language about not sending messages through kids etc. He must insist she abides by it for the good of the kids. If she has a problem he needs to point out to her politely that this is what she chose, not him. He wanted to stay married, he wanted to work on the marriage, he did not want to give up. This is her choice.

Then point out to her that you will seek legal redress if she violates the divorce agreement. That includes bringing action for alienation of affection etc. If she thinks she has legal bills now, just wait.

My response to her truly would be: I’m sorry, this is what you chose. You must live with it.

ETA: The kids shouldn’t even know this is going on, it is truly none of their business and I suspect specifically prohibited under the divorce agreement from knowing about. I don’t think setting the example of enabling this kind of destructive behavior— uncontrolled spending and extortion via your fear of your kids reaction-- is something you should set the example of caving in to.

I think the simple fact that choices have consequences, and that their mother is having to deal with the consequences of her choices, including the agreement she made, is a good life lesson. Again, why would one expect a person who couldn’t live up to their marriage agreement to honor their divorce agreement any better?

She has discarded you as a husband, but then turns around insisting you continue as a husband paying her bills for her overcommitments. It’s not your problem, it’s hers.

I completely agree with all of this.

 

[rainbow1]

Being none of us know your financial settlement,I don’t think we can tell you what we would think is fair. I think the best thing is for you to pray and think about whether the settlement was financially a fair thing, keeping all feelings put aside as to the fact that she chose to leave. If not, then I would recommend that you try to make it fair, regardless about the legal settlement. Women most of the time do not end up with the fair end of the deal.
As far as her nastyness, I feel sad for you. I received so many nasty letters from my ex and decided the only way to respond to him was to say each time that I got one that I don’t know how to respond to his email but that I am praying for him every day. It let him know I would not engage in arguments and would also not accept his nastiness and definately would not respond in a nasty way. It slowed him down a bit. And then I really did go through with praying for him. Your ex needs some extra prayers right now…
Making any additional threats of further lawsuits or alienation threats probably would not be in any one’s best interest including the children. The best thing seems to be to distance some from the divorce, try to work hard on your relationship with the kids, and start to shift your focus from you ex to your new life. You are young and have a whole life ahead of you. Yes your ex made some mistakes, but don’t waste your own life over her decisions. Try to remember the things that you used to do before the divorce that would make you happy and start redoing those, and also finding new things. And make sure for quiet times of prayer, in adoration especially…because the Lord is ready to heal you…

 

[Serap]

I completely agree with all of this.

I agree with it too, but I am also thinking about the kids.

 

[Serap]

I got a very nasty e-mail from my ex yesterday. She owes her attorney $11K and she insists it should come out of “community funds”. She used her share to buy me out of the house. She says she hates me and would move with the kids out of state if she could. She says she can never love me again and never wants me in “her” house.

Had she taken the offer 6 months ago she wouldn’t have incurred these fees. I’ve refused to pay for her attorney. I’m afraid that if I give in now, she will continue to ask for more money over and above what we’ve agreed. But, I now continuing the conflict is bad for the kids, and that she will likely continue to turn the kids against me. I am torn about what to do.

What if you speak to your lawyer about this and ask for his/her professional opinion? Forward the email to your lawyer also.

 

[EasterJoy]

She needs to stop bad-mouthing you to the kids. It’s very harmful. I hope your therapist can help you deal with this situation.

But to clarify: The therapist can only help Tucdoc decide how to deal with the way his wife decides to behave, for the good of everyone involved, because obviousy no one can make his wife behave in any certain way, excepting the wife.

 

[EasterJoy]

I got a very nasty e-mail from my ex yesterday. She owes her attorney $11K and she insists it should come out of “community funds”. She used her share to buy me out of the house. She says she hates me and would move with the kids out of state if she could. She says she can never love me again and never wants me in “her” house.

Had she taken the offer 6 months ago she wouldn’t have incurred these fees. I’ve refused to pay for her attorney. I’m afraid that if I give in now, she will continue to ask for more money over and above what we’ve agreed. But, I now continuing the conflict is bad for the kids, and that she will likely continue to turn the kids against me. I am torn about what to do.

I’m very sorry for you that she’s resorted to those hurtful words again, but those are a well she has gone to a few too many times, right? She’s saying it in the hopes of getting money from you. Don’t give in or refuse based on the emotions she tries to stir up in you. Let that money pit remain dry. When the behavior continually fails to return money, it may be somewhat extinguished. Rather, pass over the emotional ploys, go straight to the facts of the situation, and give in or refuse based on what justice demands. Even if injustice could get her back, it would be the wrong way to achieve it.

Forward the e-mail to your attorney and proceed according to his or her advice. It will be money well-spent. Whether she could have handled her finances better or not is a moot point, after all. By her decision to divorce you, she has made it clear that her financial issues are not your business any more.

Your only concerns are
a) promptly accomodating what justice requires of you, and the kind of justice written into the books of the State of Arizona is the justice she’s opted for. I’d stay on that playing field.
b) never rewarding abusive behavior with discretionary funds over what justice requires of you…not from your wife, not from your kids, not from anyone. I’d restrict voluntary outlays to requests on behalf of your children that come directly from your children or requests that come to you from her within an attitude of friendship. If you reward abusive requests, you’ll just be asking for more of the same.

 

[rainbow1]

I’m very sorry for you that she’s resorted to those hurtful words again, but those are a well she has gone to a few too many times, right? She’s saying it in the hopes of getting money from you. Don’t give in or refuse based on the emotions she tries to stir up in you. Let that money pit remain dry. When the behavior continually fails to return money, it may be somewhat extinguished. Rather, pass over the emotional ploys, go straight to the facts of the situation, and give in or refuse based on what justice demands. Even if injustice could get her back, it would be the wrong way to achieve it.

Forward the e-mail to your attorney and proceed according to his or her advice. It will be money well-spent. Whether she could have handled her finances better or not is a moot point, after all. By her decision to divorce you, she has made it clear that her financial issues are not your business any more.

Your only concerns are
a) promptly accomodating what justice requires of you, and the kind of justice written into the books of the State of Arizona is the justice she’s opted for. I’d stay on that playing field.
b) never rewarding abusive behavior with discretionary funds over what justice requires of you…not from your wife, not from your kids, not from anyone. I’d restrict voluntary outlays to requests on behalf of your children that come directly from your children or requests that come to you from her within an attitude of friendship. If you reward abusive requests, you’ll just be asking for more of the same.

But the issue of whether she has been compensated fairly seems to have come up time and time again for this couple. I am thinking that he needs to ignore her behavior, and decide for himself, what is the amount that he feels is fair for her to have received at the time of the divorce. That amount is not dependent on whether she has tantrums or not. She is due her portion of the finances. The legal decision that a particular judge makes, is not necessarily fair, and for Tucdoc to be able to finally leave all of this behind him and not second guess himself, he will need to feel that he did the right thing despite what the court might have decided. In other words, if it truly is fair for his exwife to have more money, then it will never settle right in his mind if he doesn’t compensate her better. He needs closure. I am sure he is ready to get it done once and for all, so that he no longer feels the need to even listen to her when she starts complaining about money. After he settles the financial issue in his own mind, then he will be able to tell her simply that the conversation about money is closed. And maybe he will decide that the financial arrangements already provided are fair and just. But the decision needs to be made based on the actual amount of money that they had during the marriage, not based upon whether his wife has good behavior or not. It was her money also during the marriage. It is unfortunate this clarity didn’t happen before the divorce was finalized during mediation. The question is whether the exwife was compensated fairly and did she get her share fair? In most divorces around my part of the country, women are not given their fair share of marital assets, and what may be interpreted as bad behavior may actually be a woman being disgusted that she is treated poorly and demanding that she get her own money. I am not saying that happened with Tucdoc, I am just saying that there are plenty of disgruntled divorced women who do have reason for their disgruntled attitude. I am definately not supporting rude behavior, but we don’t know this couples financial situation, and perhaps more compensation is the appropriate thing. I think this ultimately will require prayer and soul-searching on Tucdoc’s part…it is ultimately his responsibility to make this decision, because he does have the financial strings from what it sounds like.

 

[tucdoc]

Well, she got the house and I got the cash (retirement funds and money from selling the practice). The house was valued at significantly less than what was paid almost 6 years ago, and the retirement fund was not discounted as pre-tax money. It seems to me that she (and apparently my son) only see that I have all of this money. I explained to my son that yes, I have money, so that I can buy my own house, furniture, appliances, etc. I did not tell him that I am paying for all of his Catholic school expenses (even those which she is suppose to pick up) and his therapy sessions (part of which she is also suppose to pay for).
So, I am paying for more than I agreed to, and what she is getting monthly is about 3x what it costs to stay in the house. There is no mortgage, so the costs are for utilities, upkeep, taxes, insurance and HOA (roughly the costs of a modest mortgage) . I feel this is fair

 

[Irishmom2]

Please do not be dragged into any discussion of money with your son. The bottom line is that it is none of his business. And most likely, his mom puts him up to it, if not directly, then by manipulating things toward him so that he thinks like she does. Tell him once and for all that you will not discuss your income, or your assets with him and he is not to bring it up again.

 

[tucdoc]

I am also paying child support according to Arizona guidelines, and paying for the kids health/dental insurance through work.

Irishmom2, I want my kids to learn financial responsibility, which I don’t feel they will learn from her. I don’t discuss actual dollar amounts, or even compare what mom get to what the kids’ teachers make (as advised by his therapist). But, they do need to know what it takes to become independent, because that is what I wish for them. I don’t want them to constantly ask me for money to live the way their mom is. Yes, I will help them when they are in trouble, but for the most part they have to be able to get by on their own.

I am reading a book on codependency. While I realize that I have to treat my kids differently than my ex, they also have to learn to eventually become self-reliant. I feel this is more likely to happen now after the divorce.

 

[rainbow1]

Well, she got the house and I got the cash (retirement funds and money from selling the practice). The house was valued at significantly less than what was paid almost 6 years ago, and the retirement fund was not discounted as pre-tax money. It seems to me that she (and apparently my son) only see that I have all of this money. I explained to my son that yes, I have money, so that I can buy my own house, furniture, appliances, etc. I did not tell him that I am paying for all of his Catholic school expenses (even those which she is suppose to pick up) and his therapy sessions (part of which she is also suppose to pay for).
So, I am paying for more than I agreed to, and what she is getting monthly is about 3x what it costs to stay in the house. There is no mortgage, so the costs are for utilities, upkeep, taxes, insurance and HOA (roughly the costs of a modest mortgage) . I feel this is fair

Sounds like you have put alot of thought into this whole money situation to make sure it is fair, so now it is time to try to distance from any conversation about money with her. My ex has been notorious for sending nasty emails, and right before major events like mother’s day, etc…it hurt so much…I really had to learn (and it took a very long time) to respond only by saying that I was praying for him, so that I would not get into an argument. I wanted a life of peace, and I know you want the same thing. It just takes time to heal from it all, and it is hard when the ex does have nasty hurtful outbursts. Just stay close to the Eucharist and around prayerful friends!

 

[qui_est_ce]

Well, she got the house and I got the cash (retirement funds and money from selling the practice). The house was valued at significantly less than what was paid almost 6 years ago, and the retirement fund was not discounted as pre-tax money. It seems to me that she (and apparently my son) only see that I have all of this money. I explained to my son that yes, I have money, so that I can buy my own house, furniture, appliances, etc. I did not tell him that I am paying for all of his Catholic school expenses (even those which she is suppose to pick up) and his therapy sessions (part of which she is also suppose to pay for).
So, I am paying for more than I agreed to, and what she is getting monthly is about 3x what it costs to stay in the house. There is no mortgage, so the costs are for utilities, upkeep, taxes, insurance and HOA (roughly the costs of a modest mortgage) . I feel this is fair

You are being extremely generous. Didn’t you also give her proceeds from the sale of your practice or something like that?

 

[oneofmany]

Why is it your duty to pay HER attorney fees? I can bet if you do she will just think of other concerns she has to get her attorney involved. Are you going to pay each time? This can turn into retaliation toward you and you will be stuck with her attorney bills forever. Don’t start to play that game.

Also, you do know she can’t just take the children away don’t you? My hubby’s ex tried that and it won’t work. There is case law out there to stop it. The kids cannot be uprooted just because one parent wants to leave.

My hubby told her he had no problem with her leaving but she wasn’t going to take the kids… She did not contest it since she knew it would go nowhere.

 

[styrgwillidar]

… I am paying for all of his Catholic school expenses (even those which she is suppose to pick up) and his therapy sessions (part of which she is also suppose to pay for).
So, I am paying for more than I agreed to…

Dude, you are laying down and making noises like a rug, you’ve set the precedent that you will allow her to walk on you. Of course she’s coming after you for more money because you’ve trained her that you’ll cave. You’ll keep being a husband.

She’s a grown woman, she signed a legal agreement with the advice and guidance of an attorney. She needs to grow up and abide by what she signed. Choices have consequences, stop sheltering her from hers.

I know you are rationalizing that it’s “for the kids” but she signed up for those responsibilities ‘for the kids’ as well. What, only you have to do things ‘for the kids’ and not her? You may want to remind her, via her attorney that she is failing to live up to her commitments to the kids.— not you— She is the one failing to be there ‘for the kids’ and having you continue to shoulder her burdens. Is she going to be spending money on baseball trips but not the things she agreed to ‘for the kids’? You’ve set a bad precedent.

At the very least, I would document every dime you are spending that is for costs she agreed to. Talk to your lawyer about how to document it properly, registered mail each time or something she has to sign and acknowledge. Take care of your kids, but take care of your own interests as well. Nobody else is going to. As I’ve advised you before, if she’s backing away from financial support, she may start establishing emotional distance from them. It will be helpful if you go back into court over custody in the future (she starts taking more and more of her anger out on the kids and THEY request a change), documenting everything will be critical.

I will pray that as the situation stabilizes she will be more reasonable and that your kids receive what they need to get through this.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I am also paying child support according to Arizona guidelines, and paying for the kids health/dental insurance through work.

Irishmom2, I want my kids to learn financial responsibility, which I don’t feel they will learn from her. I don’t discuss actual dollar amounts, or even compare what mom get to what the kids’ teachers make (as advised by his therapist). But, they do need to know what it takes to become independent, because that is what I wish for them. I don’t want them to constantly ask me for money to live the way their mom is. **Yes, I will help them when they are in trouble, but for the most part they have to be able to get by on their own.
**
I am reading a book on codependency. While I realize that I have to treat my kids differently than my ex, they also have to learn to eventually become self-reliant. I feel this is more likely to happen now after the divorce.

May I suggest that you do not do this, or they will always be in trouble.

 

[oneofmany]

I got a very nasty e-mail from my ex yesterday. She owes her attorney $11K and she insists it should come out of “community funds”. She used her share to buy me out of the house. She says she hates me and would move with the kids out of state if she could. She says she can never love me again and never wants me in “her” house.

Had she taken the offer 6 months ago she wouldn’t have incurred these fees. I’ve refused to pay for her attorney. I’m afraid that if I give in now, she will continue to ask for more money over and above what we’ve agreed. But, I now continuing the conflict is bad for the kids, and that she will likely continue to turn the kids against me. I am torn about what to do.

What’s this “community funds”? Isn’t the divorce decided and over with and all funds divided up? She got the house after she bought you out. If she can’t afford to stay in a huge house then she needs to sell it. That is what my neighbor lady after her divorce. If she doesn’t have a job how can she live in a huge house? I agree, continually arguing over money is bad for the kids. Maybe you could take the kids to live with you if she can’t live within her budget.

In my opinion the courts do side with the women when it comes to finances. You have to go out and find a new house, new furniture, etc, etc. Basically start over to set up a new household. You need your money to do that. Men need to live on less after a divorce so why do women think they can live like they did before?

 

[rainbow1]

What’s this “community funds”? Isn’t the divorce decided and over with and all funds divided up? She got the house after she bought you out. If she can’t afford to stay in a huge house then she needs to sell it. That is what my neighbor lady after her divorce. If she doesn’t have a job how can she live in a huge house? I agree, continually arguing over money is bad for the kids. Maybe you could take the kids to live with you if she can’t live within her budget.

In my opinion the courts do side with the women when it comes to finances. You have to go out and find a new house, new furniture, etc, etc. Basically start over to set up a new household. You need your money to do that. Men need to live on less after a divorce so why do women think they can live like they did before?

Actually I begged to be the one not to end up with the big house with all the old memories in it, and the court did not see that as an option. I ended up with old furniture, which could not be resold, and also paid something like $20,000 for the contents of the house, which I did not want. Men typically have the larger salary, and for a professional, the meager child support is very tiny comparatively…
I guess the bottom line is that divorce ends up being pretty miserable for most involved…especially at Christmas time…

 

[tucdoc]

Rainbow1, she was advised by her lawyer to sell the house, but she refused. She feels entitled to all of the furniture in the house, so she fought me over the piano. It is only because of my professional salary that I made her the generous offer last spring, when all of this should have ended but didn’t because she wanted more money. Yes, child support is less in Arizona than in California, which is why I’m paying most of the Catholic school expenses.

In reading the book of co-dependency, I find the mantra from Al-Anon helpful in dealing with my ex’s unhappiness: I didn’t cause it, I can’t control it, and I can’t cure it. I feel the marriage ended because I wasn’t the person she wanted me to be. If she didn’t want to work at making the marriage more of what she wanted, then she really wasn’t committed to the marriage. I move forward because I would want my children to do the same. If their marriages get to the point where their partners want out, I would not want them to stay out of desperation.

 

[rainbow1]

Love that mantra!!! I am going to start using that too. In fact, seems like there ought to be some divorce support materials that closely follow the Al-Anon ideology. I so know where you are coming from as far as hoping your children never stay in a marriage in a state of desperation. My wish is that my children never, ever experience this type of thing in a marriage. I am sure you agree!
I hope everyone on this thread made it through Christmas ok, especially the kids in our families…it can get tough, huh? …will be praying for folks…