Wife has given up

[mamaslo]

Then let me bring up the kids. We are having issues with my being able to take the kids to school on the Mondays they stay the weekend with me. She claims they prefer to spend Sunday nights at the house. We had a Parenting Plan submitted to the court stating they would stay with me those Mondays, and now she wants to change it. I asked if she would be willing to meet with the kids’ therapist to discussing parenting issues, and she refused. She is not interested in seeing anybody who would potentially disagree with her opinions. She is really not interested in marriage counseling, even after I said I was willing to discuss any issues she had with me and the marriage. She refuses to try, so what choice do I have but to move on.

What does your counselor say when you tell him/her you are so very overwhelmingly angry? What suggestions are made on how to handle that? Does counselling even help with this so you can let it go and be healthy? With all the advice about what you need to do and what she needs to do on here, it’s likely to be too many voices speaking.

Are you still visiting with your priest for pastoral advice and reconciliation? What is his advice?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Tuc, based on the way you state your conditions for counseling, I wouldn’t easily accept counseling with you either, nor would I easily meet with kids counselors to discuss things with you. In fact, I can see where she might be starting to feel that you try to berate the counselors with (male)logic in order to get them to agree with you so that you can have your way and force me (wife) to do what you want. So I can see her point completely. And yes, I’m a man.

If you want the divorce to go more easily, or if you want to have an opportunity to save the marriage, then you need to shut your yap and learn to listen. I’m not getting any real sense from your comments that you are listening to your wife.

You want this to go better? Then go back to her and say:

1. I’m sorry. I’m not listening. We don’t communicate well, and in general when we do I think it would help me to hear you better if we have a third party counselor involved.
2. With respect to the children staying with me on Sunday night and me taking them to school on Monday morning: we have an existing agreement. I like the way things are now. I am willing to listen to alternatives, but only with (name removed by moderator)ut from our children’s therapist and a third party to help us communicate.

Note that in the above you state the current situation (an objective fact) and how you feel. I’m not getting that from your comments. From your comments it comes across as you’re trying to leverage the situation to prove her wrong. In the above its a fact, a feeling, and “I’m willing to listen.” NOTHING MORE.

In general, Tuc, its getting more clear that you still have a lot of ongoing issues here. You need this shared therapy as much as she does, and I don’t think you’re telling her that - it certainly doesn’t sound like it. I bet that in your work you have to be confident and in charge - and that’s important to being good at what you do. But if you can’t listen for people’s feelings and incorporate it, well I’m sorry but you’ll still end up being a pompous ***. And if I put that in context a lot of your wife’s responses make a lot of sense.

You want this all to go better? Say this to her: “I would still like us to go to therapy together. I realize that I don’t listen well to people’s feelings, particularly yours. I’d;like to get better at that, and to better understand what went wrong with us. My hope would be that we can still fix it, that I can still take responsibility for my faults and do better. i realize that in some ways what I am saying may sound selfish, but I want us to work, and I can only work on MY faults and on MY weaknesses. I would hope that you could get something from therapy as well, either self-improvement, or hope, or at least closure and resolution. But I would be very pleased if you would consider working with me on this.”

AND THEN SHUT UP. Don’t tell her anything about herself or what she needs to work on. Tell her that she is important to you, working on this together is important to you and that is it. If she says “You have no right to ask that of me” its a good sign, and AGREE. You don’t. But you still want it and need her anyway, and so you are asking. DO NOT tell her what she should do or what she owes to the marriage, etc. Just tell her what you are asking and that it is a request.

Good luck. If she says she will go with you to any therapy say “Yes”. Say “Thank you” and shut up.

It sure seemed Tucdoc was on this road and now has circled back to where he was when this all started.

 

[faithfully]

Tuc… SNIP…
Good luck. If she says she will go with you to any therapy say “Yes”. Say “Thank you” and shut up.

This all seems like excellent advise!

I THOUGHT the kids were in counceling??? No? Have you asked their councelor about the Weekend issue? Do the kids REALLY want to do as she’s said?

Keep in mind, your children love you both. They don’t want to have to tell you they don’t like the current arrangement. But you should realize, at their age, the back and forth thing is a HUGE drag. Something I’ve witnessed. Kids get upset when their parents lack of “getting it together” means they now can’t have weekend time for KID FUN… with their friends, not a lonely parent… etc… DOES NOT MEAN THEY DON’T LOVE YOU… but they are kids… Their world is spun!

 

[faithfully]

Tuc,

I’m reposting the profound statement from my FB account this morning…

“If it’s important to you, you will find a way. If not, you will find an excuse!”

 

[EasterJoy]

Tuc,

I’m reposting the profound statement from my FB account this morning…

“If it’s important to you, you will find a way. If not, you will find an excuse!”

It is not profound (nor theologically correct) to assume that everything we set out to accomplish will be given us:

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we shall go into such and such a town, spend a year there doing business, and make a profit”-- you have no idea what your life will be like tomorrow. You are a puff of smoke that appears briefly and then disappears. Instead you should say, “If the Lord wills it, we shall live to do this or that.” But now you are boasting in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. James 4:13-16

How about, “Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.”

The advice in this thread has indeed gone full circle.

Let’s look at two quotes from a same post:
It’s been pretty dang clear to everyone that YOU ARE NOT a source of “authority” to her… Why would anything you say right now suddenly be authoritive…

and

RE her lack of financial responsiblity… Guess what? YOU KNEW THIS!!! Why did you expect her to change? Are you seriously whining because she hasn’t gotten any smarter??? What you should be doing (should have done YEARS ago) is figuring out how to keep her spending in check. If that means credit cards with certain limits because she can’t add… no check book because she thinks there’s still money because there’s checks then that’s what you do. This is not rocket science.

Now, if it is clear to everyone that he is NOT a source of authority with her, then how is it that he’s a whiner because he didn’t put his foot down and put spending limits on her YEARS ago? Hello? He’s been there. Furthermore, it is pointless to make guesses about what might have worked years ago. He and his wife are now separated. Today, it is not his business to put a limit on her spending. It is her business to learn to manage the amount the court awarded to her. Yet in one paragraph you say both that he is unrealistic to expect her to change and also that he can do something about the spending habits of an adult.

How about this one: You can’t teach a pig to sing. You’ll just frustrate yourself and annoy the pig.

If her attitude changes, even a bit, this is cause to re-consider. If he’s getting verse 58 of the same song, though, then there is no point in another dramatic engagement that will only make this drag out longer.

I think he’ll do better with psychological feedback from the therapists that charge money, spiritual guidance from the spiritual guides who have been to seminary, and legal advice from lawyers on his retainer.

 

[EasterJoy]

Tuc, based on the way you state your conditions for counseling, I wouldn’t easily accept counseling with you either, nor would I easily meet with kids counselors to discuss things with you. In fact, I can see where she might be starting to feel that you try to berate the counselors with (male)logic in order to get them to agree with you so that you can have your way and force me (wife) to do what you want. So I can see her point completely. And yes, I’m a man…

You want this all to go better? Say this to her: “I would still like us to go to therapy together. I realize that I don’t listen well to people’s feelings, particularly yours. I’d;like to get better at that, and to better understand what went wrong with us. My hope would be that we can still fix it, that I can still take responsibility for my faults and do better. i realize that in some ways what I am saying may sound selfish, but I want us to work, and I can only work on MY faults and on MY weaknesses. I would hope that you could get something from therapy as well, either self-improvement, or hope, or at least closure and resolution. But I would be very pleased if you would consider working with me on this.”

AND THEN SHUT UP. Don’t tell her anything about herself or what she needs to work on. Tell her that she is important to you, working on this together is important to you and that is it. If she says “You have no right to ask that of me” its a good sign, and AGREE. You don’t. But you still want it and need her anyway, and so you are asking. DO NOT tell her what she should do or what she owes to the marriage, etc. Just tell her what you are asking and that it is a request.

Good luck. If she says she will go with you to any therapy say “Yes”. Say “Thank you” and shut up.

You say you’re a man. Are you a therapist? Because there aren’t a lot of therapists that suggest that the way to marital progress is for the husband to agree to shut up, let his wife do all of the talking, and require nothing of her except what she feels inclined to give.

 

[kbachler]

You say you’re a man. Are you a therapist? Because there aren’t a lot of therapists that suggest that the way to marital progress is for the husband to agree to shut up, let his wife do all of the talking, and require nothing of her except what she feels inclined to give.

As a long term strategy, of course not. But there’s no point to a long term strategy if you can’t get the spouse into therapy. And I think that you will find a significant number of therapists that will advocate any number of short-term strategies - including biting ones tongue in the short-run, to open lines of communication in the long run.

I’ve been in therapy with my wife and have been coached to sit back for awhile on some issues while she works to get ready to discuss them. It’s not an uncommon idea.

Tucdoc is at a critical point. He can choose to act in ways that continue to create opportunities to heal this, or he can choose to act in ways that blame his wife and that “catch” her in issues. If he acts in a way where he is “right”, he may or may not be right if he left his marriage on the table, and he probably won’t be happy for awhile. If he acts in ways that promote communication and create a level playing field for discussion AND THEN addresses the issues, he has a much better chance of saving his marriage, which has been his stated goal.

Based on how he has treated his wife, his wife has every reason to expect that he will work to trap her and treat her badly. He needs to show her that he can do otherwise if he wants to save his marriage. And if that means that while they get some negotiating done on counseling, and at the beginning of counseling, that he needs to focus on listening and not on talking, then so be it.

 

[kbachler]

It is not profound (nor theologically correct) to assume that everything we set out to accomplish will be given us:

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we shall go into such and such a town, spend a year there doing business, and make a profit”-- you have no idea what your life will be like tomorrow. You are a puff of smoke that appears briefly and then disappears. Instead you should say, “If the Lord wills it, we shall live to do this or that.” But now you are boasting in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. James 4:13-16

How about, “Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.”

The advice in this thread has indeed gone full circle.

Let’s look at two quotes from a same post:
It’s been pretty dang clear to everyone that YOU ARE NOT a source of “authority” to her… Why would anything you say right now suddenly be authoritive…

and

RE her lack of financial responsiblity… Guess what? YOU KNEW THIS!!! Why did you expect her to change? Are you seriously whining because she hasn’t gotten any smarter??? What you should be doing (should have done YEARS ago) is figuring out how to keep her spending in check. If that means credit cards with certain limits because she can’t add… no check book because she thinks there’s still money because there’s checks then that’s what you do. This is not rocket science.

Now, if it is clear to everyone that he is NOT a source of authority with her, then how is it that he’s a whiner because he didn’t put his foot down and put spending limits on her YEARS ago? Hello? He’s been there. Furthermore, it is pointless to make guesses about what might have worked years ago. He and his wife are now separated. Today, it is not his business to put a limit on her spending. It is her business to learn to manage the amount the court awarded to her. Yet in one paragraph you say both that he is unrealistic to expect her to change and also that he can do something about the spending habits of an adult.

How about this one: You can’t teach a pig to sing. You’ll just frustrate yourself and annoy the pig.

If her attitude changes, even a bit, this is cause to re-consider. If he’s getting verse 58 of the same song, though, then there is no point in another dramatic engagement that will only make this drag out longer.

I think he’ll do better with psychological feedback from the therapists that charge money, spiritual guidance from the spiritual guides who have been to seminary, and legal advice from lawyers on his retainer.

Her attitude DID change. She has been having long conversations and was (is?) willing to go to counseling. Working all that through doesn’t happen overnight. The goal now is to build communication, not to solve problems. Punishing the wife doesn’t help to save the marriage.

When Jesus met the woman at the well, did He work to communicate with her? Or did he work to punish and condemn her? The former works to open a door for further work, the latter leaves her with little chance to reform and to help win even more folks to His cause.(folks she knows.)

What makes sense, here, Easterjoy, is very clear, if his goal is still to save his marriage. He’s never said it isn’t. He’s said OTHER PEOPLE think he would be crazy to invest more effort in it, but I sense that since he’s not just walking away, that he still struggles with this, still can’t accept a marriage failure, and perhaps still loves her.

In the process he will grow and learn to listen to people better. Why not take the chance?

 

[kbachler]

Tuc,

I’m reposting the profound statement from my FB account this morning…

“If it’s important to you, you will find a way. If not, you will find an excuse!”

Beautiful quote.

 

[EasterJoy]

As a long term strategy, of course not. But there’s no point to a long term strategy if you can’t get the spouse into therapy. And I think that you will find a significant number of therapists that will advocate any number of short-term strategies - including biting ones tongue in the short-run, to open lines of communication in the long run.

I’ve been in therapy with my wife and have been coached to sit back for awhile on some issues while she works to get ready to discuss them. It’s not an uncommon idea.

Tucdoc is at a critical point. He can choose to act in ways that continue to create opportunities to heal this, or he can choose to act in ways that blame his wife and that “catch” her in issues. If he acts in a way where he is “right”, he may or may not be right if he left his marriage on the table, and he probably won’t be happy for awhile. If he acts in ways that promote communication and create a level playing field for discussion AND THEN addresses the issues, he has a much better chance of saving his marriage, which has been his stated goal.

Based on how he has treated his wife, his wife has every reason to expect that he will work to trap her and treat her badly. He needs to show her that he can do otherwise if he wants to save his marriage. And if that means that while they get some negotiating done on counseling, and at the beginning of counseling, that he needs to focus on listening and not on talking, then so be it.

“Based on how he has treated his wife, his wife has every reason to expect that he will work to trap her and treat her badly.” Where did this expectation come from? Was this supposed to have happened before or after she took up with the other men? Perhaps I have missed a round of atrocious behavior on his part? She has said from the beginning that she felt used and not respected by the OP, and I’m not quarrelling with her report of her perspective, but has he ever admitted that it was his intention to either use her or deny her respect? Therefore, I could say, “based on her perceptions of his treatement of her, she has every reason”, et cetera, but I would not expect him to concede “based on how he has treated his wife…”. If he had no intention to mistreat her, but did things which were worse in her eyes than he intended, that is different than creating the expectation that “he will work to trap her.”

He has treated her in ways that she didn’t like, but that is not the same as bad treatment. He has been on the look-out for deceptions on her part, but that is not the same as entrapment. All of us who are parents know that the opposite can as easily be true; that is, that the spouse or parent who gives in to every unreasonable whim does their spouse or child wrong, even though the initial result is delight and approval. Furthermore, just because you have grown used to enabling or permissiveness does not mean that you are entitled to expect absolute license. Rather, it is a moral imperative that the enabler stop giving you so much rope that you can hang yourself three times over.

I’m all for advancing the idea that one must often accept a humbled position and remain silent in order to maintain peace. This is admirable advice and is part of the sacrificial love that marriage can require. It is neither humble nor wise, however, nor is it expedient in the long term, to actively consent to a characterization of the situation that is simply not true. In this case, in particular, that will come back to haunt him. So if he were to say, “I know that this action or that was hurtful”, fine. If he were to say, “I trapped you on purpose and I admit that”, that is another thing. You can only make that kind of a statement if it is true, and you shouldn’t be talked into it if your conscience doesn’t give full consent to its truth.

If his therapist or priest says the same, however, so be it, as long as he is being asked to be silent and bide his time, and not being asked to sign off on a lie as if it were the truth. There is no good outcome from going down that road. If extending the angst of this situation saves the marriage and a good marriage can bloom where a marriage destined to struggle had been planted, it will be well worth it. If he is being asked to try the same thing and expect a different result, though, then he is exhausting one of a limited number of emotional campaigns that he is going to have the strength to mount. Base one of those campaigns on lies about himself told in order to keep the peace, and he will have a lifetime to regret that folly.

 

[faithfully]

Hey Easter… no time to address everything… maybe later today.

I’m sorry, it does seem profound to me. I never said is was a sacred statement… But the fact is…

Tuc claimed that he wanted to save his marriage. That he wanted his wife to go to counceling. Others suggested that perhaps seperating and letting her see how wrong she is would open her eyes to an attempt. Perhaps he just left, shut the door, and decided not to look back.

However, he has found his way to counceling… I’d say if he truly wanted to try it, then he should. Otherwise, it sounds like he’s finding excuses NOT to do what he claimed he wanted…

Personally, I think if it’s a valid marriage… then God would show Tuc one way or another to save it. Tuc has to be open to any avenue to do so… Not the only comfortable, pot-hole-free avenue that he’d like… Maybe the marriage is not valid. And then really nothing to save… I don’t claim to know that…

 

[lily20]

Maybe she has given up-- and maybe she has to go through this process. I would just say, “ok” and let her do what she wants to do. I would try to focus on other things, but say, “when you are ready to go to counseling, I will be available.”

Sometimes, the heart and mind need time on their own.

The “guy” friends is weird and I’m so sorry for that. I’m sure they are trying to help her and maybe have their own motives. But it is her decision to go that route. I would just let it go, and if she comes back, great. Take your children to a movie. It’s summer. Do something like a camping trip. Take them to see relatives. Keep in prayer for your spouse to come back to you.

Also, take yourself to counseling. This is the most important thing.

In Christ,
~Lily

 

[EasterJoy]

Hey Easter… no time to address everything… maybe later today.

I’m sorry, it does seem profound to me. I never said is was a sacred statement… But the fact is…

Tuc claimed that he wanted to save his marriage. That he wanted his wife to go to counceling. Others suggested that perhaps seperating and letting her see how wrong she is would open her eyes to an attempt. Perhaps he just left, shut the door, and decided not to look back.

However, he has found his way to counceling… I’d say if he truly wanted to try it, then he should. Otherwise, it sounds like he’s finding excuses NOT to do what he claimed he wanted…

Personally, I think if it’s a valid marriage… then God would show Tuc one way or another to save it. Tuc has to be open to any avenue to do so… Not the only comfortable, pot-hole-free avenue that he’d like… Maybe the marriage is not valid. And then really nothing to save… I don’t claim to know that…

Well, it is a valid marriage until determined otherwise, but canon law allows Catholics a civil divorce when it is required for the parties to be at peace, see to the needs of the children, and to share their belongings justly.

I think he’s concerned that he’s being confronted with “counselling” and trying to decide if its really counselling for the sake of some real level of reconciliation that is wanted or if it is merely a pretext to re-open questions that they went through a lot of angst to come to an agreement on. If she even wants to be a better co-parent with him, let alone wants to reconcile so as to share a common marital life again, I’m sure he’d jump at it. Still, just as a country does right to be careful about jumping into any military quagmire in the name of “an opportunity for peacekeeping”, someone whose had several iterations of “counselling” does well to realistically consider what the best and worst expected outcomes are likely to be. That can answer the question right there.

If the OP can be believed whatsoever, there is a deep alienation of affection between these two that is not rooted in money. If the wife is not looking to mend that rift, but only wants a platform for persuading the OP away from what they’ve agreed on, then I think he is wise not to go down that road. He has no intention of re-opening that, and so the process will only end by widening the rift.

OTOH, he has thought from early on that she might re-think her position when the full reality of what she’s been gunning for hits her. The only question is whether she is ready to accept the reality of what it takes to mend the fences. If this is one more instance of wanting to have her cake and eat it, too, he’d be wise to conserve the chance at reconciliation until a date when a good outcome is a possibility. That’s something that he’ll discern a) firsthand and b) with the help of those with professional experience in the area. A simple combination of what she says and what he wants to believe is not a good substitute.

 

[kbachler]

Part 1

“Based on how he has treated his wife, his wife has every reason to expect that he will work to trap her and treat her badly.” Where did this expectation come from? Was this supposed to have happened before or after she took up with the other men?

Read Tucdoc’s own statements, about how he treated her, about how she’s acting now. Listen carefully. It’s there.Take the financial information. Her knowledge of finances seems to be childlike - and he treated her that way. Do you think that helped her to grow in her understanding?

And they ARE STILL playing out this pattern. So (it seems as though) she feels angry and talked down to like he’s not listening to her. But Tuc isn’t HEARING how she feels (ever hear him say it clearly with respect to this?) You have to listen for it. She’s mad, she’s angry. Why? It always takes two and he’s playing into this pattern of arguing also. He needs to break the pattern for her to see that he is truly willing and to joing him in a discussion.

Perhaps I have missed a round of atrocious behavior on his part? She has said from the beginning that she felt used and not respected by the OP, and I’m not quarrelling with her report of her perspective, but has he ever admitted that it was his intention to either use her or deny her respect?

Why does he have to say that? The fact is, he’s DONE it. And it’s clear by both of their responses.

Therefore, I could say, “based on her perceptions of his treatement of her, she has every reason”, et cetera, but I would not expect him to concede “based on how he has treated his wife…”. If he had no intention to mistreat her, but did things which were worse in her eyes than he intended, that is different than creating the expectation that “he will work to trap her.”

No, it isn’t. Intention doesn’t change what actually happened, so it doesn’t change what is actually felt by her. Her feelings are hers, completely valid and justified. She needs to work through hers, he needs to work through his, and they need to work through stuff together.

IF HE INSISTS on proving her wrong, he WILL in all likelihood end the discussion and his marriage. If instead, he bides his time and works on the discussion first, he has a chance to save his marriage. Its a simple choice.

 

[tucdoc]

I sent my wife an e-mail this AM which was almost verbatim Kbachler’s post, and sent my lawyer a copy. While my lawyer like the message, my wife has yet to respond. I know she is upset about my not giving her as much money as she feels she needs for the month. I did give her money for the kids back-to-school expenses (books, clothes, supplies, etc.). She took money out for the month on July 15 and now she wants more.

We have scheduled a settlement conference for next week. She was not happy with the settlement we drafted with the mediator 3 1/2 months ago, so the process goes on. I do feel she wants to have her cake and eat it to. She has asked for a legal separation with me moving back to the house. I can’t go back to that situation, a loveless marriage where all I feel is resentment and contempt. I don’t think her request for reconciliation was sincere. I am really disappointed we didn’t go to Retroville last weekend. It was when she rejected my request to go for the weekend 6 months ago that I decided to move out. To me it meant that she had no intention on trying to make the marriage work.

I will suggest to the kids that they see there therapist again. When I met with their therapist she informed me of how they are not very expressive of their emotions to her. It may be the age, their getting comfortable with her, or maybe they are still processing all of this.

 

[kbachler]

Part 2

He has treated her in ways that she didn’t like, but that is not the same as bad treatment.

Yes, it actually is, from her completely valid perspective. And now he has a choice - to respect that perspective to reach a continuing conversation, or to criticize it and drive her away.

He has been on the look-out for deceptions on her part, but that is not the same as entrapment. All of us who are parents know that the opposite can as easily be true; that is, that the spouse or parent who gives in to every unreasonable whim does their spouse or child wrong, even though the initial result is delight and approval.

She is not a child. Her feelings are valid. He needs to listen and treat her thant way.

Furthermore, just because you have grown used to enabling or permissiveness does not mean that you are entitled to expect absolute license. Rather, it is a moral imperative that the enabler stop giving you so much rope that you can hang yourself three times over.

No one is advocating enabling or permissiveness. You’re missing the entire point.

He IS NOT her PARENT. He is her husband. He needs to show that he respects her.

Much of what married couples do in situations like this is acting out. People will have affairs, not to enjoy the sex, but to hurt the spouse. If he has acted for years in a way that he doesn’t RESPECT her, do you think she’s going to respect his wishes when it comes to going to baseball games with her friends? His error did come first, it seems, in this respect, and while that doesn’t justify her response, it makes it understandable.

This is not about controlling, punishing, or anything else. The ONLY goal right now is to get a mediated, directed conversation happening with a counselor. Anything else will likely blow his last chance at saving this. It’s pretty easy to see.

I’m all for advancing the idea that one must often accept a humbled position and remain silent in order to maintain peace. This is admirable advice and is part of the sacrificial love that marriage can require

But that isn’t the advice being given. You are reading into this so much that it isn’t. Listen. The advice is to LISTEN to her, stop telling her what she is doing wrong (for the time being), and focus on getting into counseling. Until that is accomplished, and there is some stability in that, that is the ONLY goal. No one is saying to NEVER criticize her behavior. We are sayint that NOW IS NOT THE TIME. Now is the time to show that he can listen to her and respect her feelings. PERIOD. Anything else, she is likely not to come to the table.

. It is neither humble nor wise, however, nor is it expedient in the long term, to actively consent to a characterization of the situation that is simply not true.

Nor is anyone arguing that he should.

In this case, in particular, that will come back to haunt him. So if he were to say, “I know that this action or that was hurtful”, fine. If he were to say, “I trapped you on purpose and I admit that”, that is another thing. You can only make that kind of a statement if it is true, and you shouldn’t be talked into it if your conscience doesn’t give full consent to its truth.

Why does he have to say anything? And if he does, why can’t he say “I hear what you are saying. I appreciate what you are feeling. I have a diffent perception of what was happening, but I’d like to focus on what you are saying and feeling for now.” What requirement is there for him to give an opinion, RIGHT NOW?

If his therapist or priest says the same, however, so be it, as long as he is being asked to be silent and bide his time, and not being asked to sign off on a lie as if it were the truth. There is no good outcome from going down that road. If extending the angst of this situation saves the marriage and a good marriage can bloom where a marriage destined to struggle had been planted, it will be well worth it. If he is being asked to try the same thing and expect a different result, though, then he is exhausting one of a limited number of emotional campaigns that he is going to have the strength to mount. Base one of those campaigns on lies about himself told in order to keep the peace, and he will have a lifetime to regret that folly.

You haven’t been listening, and have added a number of things that were not stated. The goal is to save the marriage. That requires discussion. That requires both people being there. That requires her having enough trust that he will respect her. He’s NEVER demonstrated that to her. Now he has to. Period.

You are only hearing one side. Listen for her side.

 

[kbachler]

I sent my wife an e-mail this AM which was almost verbatim Kbachler’s post, and sent my lawyer a copy. While my lawyer like the message, my wife has yet to respond. I know she is upset about my not giving her as much money as she feels she needs for the month. I did give her money for the kids back-to-school expenses (books, clothes, supplies, etc.). She took money out for the month on July 15 and now she wants more.

We have scheduled a settlement conference for next week. She was not happy with the settlement we drafted with the mediator 3 1/2 months ago, so the process goes on. I do feel she wants to have her cake and eat it to. She has asked for a legal separation with me moving back to the house. I can’t go back to that situation, a loveless marriage where all I feel is resentment and contempt. I don’t think her request for reconciliation was sincere. I am really disappointed we didn’t go to Retroville last weekend. It was when she rejected my request to go for the weekend 6 months ago that I decided to move out. To me it meant that she had no intention on trying to make the marriage work.

I will suggest to the kids that they see there therapist again. When I met with their therapist she informed me of how they are not very expressive of their emotions to her. It may be the age, their getting comfortable with her, or maybe they are still processing all of this.

Much better conversation.

Stay firm, clear on message, keep plugging, focus on hearing her. If she sees you trying to grow, she will react. If she sees you trying to change her, she’ll react negatively.

 

[kbachler]

I will suggest to the kids that they see there therapist again. When I met with their therapist she informed me of how they are not very expressive of their emotions to her. It may be the age, their getting comfortable with her, or maybe they are still processing all of this.

Perhaps a meeting with them you and wife, and ask them to tell YOU how they feel, and then just listen. If they stop, ask a question, and ask about their feelings. They (or the therapist) will get around to how they feel about wife, don’t ask. YOU can’t be the one to ask these things.

 

[EasterJoy]

You haven’t been listening, and have added a number of things that were not stated. The goal is to save the marriage. That requires discussion. That requires both people being there. That requires her having enough trust that he will respect her. He’s NEVER demonstrated that to her. Now he has to. Period.

You are only hearing one side. Listen for her side.

This ground was covered roughly a year ago. I’ve been listening for her side, but there is a limit to how many times you can ask a man to repeat the same thing with a hope for a different result.

There are times when marriages are not saved by endlessly enabling a self-serving view of the situation. But yes, this is something for professionals who can talk to both parties to help sort out. A year might seem a long time to go around in the same circles, but a divorce is forever. If there seems to be a good way out of the round-about, by all means it is worth looking into.

 

[tucdoc]

I disagree with the certainty of Faithfully’s comment that past performance predicts future performance. This does not allow room for improvement and the possibility of change if one is motivated to do so. It is especially difficult when the past is remembered differently and selectively. With this fatalistic approach there is no hope.