Will "Altar Girls" lead to Women Priests?

[Bluegoat]

I am curious. In the traditional chapels, do men do the cleaning, sweeping, mopping? Do they also serve as a men’s altar society?

I really don’t know.

Now among the Orthodox, I don’t believe that women normally go behind the iconostasis at all. There might be an exception in convents, but other than that I think it is fairly strict. But normally, men take care of everything back there. I suppose they may bring the linens to women to wash and iron.

I’ve never been to a Western church where the primary responsibility for the linens, polishing, and so on, did not fall on the women. But I haven’t been to every church in North America by any means.

 

[Bluegoat]

Yes lets look at the context shall we.

To which I was replying when I said:

It was you telling men not only to shut up but that they actually need to change the way they think because according to you it is not acceptable to think like that…

It is women acting like the thought police, that try to force men to be more relationship centred and emotionally in touch that drive men away from church. God did not make men that way, and by trying to get men to change by applying emotional pressure you are trying to change His very God given nature and you will simply drive the man away.

This is why some thought posting the questionable comments was I bad idea. The biggest problem with your comments is that you directed them towards individuals, not opinions. Towards women, not particular arguments. And the comments werecatty and passive-aggressive.

But, yes, I stand by the idea that if men refuse to attend or help in church because it seems too girly, that is an inadequate Christian response. I’d like them to exhibit their rational, rather than emotional, nature, and do the right thing, despite how they feel.

I don’t know any priest, theologian, EFC, or serious Christian that would defend that idea as a POV. I am frankly surprised to see that some think it is acceptable. I don’t think I was going too far by being rather harsh about this attitude - it is pretty clearly unchristian.

I have no problem with men, or others, *feeling *alienated from the modern forms of Christianity, and it’s over-emphasis on emotion. I don’t want to regulate feeling, and frankly I feel the same way. What is unacceptable from a Christian perspective is a response to those feelings which simply says I won’t have anything to do with it because it doesn’t appeal to me.

I have already said that I think there has indeed been a kind of feminaization in Western Christianity. (though I wonder if feminization is the best term - I know many women who find it a real problem). I think that it makes it harder for many people to relate to it.

But saying altar girls are a serious part of the problem is like swatting a fly when there is an elephant on your toe, and I don’t think it is about there being a lot of women in many roles within the church - that has always been true.

Now as far as something that would go further towards preventing alienation of men and boys, perhaps we should talk about getting rid of all the sappy sentimental music. Aside from the poor theology and music, I suspect many people are embarrassed to sing such sloppy sentimental stuff, and find it hard to relate to God through that lens.

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

IT IS A STATISTICAL FACT…that statement is the truth and there can never be malice in speaking the truth. Let me guess, I am a racist because I am about to make this comment: “The majority of crime in this country and the majority of the people incarcerated in this country are black people”—Is that a racist comment? I know it is the truth…same goes for my comment about NO women and the rate of contracepting. If I am wrong, prove me wrong. Otherwise, stop being insulted by the truth. The truth hurts sometimes…but in the end, it is still the truth

OK- how about this one!

In the comment above, whether you like it or not, you have just made a very sweeping and hurtful generalization of any woman who attends the OF and does not have children.
If you want to talk about slander and false accusation, maybe you need to take a look at your own wqrds.

Shall I continue?

 

[Milesius]

I was not making a judgement about whether it was acceptable though you see, I was pointing out what is a reality, because like it or not we live in a real world populated by real men who sometimes think in ways people like you do not find acceptable.

Now we can all form a nice committee and spend hours discussing whether men’s attitudes are acceptable to us or not and how they make us feel etc. all we want but even if you could find some consensus on the issue you will have done nothing to help solve the religious crisis that is effecting the western man.

In fact if the consensus agreed with you then you will have just confirmed most men’s suspicions that Western Christianity is not compatible with been a man.

 

[kozlosap]

IT IS A STATISTICAL FACT…that statement is the truth and there can never be malice in speaking the truth. Let me guess, I am a racist because I am about to make this comment: “The majority of crime in this country and the majority of the people incarcerated in this country are black people”—Is that a racist comment? I know it is the truth…same goes for my comment about NO women and the rate of contracepting. If I am wrong, prove me wrong. Otherwise, stop being insulted by the truth. The truth hurts sometimes…but in the end, it is still the truth

I should have stayed in bed and slept through this…How on earth did we get from “discussing” girls being alter servers to the horrible NO women who have no children or only 1 or 2? So if logic prevails then if a girl is an alter server at the NO Mass then when she grows up she will use contraception and only have a small family that she attends the NO Mass with?? Have you ever considered that they are using NFP and can only afford to have 2 kids that they can raise and send to college? Also, a couple has been married for 10 years and has no children MUST be contracepting - no thought that maybe they are having a problem conceiving and are in total anguish. Dum_Spiro_Spero, can you put yourself in the average woman who is reading this thread’s shoes and see how you sound? I won’t argue the Black/African-American population in the prison system idea. A basic Sociology 101 class could help you clear up the history on that front.

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

You are missing the corelation I am making…it is not that girls who serve in the NO grow up to contracept…No. However, one of the biggest arguments that are made in favor of Altar Fems is that there are not enough boys available to serve, so girls have to step up. As I stated earlier, you will find more boys in a 150 Family SSPX parish than a 1000 family diocesesan Cathedral…they never seem to have a shortage of young men/boys that are capable and willing to serve on The Altar. Why is there such a disparity?

I should have stayed in bed and slept through this…How on earth did we get from “discussing” girls being alter servers to the horrible NO women who have no children or only 1 or 2? So if logic prevails then if a girl is an alter server at the NO Mass then when she grows up she will use contraception and only have a small family that she attends the NO Mass with?? Have you ever considered that they are using NFP and can only afford to have 2 kids that they can raise and send to college? Also, a couple has been married for 10 years and has no children MUST be contracepting - no thought that maybe they are having a problem conceiving and are in total anguish. Dum_Spiro_Spero, can you put yourself in the average woman who is reading this thread’s shoes and see how you sound? I won’t argue the Black/African-American population in the prison system idea. A basic Sociology 101 class could help you clear up the history on that front.

 

[kozlosap]

My parish has loads of boys and girls who serve. Our CS is on our parish campus. We have a census of about 7500 members. Normally kids beginning serving in 6th grade or at about age 12. I completely understand the rules for the TLR and that girls are not allowed to serve, but as long as it is allowed for the NO and our Bishop agrees, then to quote a very famous song, “Let It Be”. Being 57, I’m in the middle of the big age groups - not a person with a young family and not elderly (yet)! At 7:30 a.m. mass on Sunday’s there are many families and many people who come to church by themselves. I try to go early when the lights are dim and it is quiet to pray and there are at least 50 others who do the same. The music at that mass is horrible (organ only), but it is traditional. Our “less traditional” music is at the 5:30 mass on Sunday evening. Just a short bio so you know where I am “coming” from.

 

[Lux_Ad_Orientum]

What exactly is an anti-woman tone? Would you say the same thing about I Corintheans?

Yes!! “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to BE IN SILENCE.” That is in the Douey Rheims BIBLE. A female to be in silence. And now people like us are accused of being “against females” because we keep to the Divinely Inspired teachings of Saint Paul? What Jesus’s disciple wrote then is a BEACON call to us today:

And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression. [15] Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

The WOMAN WAS IN TRANSGRESSION. God created them Man and female, but the woman transgressed. So Man serves God in his Sanctuary, and woman serves man by CHILDBREARING. Two differenert roles. For two different types of person, it is ordered by God. A female must not approach the Sanctuary of God just like a Man cannot get pregnant. You are completely right, this is not an “anti woman tone!” God LOVES every Man and woman, and it was God who ordered that the female would be in service by getting pregnant and child rearing. Men in the Sanctuary. God is not anti woman!!! Modernists and homosexuals who want to twist the roles of Men and females are the ones of who are truely anti woman. Thank you Pro VObis!

 

[kozlosap]

Yes!! “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to BE IN SILENCE.” That is in the Douey Rheims BIBLE. A female to be in silence. And now people like us are accused of being “against females” because we keep to the Divinely Inspired teachings of Saint Paul? What Jesus’s disciple wrote then is a BEACON call to us today:

The WOMAN WAS IN TRANSGRESSION. God created them Man and female, but the woman transgressed. So Man serves God in his Sanctuary, and woman serves man by CHILDBREARING. Two differenert roles. For two different types of person, it is ordered by God. A female must not approach the Sanctuary of God just like a Man cannot get pregnant. You are completely right, this is not an “anti woman tone!” God LOVES every Man and woman, and it was God who ordered that the female would be in service by getting pregnant and child rearing. Men in the Sanctuary. God is not anti woman!!! Modernists and homosexuals who want to twist the roles of Men and females are the ones of who are truely anti woman. Thank you Pro VObis!

What about the nuns throughout the ages who have served? I certainly don’t think that all of them were “quiet” about their callings to serve. It is easy to quote scripture to justify any position we might hold on almost any issue, pro and con found in the same chapters in fact. I don’t imagine that you really want to go back to the age when men and women sat in different places during worship services.

 

[Corki]

Ed - what I meant was the social evolution of women such as being able to own property, vote, attend college, sit on juries and work in professional fields that were previously male dominated. In almost every instance, women were “not allowed” to participate in any of the aforementioned activities less than 100 years ago.

I think a little historical correction is needed here. While women have had the vote in the US for not quite a hundred years, colleges have been admitting women since before the War of Independance. Women have had property rights here since the 1600s. Juries were first “sexually integrated” in 1870. The first woman doctor graduated med school in 1849. Women have been admitted to the bar to practice law, even before the Supreme Court, since at least the 1890s.

I understand what you are trying to say but mistating the facts doesn’t help your argument.

 

[kozlosap]

Sorry! I really did think that women could not serve on juries until the early 20th century! I think that property rites were a state by state decision and even though I did watch Dr. Quinn women were not on an equal footing with men in medicine until the last 30 or 40 years. What I was trying to emphasize is that in the last one hundred years women have made great strides in “social” areas. Thanks for your gentle corrections! Sometimes when I sit at this laptop and read things that “set me off”, I just start slamming away at the keyboard and what comes out is more sarcasm than researched fact. I try and teach my 10th graders not to be overly reactive when writing and then I fall into that same hole!

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

Yet…point being, advances in the world and an ever changing society and culture have no bearing on matters of The Church. Women still have a defined role for the family and The Church and they need to stick to and not try to be something are not and can not be.

Sorry! I really did think that women could not serve on juries until the early 20th century! I think that property rites were a state by state decision and even though I did watch Dr. Quinn women were not on an equal footing with men in medicine until the last 30 or 40 years. What I was trying to emphasize is that in the last one hundred years women have made great strides in “social” areas. Thanks for your gentle corrections! Sometimes when I sit at this laptop and read things that “set me off”, I just start slamming away at the keyboard and what comes out is more sarcasm than researched fact. I try and teach my 10th graders not to be overly reactive when writing and then I fall into that same hole!

 

[kozlosap]

I still do not believe in my heart that just because a girl is an alter server at age 12 that she will want to be a priest at 25. Because I’m in a profession where I come into contact with teenagers on an “hourly” basis, I’m more hopeful about vocations for our Church than most people. My “at-risk” students come from impoverished backgrounds, yet the majority also attend church and work in addition to coming to school everyday. These kids are under no illusions about the world, including who can and cannot become a priest. One of my students is about to become a senior this year. He has a visual processing disorder, but still manages to pass every college prep class and attend school everyday. He was born when his mother was 14 and his 7th sibling was born on July 5th this summer. (I made sure and knitted booties and a hat to make Jesus feel special!). This summer he attended summer school to take an extra class (so he can play soccer) and also worked in a job that the school district had helped him find as a helper in a catering business and his own job 30 hours a week at Mickey D’s! He attends weekly mass at the Spanish parish in Sacramento and has served mass for 4 years. I asked him if he had ever thought of discerning the priesthood. He answered that he had thought of it, however, he needed to work to make sure his family had enough money. These are the types of young people I see everyday. Of course, I also encounter the spoiled brats who would never think of serving the Lord in any capacity whether it be alter server or janitor. Please give both young women AND men the benefit of the doubt - most of them are just trying to fit into the world that WE have made for them. The Church has endured for 2000 years through the Dark Ages and the Reformation, certainly she will survive girls serving at the NO Mass.

 

[GODISLOVE1970]

GOD I HOPE NOT!!! I am a female who loves to admire our beautiful Priests here in the Cleveland Catholic Diocese. I will not go to Catholic Church if a woman is a priest - it is not normal in my eyes. I think altar girls and Eucharistic Ministers and Nuns are ok for women - but not Priests. Whether women want to face it or not - there is just nothing the same as male authority and power - especially these darling Priests!!! I have seen the transformation on the altar of these gorgeous Priests here at St. John’s in Cleveland - beautiful!!! I wouldn’t see that on a woman and neither would I want to!!!

GOD BLESS ALL!!! I LOVE THE FATHER, SON & HOLY SPIRIT!!! Also, My MARY AND THE ANGELS AND SAINTS!!!

 

[paperwight]

GOD I HOPE NOT!!! I am a female who loves to admire our beautiful Priests here in the Cleveland Catholic Diocese. I will not go to Catholic Church if a woman is a priest - it is not normal in my eyes. I think altar girls and Eucharistic Ministers and Nuns are ok for women - but not Priests. Whether women want to face it or not - there is just nothing the same as male authority and power - especially these darling Priests!!! I have seen the transformation on the altar of these gorgeous Priests here at St. John’s in Cleveland - beautiful!!! I wouldn’t see that on a woman and neither would I want to!!!

GOD BLESS ALL!!! I LOVE THE FATHER, SON & HOLY SPIRIT!!! Also, My MARY AND THE ANGELS AND SAINTS!!!

Calm down, calm down.

 

[Bluegoat]

I was not making a judgement about whether it was acceptable though you see, I was pointing out what is a reality, because like it or not we live in a real world populated by real men who sometimes think in ways people like you do not find acceptable.

Now we can all form a nice committee and spend hours discussing whether men’s attitudes are acceptable to us or not and how they make us feel etc. all we want but even if you could find some consensus on the issue you will have done nothing to help solve the religious crisis that is effecting the western man.

In fact if the consensus agreed with you then you will have just confirmed most men’s suspicions that Western Christianity is not compatible with been a man.

It is human nature that people stay away from things that don’t appeal to them, or are difficult. Many people stay away from Christianity for that reason. Augustine said that is why the neoplatonic philosophers refused to accept Christ, other historical Christian teachers mention it often, we can see it everywhere, and the Bible even describes this.

So would you say then that Christianity is not compatible with being human? Should we look to change what we consider acceptable to make it more palatable?

Also, you seem to be the one going on about people’s feelings. Most of the female posters (except the lady who loves priests a lot) have been calm and rational, on either side of the question. The men have shown far more emotion. It would be nice if you would stop implying that the women are only concerned about feelings. They seem to be interested in the substantive issue in their posts.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

IT IS A STATISTICAL FACT…that statement is the truth and there can never be malice in speaking the truth. Let me guess, I am a racist because I am about to make this comment: “The majority of crime in this country and the majority of the people incarcerated in this country are black people”—Is that a racist comment? I know it is the truth…same goes for my comment about NO women and the rate of contracepting. If I am wrong, prove me wrong. Otherwise, stop being insulted by the truth. The truth hurts sometimes…but in the end, it is still the truth

And I am sure that you will share the ***proof ***of this, correct?

You know exactly what is going on in the bedroom and in the hearts & minds of each and every Catholic that attends a OF Mass, correct?

WOW, that is pretty amazing, I thought that only God had that ability!

With all due respect to you as a child of God, this is the exact attitude that paints “Traditional Catholicism” in a very bad light.

 

[Samantha79]

Yes!! “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to BE IN SILENCE.” That is in the Douey Rheims BIBLE. A female to be in silence. And now people like us are accused of being “against females” because we keep to the Divinely Inspired teachings of Saint Paul? What Jesus’s disciple wrote then is a BEACON call to us today:

The WOMAN WAS IN TRANSGRESSION. God created them Man and female, but the woman transgressed. So Man serves God in his Sanctuary, and woman serves man by CHILDBREARING. Two differenert roles. For two different types of person, it is ordered by God. A female must not approach the Sanctuary of God just like a Man cannot get pregnant. You are completely right, this is not an “anti woman tone!” God LOVES every Man and woman, and it was God who ordered that the female would be in service by getting pregnant and child rearing. Men in the Sanctuary. God is not anti woman!!! Modernists and homosexuals who want to twist the roles of Men and females are the ones of who are truely anti woman. Thank you Pro VObis!

A women can be capable of more than getting pregnant and raising children…not every man is called to the priesthood; if we’re going to be using your example.

And what about all those centuries of female saints that taught by speaking, writing, and by example? Should we de-canonize them based on your D-R interpretation?

 

[Milesius]

It is human nature that people stay away from things that don’t appeal to them, or are difficult. Many people stay away from Christianity for that reason. Augustine said that is why the neoplatonic philosophers refused to accept Christ, other historical Christian teachers mention it often, we can see it everywhere, and the Bible even describes this.

It is not the only reason. And does not explain the reason why more men stay away than women. Clearly there must be something more otherwise the numbers staying away would be equal among the sexes.

So would you say then that Christianity is not compatible with being human?

No I would not say that Christianity is not compatible with been human, just as I never said Christianity is not compatible with been a man.

Christianity as it is presented to men in the West appears not to be compatible with the masculinity, but the problem is in the presentation not with Christianity itself, Eastern Christianity does not have the same problem despite holding almost identical beliefs. And most men only get to know the presentation offered to them in their church they do not hang around to delve into what Christianity actually is, they have no reason to doubt what is presented to them by the church they attend.

Should we look to change what we consider acceptable to make it more palatable?

Ah but what we consider acceptable has changed, it has changed to be more palatable to the modern “liberated” woman, we are talking about one such change in this very thread.

 

[Apollos]

I still do not believe in my heart that just because a girl is an alter server at age 12 that she will want to be a priest at 25.

It is *perfectly *conceivable to me that in half a generation people will be saying, “But they allow altar girls!”