Will "Altar Girls" lead to Women Priests?

[Apollos]

And what about all those centuries of female saints

Sts Catherine, Teresa, and Therese should be what - *nurses *of the Church?

 

[pnewton]

Yet…point being, advances in the world and an ever changing society and culture have no bearing on matters of The Church.

I submit that you will not be able to show this statement to be found any where within the teaching of the Catholic Church during the last 2000 years.

The very first Council dealt with the clash of cultures between the Greek and the Jews. Specific regulations were in place because cultural sensitivities needed to be considered. The Council of Trent was convened to deal with the changes in society following the Reformation. In the 19th century Pope Leo XIII wrote Orientalum Dignitalus in which he opposed the absolute latinization of other cultures in order to preserve the specific cultures of each people. Pope Pius XII allowed for the veneration of family in China as a sign of respect.

Pope Paul VI said that "the split between the Gospel and culture is undoubtedly the tragedy of our time. - Redemptorios Mission (Venerable John Paul referring to Evangelii Nuntiandi)

No, changes in society and culture do not dictate the actions of the Church, but to say that it has not bearing simply has not been historically true, nor is it the what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[pnewton]

It is *perfectly *conceivable to me that in half a generation people will be saying, “But they allow altar girls!”

The problem is that the comparison ignores a theologic truth. It is the over-looked elephant in this discussion. Ordination is a Sacrament. As such it require valid matter. Only a man is valid matter for the sacrament to be confected. A leap to female priests is no more tenable than being able to use breakfast tacos for the Eucharist because they are being sold after Mass.

Where is the respect for the separation between the priest and the laity that I have come to expect in this forum? Agruments that are iron clad for an all male priesthood are being sluffed off to cover any male that gets within twenty-five feet of the altar. The two issues are on as different levels as possible. One is a defined dogma (male priesthood). The other issue is merely a disciplinary matter. Yes, argue that it is foolish if that is what you believe, of that it damages vocations, but there is no theology behind only males being valid matter to be within proximity of the altar. There is no need to blur the distinctiveness between the priest and the laity.

 

[Pieman333272]

[A little late and repetitive, but nevertheless]
No, it won’t. 2000 years of tradition isn’t going to change just because of statistics. Now, might it help root them in their faith, yes. Will it increase the number of nuns? Quite likely. But it will not let there be female priests or deacons.

 

[Bluegoat]

It is not the only reason. And does not explain the reason why more men stay away than women. Clearly there must be something more otherwise the numbers staying away would be equal among the sexes.

No I would not say that Christianity is not compatible with been human, just as I never said Christianity is not compatible with been a man.

Christianity as it is presented to men in the West appears not to be compatible with the masculine spirit, but the problem is in the presentation not with Christianity itself, Eastern Christianity does not have the same problem despite holding almost identical beliefs. And most men only get to know the presentation offered to them in their church they do not hang around to delve into what Christianity actually is, they have no reason to doubt what is presented to them by the church they attend.

Ah but what we consider acceptable has changed, it has changed to be more palatable to the modern “liberated” woman, we are talking about one such change in this very thread.

This has been going on for far longer than the feminist movement though. I don’t think the goal at all was to scare away men, and before the liturgical changes, there were still fewer men than women attending in the Catholic Church.

I agree that men have a harder row to hoe with this than women - the fact that there are so few men is a sign of illness. But it isn’t I think primarily a male/female issue. Many women have also been alienated, and it isn’t healthy even for those who don’t mind it.

I think there are two main differences that account for women remaining. One is that things like singinng sentimental love songs about Jesus is less weird for them.

Another is that when there is a real lack of rational intellectual teaching about Christianity. It does tend to the emotional connection. Now both men and women need both of these things, but women do not tend to be discreet thinkers as men are. They can use that emotional presentation of religion and apply it to their intellectual lives.

And I think a third (I know I said there were two) is that often women are responsible for maintaining the family connections and friendships in the family, and if those are in the church community, that keeps them in.

My thoughts on bringing men to church:

Get rid of the really sentimental music and art, and supplement the good stuff with art and music that is not sentimental. Men would much rather sing “St Patrick’s Breastplate” than “Gather Us In”. And most men don’t identify with pictures of saints who look like pink, fresh scrubbed, doe eyed aesthetes.

Present Christianity as a real intellectual option. Some really good preaching might help here.

Bring back a more rigorous spiritual and physical discipline. Many men like to do things, rather than talk about them. They want to use their bodies.

But I don’t see a million threads dedicated to these ideas, which would be far more effective than making a fuss about female altar servers.

 

[Apollos]

My thoughts on bringing men to church:

Get rid of the really sentimental music and art, and supplement the good stuff with art and music that is not sentimental. Men would much rather sing “St Patrick’s Breastplate” than “Gather Us In”. And most men don’t identify with pictures of saints who look like pink, fresh scrubbed, doe eyed aesthetes.

Present Christianity as a real intellectual option. Some really good preaching might help here.

Bring back a more rigorous spiritual and physical discipline. Many men like to do things, rather than talk about them. They want to use their bodies.

But I don’t see a million threads dedicated to these ideas, which would be far more effective than making a fuss about female altar servers.

You make my brain feel good.

 

[kozlosap]

This has been going on for far longer than the feminist movement though. I don’t think the goal at all was to scare away men, and before the liturgical changes, there were still fewer men than women attending in the Catholic Church.

I agree that men have a harder row to hoe with this than women - the fact that there are so few men is a sign of illness. But it isn’t I think primarily a male/female issue. Many women have also been alienated, and it isn’t healthy even for those who don’t mind it.

I think there are two main differences that account for women remaining. One is that things like singinng sentimental love songs about Jesus is less weird for them.

Another is that when there is a real lack of rational intellectual teaching about Christianity. It does tend to the emotional connection. Now both men and women need both of these things, but women do not tend to be discreet thinkers as men are. They can use that emotional presentation of religion and apply it to their intellectual lives.

And I think a third (I know I said there were two) is that often women are responsible for maintaining the family connections and friendships in the family, and if those are in the church community, that keeps them in.

My thoughts on bringing men to church:

Get rid of the really sentimental music and art, and supplement the good stuff with art and music that is not sentimental. Men would much rather sing “St Patrick’s Breastplate” than “Gather Us In”. And most men don’t identify with pictures of saints who look like pink, fresh scrubbed, doe eyed aesthetes.

Present Christianity as a real intellectual option. Some really good preaching might help here.

Bring back a more rigorous spiritual and physical discipline. Many men like to do things, rather than talk about them. They want to use their bodies.

But I don’t see a million threads dedicated to these ideas, which would be far more effective than making a fuss about female altar servers.

What great ideas! I think this is much more useful than continually sniping at each other about traditions, etc.

 

[ProVobis]

The Church has endured for 2000 years through the Dark Ages and the Reformation, certainly she will survive girls serving at the NO Mass.

You mean she will survive DESPITE girls serving at the NO Mass, don’t you?

 

[ProVobis]

What about the nuns throughout the ages who have served? I certainly don’t think that all of them were “quiet” about their callings to serve.

Sure, in convent chapels, they rang the bells and did the Latin responses maybe. But actually come face-to-face with the persona Christi with Vatican permission? I hardly doubt it.

Maybe a better question would be did the Mother of God ever serve Mass?

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

ProVobis, my friend…I think what they are basically saying is that since The Church is guaranteed to survive because of Christ’s promise…then why worry about abuses and enemies within, because She (The Church) will survive despite all of those things going on and there is no need to worry about it as long as everyone is happy and feels good…

You mean she will survive DESPITE girls serving at the NO Mass, don’t you?

 

[Milesius]

My thoughts on bringing men to church:

Get rid of the really sentimental music and art, and supplement the good stuff with art and music that is not sentimental. Men would much rather sing “St Patrick’s Breastplate” than “Gather Us In”. And most men don’t identify with pictures of saints who look like pink, fresh scrubbed, doe eyed aesthetes.

Present Christianity as a real intellectual option. Some really good preaching might help here.

Bring back a more rigorous spiritual and physical discipline. Many men like to do things, rather than talk about them. They want to use their bodies.

But I don’t see a million threads dedicated to these ideas, which would be far more effective than making a fuss about female altar servers.

Oh girls serving on the alter are an effect of causes that have been around for a very long time now you are right, but once in effect they also become yet one more cause behind men not identifying with Christianity because they are yet another aspect of Christianity where it is presented as a feminine activity.

All those ideas would certainly help but so would providing men with a way in which they can express their masculinity by been separate and independent from their mothers/sisters such as was the case in the service in the sanctuary until recently.

You don’t understand men and that’s not your fault as you are a woman, put a big part of a man’s life, in fact somethign which is central to him turning into a man is the quest to separate himself from women, most commonly by becoming independent from his mother and to differentiate himself from women by rejecting that which is feminine, it is only by doing this that he is able to become comfortable with who he is and develop into a man.

If Christianity is seen as something feminine then it becomes in many mens minds necessary to have nothing to do with it as part of been a man.

All these thigns however still don’t address the crux of the matter which is that the meek and mild, feminine Jesus preached in most places in the West doesn’t work as a masculine role model and actually repulses masculine men, not to mention that it is not an accurate portrayal of the God Man.

 

[Jimmy_Martello]

There will never be women priests in the Roman Catholic Church.
The cases of women that were elevated to the deaconate in the early Church were abbesses, and since the general advocates for the reinstitution of women to this state in life would be too afraid Mother Angelica would be ordained first, I don’t think anyone should worry about this happening.
The Church has never had, nor will it ever have the power or authority to ordain women priest.

 

[Lux_Ad_Orientum]

Sure, in convent chapels, they rang the bells and did the Latin responses maybe. But actually come face-to-face with the persona Christi with Vatican permission? I hardly doubt it.

Maybe a better question would be did the Mother of God ever serve Mass?

:clapping:

EXACTLY. Women do NOT approach God. Mary was at the foot of the True Cross, but she did not speak and did not interfere! Female “religious” are great as a way to atone for the transgression of Eve, but we MUST not confuse that role with the proper function of Men in the woship of God at Mass. 1962 years of Traditional Catholics passed that truth down to us only the influence of the Evil One could make us turn our backs on ageless Sacred Tradition. Ripping out altar rails so that any random female can liturgical-dance her way up around the altar. Disgusting.

Women should NOT come face to face with the persona Christi! You said it Pro Vobis!!!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

There will never be women priests in the Roman Catholic Church.

Reminds me of the Tootsie Pop commercial with the owl. But instead of licks it is something else.

How many times must the laity be told that only men will be deacons, priests and bishops? The world may never know…

Seems like there is always some knew person who cannot grasp the reality of the situation, that the Catholic Church has declared definatively that only men can be ordained.

 

[kozlosap]

:clapping:

EXACTLY. Women do NOT approach God. Mary was at the foot of the True Cross, but she did not speak and did not interfere! Female “religious” are great as a way to atone for the transgression of Eve, but we MUST not confuse that role with the proper function of Men in the woship of God at Mass. 1962 years of Traditional Catholics passed that truth down to us only the influence of the Evil One could make us turn our backs on ageless Sacred Tradition. Ripping out altar rails so that any random female can liturgical-dance her way up around the altar. Disgusting.

Women should NOT come face to face with the persona Christi! You said it Pro Vobis!!!

So, I will be the one (a disgusting female who obviously came under the influence of the Evil One) to say it: Do you respect any women at all? I am learning so much, especially how the alter rails were torn out specifically so any random woman can do the liturgical dance up around the alter. Do your daughters wear sack cloth and ashes to atone for the sin of Eve? I take that back - you would never stoop to having a daughter. I have seen many sick posts recently, but your’s takes the cake. (Yes, probably baked by an evil, ungodly and dirty female).

 

[JacktheCatholic]

So, I will be the one (a disgusting female who obviously came under the influence of the Evil One) to say it: Do you respect any women at all? I am learning so much, especially how the alter rails were torn out specifically so any random woman can do the liturgical dance up around the alter. Do your daughters wear sack cloth and ashes to atone for the sin of Eve? I take that back - you would never stoop to having a daughter. I have seen many sick posts recently, but your’s takes the cake. (Yes, probably baked by an evil, ungodly and dirty female).

I am trying to imagine Christ in this post…

Nope.

Maybe you can help me?

 

[Bluegoat]

So, I will be the one (a disgusting female who obviously came under the influence of the Evil One) to say it: Do you respect any women at all? I am learning so much, especially how the alter rails were torn out specifically so any random woman can do the liturgical dance up around the alter. Do your daughters wear sack cloth and ashes to atone for the sin of Eve? I take that back - you would never stoop to having a daughter. I have seen many sick posts recently, but your’s takes the cake. (Yes, probably baked by an evil, ungodly and dirty female).

I don’t think he is really Catholic. I think he is part of a wacko separatist group.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Reminds me of the Tootsie Pop commercial with the owl. But instead of licks it is something else.

How many times must the laity be told that only men will be deacons, priests and bishops? The world may never know…

Seems like there is always some knew person who cannot grasp the reality of the situation, that the Catholic Church has declared definatively that only men can be ordained.

Those who do only see the priesthood as a job and a title. They do not understand the underlying spirituality behind it, and why it needs a male.

Its the same people who think the role of parents can be accomplished by same-sex couples. They do not take into consideration the unique psychological, emotional, and spiritual attributes that each gender possess and contribute to the wellbeing of the child or children.

For ages we have fought for equality. Now that we have it, it isn’t as rosy as we thought it would be.

 

[kozlosap]

I am trying to imagine Christ in this post…

Nope.

Maybe you can help me?

I said I was sorry before the post. You didn’t find anything un-Christlike in the post I was referring to? It was dribble of the most virulent form - and we wonder why young people are leaving the church. Church history is available in written form, and I would seriously doubt if you could find anything concerning alter rails being removed from churches that have anything to do with “evil women dancing up to the alter”. What I see on this forum (especially Traditional Catholics), has very little to do with the real world that 99.9% of American Catholics experience in their parish lives. Our parish is a great community of people who worship together, raise kids together and participate in many community outreach programs for the disadvantaged. I have never heard one person decry the lack of alter rails or the fact that we are a NO parish. Also, as I said before, there are loads of alter servers, both male and female. If someone wishes to participate in the Latin Rite, there is a small parish that is strictly EF and they are free to attend.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Those who do only see the priesthood as a job and a title. They do not understand the underlying spirituality behind it, and why it needs a male.

Its the same people who think the role of parents can be accomplished by same-sex couples. They do not take into consideration the unique psychological, emotional, and spiritual attributes that each gender possess and contribute to the wellbeing of the child or children.

For ages we have fought for equality. Now that we have it, it isn’t as rosy as we thought it would be.

Ain’t that the truth.

My wife would love to be able to raise the kids and have me work all day. Ironic that I am out of work and raising our kids while she works and pays the bills. I want more kids but she always says it will not work because she would need time off to have the baby.

Seems like everything is upside down…