Will "Altar Girls" lead to Women Priests?

[ProVobis]

What women do not understand is that men cultivate misogyny for the sake of women.

If a man does not be would never leave the boyhood stage and would treat all women like a mother, is that what women want a bunch of men acting like little boys? Is that even good for women? No it is not.

A man must give up the state of boyhood, in which he is protected by women, fed by women and cared for by women, so that he may himself become a protector and provider for women and children.

In other words he must give up been mothered before he can become a father. He must reject the feminine and cultivate a distance between himself and the world of women so that he can one day return to it not as a recipient, but as a giver.

But how can a man separate himself from the world of women and complete his journey into manhood when he lives in a woman’s world and there is nowhere else to go?

Women decry the lack of good men, but it is women forcing themselves on men in every aspect of society and thus denying men the space they need separate from women to fully develop that is the cause of the childish men women themselves complain about.

You are your own worst enemies and the more you fight for your “rights” and for licence to be like men the more harm you do to yourselves and the whole of society.

Best post on this thread so far.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

What women do not understand is that men cultivate misogyny for the sake of women.

If a man does not be would never leave the boyhood stage and would treat all women like a mother, is that what women want a bunch of men acting like little boys? Is that even good for women? No it is not.

A man must give up the state of boyhood, in which he is protected by women, fed by women and cared for by women, so that he may himself become a protector and provider for women and children.

In other words he must give up been mothered before he can become a father. He must reject the feminine and cultivate a distance between himself and the world of women so that he can one day return to it not as a recipient, but as a giver.

But how can a man separate himself from the world of women and complete his journey into manhood when he lives in a woman’s world and there is nowhere else to go?

Women decry the lack of good men, but it is women forcing themselves on men in every aspect of society and thus denying men the space they need separate from women to fully develop that is the cause of the childish men women themselves complain about.

You are your own worst enemies and the more you fight for your “rights” and for licence to be like men the more harm you do to yourselves and the whole of society.

Good post.

Reminded me of something someone told me in the 1990s. I was told I needed to find my “feminine” side.

I look back and think this must have been something from the feminist movement.

For the record I have not found that side and I think my wife likes it that way.

 

[minkymurph]

I am sorry to post this, and I hope I am not offensive to anyone as I really hate to be offensive to anyone’s view, but I am *so tired * of hearing the same arguements trotted out time and time again when people should really know better and grow up.

I am so tired of reading men this, women that, debates about what women should be allowed to do and what they shouldn’t be allowed to do. I am tired of the Pauline letters being misinterpreted as an endorsement of the belief women should ‘know their place.’

In the early church, women were deaconesses and assisted at baptism. Women can baptise, they can teach Religious Education in Catholic schools, they can be principles of Catholic schools, they can take degrees in theology and write books on theology yet there is a problem with a young girl setting candles on the altar, or pouring holy water on the priests hands. With two thirds of the world living in poverty, and wars going on in the Middle East, I would have thought people could find something better to occupy their minds with than female altar servers.

Are female altar servers really that much of an issue? Perhaps it is when you consider that while two thirds of the world live in poverty, there are people in the west building cyber farms on facebook at 2.00am and annoyed by the fact that someone has a better cyber farm.

Maybe it’s because I live in Northern Ireland I get so tired of people who are so easily offended. I think they look for opportunities to be offended and if one doesn’t exist, they’ll invent it. I’ve often wondered if people in other countries are so keen to be offended as they are here?

The Catholic Church does not ordain women because of their understanding of sacramentality and sacrifice. When you have a deep understanding of sacramentality and the Mass, the gender issue is not an issue. It pales into insignificance.

 

[Samantha79]

Who, Magnus?

That wasn’t who I was thinking of…oh, please, there isn’t another one, is there?

I was referring to the guy that keeps chanting women were only created to serve men by getting pregnant and raising children and they should sit in the back of the Church.

 

[Samantha79]

I am sorry to post this, and I hope I am not offensive to anyone as I really hate to be offensive to anyone’s view, but I am *so tired * of hearing the same arguements trotted out time and time again when people should really know better and grow up.

I am so tired of reading men this, women that, debates about what women should be allowed to do and what they shouldn’t be allowed to do. I am tired of the Pauline letters being misinterpreted as an endorsement of the belief women should ‘know their place.’

In the early church, women were deaconesses and assisted at baptism. Women can baptise, they can teach Religious Education in Catholic schools, they can be principles of Catholic schools, they can take degrees in theology and write books on theology yet there is a problem with a young girl setting candles on the altar, or pouring holy water on the priests hands. With two thirds of the world living in poverty, and wars going on in the Middle East, I would have thought people could find something better to occupy their minds with than female altar servers.

The Catholic Church does not ordain women because of their understanding of sacramentality and sacrifice. When you have a deep understanding of sacramentality and the Mass, the gender issue is not an issue. It pales into insignificance.

Maybe it’s because I live in Northern Ireland I get so tired of people who are so easily offended. I think they look for opportunities to be offended and if one doesn’t exist, they’ll invent it. I’ve often wondered if people in other countries are so keen to be offended as they are here?

I would also like to point out that while two thirds of the world live in poverty, there are people in the west building cyber farms on facebook at 2.00am and annoyed by the fact that someone has a better cyber farm.

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!!

:tiphat:

:clapping:

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I am sorry to post this, and I hope I am not offensive to anyone as I really hate to be offensive to anyone’s view, but I am *so tired * of hearing the same arguements trotted out time and time again when people should really know better and grow up.

I am so tired of reading men this, women that, debates about what women should be allowed to do and what they shouldn’t be allowed to do. I am tired of the Pauline letters being misinterpreted as an endorsement of the belief women should ‘know their place.’

In the early church, women were deaconesses and assisted at baptism. Women can baptise, they can teach Religious Education in Catholic schools, they can be principles of Catholic schools, they can take degrees in theology and write books on theology yet there is a problem with a young girl setting candles on the altar, or pouring holy water on the priests hands. With two thirds of the world living in poverty, and wars going on in the Middle East, I would have thought people could find something better to occupy their minds with than female altar servers.

**Are female altar servers really that much of an issue? **Perhaps it is when you consider that while two thirds of the world live in poverty, there are people in the west building cyber farms on facebook at 2.00am and annoyed by the fact that someone has a better cyber farm.

Maybe it’s because I live in Northern Ireland I get so tired of people who are so easily offended. I think they look for opportunities to be offended and if one doesn’t exist, they’ll invent it. I’ve often wondered if people in other countries are so keen to be offended as they are here?

The Catholic Church does not ordain women because of their understanding of sacramentality and sacrifice. When you have a deep understanding of sacramentality and the Mass, the gender issue is not an issue. It pales into insignificance.

Altar girls cause a misconception that females can or should be Deacons and Priests. It also pushes boys away who could be discerning to be a Deacon or Priest. OBVIOUSLY, female altar servers are an issue.

The Catholic Church will NEVER ordain women. Jesus made the Church and no one will change it. As Catholic faithful we know not to debate the issue and to accept it as a permanent truth.

But we have many Unfaithful Catholics. Even Heretical Catholics. Children of the Devil who harm Jesus Christ by attacking His Body of faithful believers.

These devils need to be excommunicated from the Church so that they may be saved.

 

[mellowcalico]

What women do not understand is that men cultivate misogyny for the sake of women.

If a man does not he would never leave the boyhood stage and would treat all women like a mother, is that what women want a bunch of men acting like little boys? Is that even good for women? No it is not.

A man must give up the state of boyhood, in which he is protected by women, fed by women and cared for by women, so that he may himself become a protector and provider for women and children.

In other words he must give up been mothered before he can become a father. He must reject the feminine and cultivate a distance between himself and the world of women so that he can one day return to it not as a recipient, but as a giver.

But how can a man separate himself from the world of women and complete his journey into manhood when he lives in a woman’s world and there is nowhere else to go?

Women decry the lack of good men, but it is women forcing themselves on men in every aspect of society and thus denying men the space they need separate from women to fully develop that is the cause of the childish men women themselves complain about.

You are your own worst enemies and the more you fight for your “rights” and the more you invade what was previously considered man’s place on the world the more harm you do to yourselves and the whole of society.

This has been an interesting topic to say the least, but I felt the need to step in here before there was further misunderstanding over one word.

In your first sentence, I don’t think you actually mean “misogyny.” Misogyny is the hatred of women because they are women. It is manifested in many different ways, from jokes to pornography to violence to the self-contempt women may be taught to feel their own bodies. It’s a total disrespect for women.

Hatred, pornography, violence are all anti-Christian.

I really don’t know what the word would be, but I think you are looking for a word that reflect male self-respect, pride and culture (which you can have while still loving others including women, wives, mothers, sisters, children, etc).

I know it’s picking nits, but I think this clarification might head off some misunderstandings.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

This has been an interesting topic to say the least, but I felt the need to step in here before there was further misunderstanding over one word.

In your first sentence, I don’t think you actually mean “misogyny.” Misogyny is the hatred of women because they are women. It is manifested in many different ways, from jokes to pornography to violence to the self-contempt women may be taught to feel their own bodies. It’s a total disrespect for women.

Hatred, pornography, violence are all anti-Christian.

I really don’t know what the word would be, but I think you are looking for a word that reflect male self-respect, pride and culture (which you can have while still loving others including women, wives, mothers, sisters, children, etc).

I know it’s picking nits, but I think this clarification might head off some misunderstandings.

Perhaps it’s more like what they term male 'chauvinism" or ‘machismo?’ Kind of an elevation of 'studly manliness" to the nth power? Even though there is a perjorative connotation still the idea is more of an exaltation of the ‘male’ without really a ‘dismissal’ of the female. . .

 

[minkymurph]

Altar girls cause a misconception that females can or should be Deacons and Priests. It also pushes boys away who could be discerning to be a Deacon or Priest. OBVIOUSLY, female altar servers are an issue.

I appreciate it may be obvious to you. It’s not obvious to me as altar girls have never, to me, been an indication that women should be Deacons or Priests. Of course I can’t speak for anyone else’s misconceptions. In any case, no one should be a priest or deacon. I also don’t see how it pushes boys away as in my Parish, there’s not exactly an over abundance of altar servers. I couldn’t see a boy who wanted to be an altar server being told the places had all been filled by girls and he wasn’t needed. Maybe it happens in other Parishes.

The Catholic Church will NEVER ordain women. Jesus made the Church and no one will change it. As Catholic faithful we know not to debate the issue and to accept it as a permanent truth.

Well, never is a long time and nothing today would surprise me. However, given the Catholic understanding of sacramentality, I would agree with you as it would change the whole nature of the faith. I personally don’t have a problem with the fact that women can’t become priests and don’t see it as a big deal. One of the reasons being I feel I have a reasonable understanding why they don’t.

But we have many Unfaithful Catholics. Even Heretical Catholics. Children of the Devil who harm Jesus Christ by attacking His Body of faithful believers.

These devils need to be excommunicated from the Church so that they may be saved.

Who exactly are these ‘devils’ and on what grounds should they be excommunicated?

 

[Milesius]

This has been an interesting topic to say the least, but I felt the need to step in here before there was further misunderstanding over one word.

In your first sentence, I don’t think you actually mean “misogyny.” Misogyny is the hatred of women because they are women. It is manifested in many different ways, from jokes to pornography to violence to the self-contempt women may be taught to feel their own bodies. It’s a total disrespect for women.

Hatred, pornography, violence are all anti-Christian.

I really don’t know what the word would be, but I think you are looking for a word that reflect male self-respect, pride and culture (which you can have while still loving others including women, wives, mothers, sisters, children, etc).

I know it’s picking nits, but I think this clarification might head off some misunderstandings.

I assure you I do mean misogyny, a man must hate and reject what is feminine and separate himself from the feminine in order to achieve the differentiation necessary to become a man.

Once he has done that and developed his masculinity then he may learn again to love ONE woman and be joined together with ONE woman.

But he should not learn to love ALL women and nor would any woman in her right mind want her man to love all woman if she actually sat down and thought about it.

Such love in a man is destructive. From it the evils of fornication and adultery arise. Which again means everybody loses, especially women.

 

[minkymurph]

I assure you I do mean misogyny, a man must hate and reject what is feminine and separate himself from the feminine in order to achieve the differentiation necessary to become a man.

Once he has done that and developed his masculinity then he may learn again to love ONE woman and be joined together with ONE woman.

But he should not learn to love ALL women and nor would any woman in her right mind want her man to love all woman if she actually sat down and thought about it.

Such love in a man is destructive. From it the evils of fornication and adultery arise. Which again means everybody loses, especially women.

I have no objection to my husband loving all women; in the manner Jesus loved women and not carnally.

Of course if someone wants to argue men are not capable of that …

 

[minkymurph]

I have to say, in reading the posts on this thread I have been quite shocked by some of the sentiments expressed and the language used to express them.

I don’t want to single anyone out and I know this is an open discussion forum, but I have found some of posts quite disturbing.

I would love to be wrong about the some of the conclusions I am drawing concerning the intensions of some posters.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I appreciate it may be obvious to you. It’s not obvious to me as altar girls have never, to me, been an indication that women should be Deacons or Priests. Of course I can’t speak for anyone else’s misconceptions. In any case, no one should be a priest or deacon. ** I also don’t see how it pushes boys away** as in my Parish, there’s not exactly an over abundance of altar servers. I couldn’t see a boy who wanted to be an altar server being told the places had all been filled by girls and he wasn’t needed. Maybe it happens in other Parishes.

You do not see… I agree.

I cannot explain it to you. You either see or you do not.

 

[Milesius]

I have no objection to my husband loving all women; in the manner Jesus loved women and not carnally.

Of course if someone wants to argue men are not capable of that …

It’s not the same.

Jesus was united with the Father, he had no desire to be united with a woman, His love of the Father is what left Him free to love all women.

This same longing to be united with God is what makes priestly and monastic celibacy possible, the love of nothing but God, been consumed utterly by the love of God and the desire to be united with God drives out the natural desire to unite with a woman, and only then is it safe to love all women. Even then though such men do not love women for their own sake but rather for God. And even monastics do not put their love to the test by having mixed sex communities you will notice.

Most men do not have such a all consuming love of God. Most men have a drive to be united with a woman, this can be ONE woman who he loves exclusively or it can be ALL Women.

Because it is natural to man to desire to be united with that which he loves and the closest form of unity between a man and a woman is expressed in the marital act, if a man loves a woman there will be a part of him that desires to to enter into a physical union with her. If he loves a lot of women or even all women he will want to enter into physical union with them all, the physical expression is the major way in which man communicates his love.

We are not slaves to these desires but we certainly can make decisions that make things a lot easier or a lot harder for us to live the life we are called to live.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Well, **never is a long time **and nothing today would surprise me. However, given the Catholic understanding of sacramentality, I would agree with you as it would change the whole nature of the faith. I personally don’t have a problem with the fact that women can’t become priests and don’t see it as a big deal. One of the reasons being I feel I have a reasonable understanding why they don’t.

Yes, never is a long time. Jesus’ Church is forever and that too is a long time.

Women will NEVER be Deacons or Priests. That cannot be said enough.

 

[minkymurph]

Because it is natural to man to desire to be united with that which he loves and the closest form of unity between a man and a woman is expressed in the marital act, if a man loves a woman there will be a part of him that desires to to enter into a physical union with her. If he loves a lot of women or even all women he will want to enter into physical union with them all, the physical expression is the major way in which man communicates his love.

Well, there are those who say men are incapable of forming a platonic relationship with a woman, they are only after one thing …

 

[minkymurph]

You do not see… I agree.

I cannot explain it to you. You either see or you do not.

Ok, it’s more than possible you see something I don’t. However, I believe I stated why I didn’t see it. If someone has strong feelings in a certain direction, particularly in relation to their faith, they should be able to offer some sort of explanation.

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

Okay, so let me get this straight. You don’t agree with me and you can not counter my valid arguments which are backed up by Scripture and Catholic Tradition, so you:
a) advocate a censoring of my free speech
b) accuse me of being somebody that I have no clue as to who you are alluding to…but I guess if you sling some mud on me by accusing me of being that person, it may result in me being banned
c) advocate me being banned for no other reason than you disagree with my opinions
d) you are actually trying to convince others to join on the band wagon as well.

Wake up, The Church Militant is a very necessary for The Church. You want to feminize all of the men and have them believe we are wrong for supporting Tradition, then in the same breath you mock us and get onto us because we are not acting like real men. How can you be pleased?

No, Samantha…I think it’s a formally banned person…just take the underscores off and do an advanced search…and the other is just happy to have someone agree with him/her.

I’m not going to say anything to the mods…because I believe they really believe these things in the heart…I disagree…and they should have their say.

 

[GetToMass]

Yes, never is a long time. Jesus’ Church is forever and that too is a long time.

Women will NEVER be Deacons or Priests. That cannot be said enough.

I’m with Jack.

For those who think that some day there will be women Priests obviously choose not to listen to what the Magisterium of the Church teaches and are not aware of what a “Priest” **really **is or does. I would hope everyone here would agree that Jesus Christ was a MAN. When a priest offers the Sacrifice of the Mass the priest stands in the person of Christ, or (name removed by moderator)ersona christi (sp?)

A woman no matter how able of doing the actions of the priest is not a man. Again God created us for a specific purpose. A male who knows who he is does not want to be pregnant or give birth, and a woman who knows who she is does not want to be a priest.

A woman maybe ***able ***to be a priest but she is not ***capable ***of being a priest. Look up the definitions so you can see the difference.

Once the Catholic laity come to understand this again they will not want alter girls. Which is why many Catholics who know, study, and surrender to their faith see alter girls as a poor novelty at best. Surrendering to the teachings of the Catholic Church is surrendering oneself to Christ.

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

I hope you have better luck than me. I have been slandered and been accused of being the worst man in the world for supporting and advocating that view. I still do not know “who this other guy” is they are associating me with, but it is apparent they are willing to level any charge against me just to get me banned. They have no shame.

WWJD–What would Jesus Do? …I bet he wouldn’t falsely accuse somebody of something without proof of wrong doing and then promulgate His falsehoods and keep saying it over and over again until others believe Him. Why don’t you kindly read The Bible…the messages I am conveying are found in there. Perhaps your verson that you are reading left those out.

Once the Catholic laity come to understand this again they will not want alter girls. Which is why many Catholics who know, study, and surrender to their faith see alter girls as a poor novelty at best. Surrendering to the teachings of the Catholic Church is surrendering oneself to Christ.