Will Billy Graham go to heaven?

[TylerAlex]

I would suggest doing a little more research on what heresy is and entails. Is the heresy material or formal? Is it done in ignorance or is it freely willed? Were they catholics first who left? Read the sentence you bolded above. In order to return to catholic unity you must have been first part of that catholic unity.

In other words the reformers were catholic, part of the catholic unity, and were warned and went willingly and knowingly into formal heresy.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Nicene:

I am not an authority on heresy, that is why I posed it to people here. If you will also look, it states specifically that it involves schisms as well. Is not his ministry a schism?

If you believe Billy will make it, then simply help me understand how using apologetics to justify it.

Can someone who does great works get salvation without being part of the Catholic faith, adopting the sacriments, and cannot plead ignorance to the truth as we see it?

Thanks

 

[TylerAlex]

I think Billy Graham is model that Protestants should try to imitate. He is well respected Christian amongst us Catholic Christians.

If Protestants were more like him, Catholics and Protestants would be more united than divided.

I do believe that God alone can decide if he goes to heaven. If Billy Graham died in the state of grace, or in the righteous of God, he would be in heaven. I think he will base by his example.

Mannyfit75:

Can you expalin what you mean by a “state of grace” and “in the righteousness of God” as it may apply to Billy Graham.

You also say that you think it will be based by his example. I wrestle with that as well. That statements has elements of “if you are a good person, you will go to heaven.” Obviously, Billy was a great evangelist and lead many to Christ… but was that enough?

Do Christian leaders outside the Church (barring any ignorance claim) that do what appears to be fantastic works in bringing people to the Lord… without directly to the Catholic Church… have their salvation at risk?

I am truly ignorant here and I am appealing to those who have some certainty here to help me understand. I have listen to what appears to be wonderful persons of faith on the radio, like James Dobson and his ministry Focus on the Family, and I wonder if he would pass the test? The fruits appear to be there… but is that enough?

Thanks

 

[estesbob]

Well, if your asking, I would ask him if was willing to put his hope in Christ and if there was water available, I would offer to baptize him. If he was unconscious and there was water available, I would simply baptize him conditionally.

And again, we don’t believe we can work our way into Heaven. Baptism in some form is necessary, but it can be the baptism of desire (even implicit desire).

No one I know of believes you can work you way into heaven. That most certainly is not a teaching of the One True Church. I am curious as to where you get your beleifs? Previously you said that you got them though personal interperation by reading the bible alone. Now you talk about “we”. Did you depend on the interpertations of Scripture by others in arriving at your beliefs? By what authority did they interpert Scripture for you?

 

[mark_a]

No one I know of believes you can work you way into heaven. That most certainly is not a teaching of the One True Church. I am curious as to where you get your beleifs?

Probably not from the horse’s mouth. Maybe from the other end.

 

[mark_a]

You also say that you think it will be based by his example. I wrestle with that as well. That statements has elements of “if you are a good person, you will go to heaven.” Obviously, Billy was a great evangelist and lead many to Christ… but was that enough?

How much more could it possibly take?

Do Christian leaders outside the Church (barring any ignorance claim) that do what appears to be fantastic works in bringing people to the Lord… without directly to the Catholic Church… have their salvation at risk?

By barring any ignorance claim, we can assume they have a working knowledge of the Orthodox/Catholic teaching. Something, pride maybe, keeps them from accepting the Church. This scenario is what purgatory is for.

I have listen to what appears to be wonderful persons of faith on the radio, like James Dobson and his ministry Focus on the Family, and I wonder if he would pass the test? The fruits appear to be there… but is that enough?

If these guys can’t get to heaven, what hope is there for you and me?

Or has God predestined some of these wonderful men to burn?

 

[mark_a]

No one I know of believes you can work you way into heaven. That most certainly is not a teaching of the One True Church. I am curious as to where you get your beleifs?

Probably not from the horse’s mouth. Maybe from the other end.

 

[TylerAlex]

How much more could it possibly take?

… If these guys can’t get to heaven, what hope is there for you and me?

Interesting question. That is why I posed this argument. Here is what the Catechism states:

"However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity."

I reference the page on the C.A. site that lists a number of decress issued by Popes over time on this very subject matter.

catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

Here is one in particular:

Fulgentius of Ruspe

"Anyone who receives the sacrament of baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic one, receives the whole sacrament; but salvation, which is the strength of the sacrament, he will not have, if he has had the sacrament outside the Catholic Church [and remains in deliberate schism]. He must therefore return to the Church, not so that he might receive again the sacrament of baptism, which no one dare repeat in any baptized person, but so that he may receive eternal life in Catholic society, for the obtaining of which no one is suited who, even with the sacrament of baptism, remains estranged from the Catholic Church" (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

Tell me… do you think they pass the test (barring no claim to ignorance)?

 

[Ahimsa]

Or has God predestined some of these wonderful men to burn?

Some people seem to think so.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Mannyfit75:

Can you expalin what you mean by a “state of grace” and “in the righteousness of God” as it may apply to Billy Graham.

State of grace, free of sin. Righteous of God is the same meaning. One can gain the state of grace through repentance, and confession.

Since I am not God, I am not the one who judges who can go to heaven, or go to hell. God decide that. He can judge a man by what is written is his heart, and what deeds he has done on earth.

 

[Mom_of_5]

My dear grandmother loved to hear Billy Graham preach. she knew her Catholic religion better than most, read the bible every day and never missed Mass for any reason. She believed that Billy Graham brought many people to Jesus through his preaching.and that he was a very holy man. A student of the bible, she told me that God’s church is the people who believe in Jesus and live a life according to His teachings.

Of course, this was 50 years ago that this little woman taught me to be considerate of other faiths, but time does not change the truth. I would rather have non-Catholic friends who truly live their faith than Catholics who put on the cloak of piety and run around telling others they must belong to “the church”. We do not know who will or will not be in heaven…but I think that if I were Billy Graham I would “likely” go to heaven when I die.

If we live the very best life possible, love God and our neighbor, then there should be no fear of going to hell for anyone of any religion.

Love and peace
Mom of 5

 

[JWilson]

Thank-you mom of 5!! I think you said it well.In all due respect to the church,“the church” is not what saves you.I can go to mass every day twice a day and never make it to heaven.Just as I can read the Bible and do great works every day and still not make it.God looks at the heart and knows your love for Him.

 

[scylla]

Thank-you mom of 5!! I think you said it well.In all due respect to the church,“the church” is not what saves you.I can go to mass every day twice a day and never make it to heaven.Just as I can read the Bible and do great works every day and still not make it.God looks at the heart and knows your love for Him.

Amen, this is Catholic belief.
By the way you respond it looks like someone has taught you a whole bunch of lies about the Catholic Church.

Catholics do not think the Church saves you,
This is a common slander which has no basis in fact but in a misrepresentation of what Catholics believe.​

Here is an example…
Like this Catholic statement,
Jesus saves, Jesus founded the Church, you should do God’s will and be baptized repent and follow Jesus.
Response
You don’t need the Church, only Jesus saves not baptism, you are trying to work your way into heaven, by thinking doing God’s will earns your way into heaven.​

See why Catholics object, the way people reject the Catholic Church is by misrepresentation of Catholic belief. I encourage you to spend more time on these boards and ask questions to clear up the obvious misrepresentation people have given you about the Catholic faith.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[JWilson]

I am somewhat familiar with what the catholic church beliefs as I did attend catholic schools for year.You can hold on to that belief.I believe that if you never saw a day of church in your life you can still go to heaven.There are in fact many who died never seeing the inside of a church and could be in heaven.I think the catholics place a lot of emphasis on the church more than the scripture “by faith you have been saved through grace”.I have known many good christian catholics but too many of them are too concerned with following the church rules.I know a woman who does everything possible catholic thing and yet I doubt her faith in Jesus.In my school I saw many practicing catholics who really had no faith in God.It was all practice and very sad to see might I add.

 

[carol_marie]

.I know a woman who does everything possible catholic thing and yet **I doubt her faith in Jesus.**In my school I saw many practicing catholics who really had no faith in God.It was all practice and very sad to see might I add.

You said she “does every Catholic thing” so I assume she goes to Church where Jesus is prayed to, worshiped, received in the Eucharist. I also assume she’s a good person, because that would fall in line with doing everything Catholic possible?

What makes you doubt her faith in Jesus?

 

[JWilson]

Carol,

I just don’t see the love of God in her.It says somewhere in the Bible that we’ll know they are christians by their love right?She can be quite nasty when talking about people.I may be wrong carol that’s why I really shouldn’t judge her.God will judge.

 

[mark_a]

Tell me… do you think they pass the test (barring no claim to ignorance)?

Yes.

Jesus message was simple enough as shown by the two great commandments. We all fall short whether its pride or superiority or whatever.

This is where purgatory makes so much sense. It is ridiculous to think that the instant I, sinner that I am, die I’ll be rubbing elbows with Billy Graham or any of the other great Saints.

As an aside- I was reading one of the anti-Catholic fundie spews about Rev Graham. It, in order to show how misguided they think Rev Graham is, quoted JPII insisting to Graham that “we are brothers”, and Graham’s acceptance of the pope.

Christian unification cannot be the responsibility of only the pope and Catholics. Billy Graham has led the unity battle from the Protestant side.

And a tip of the hat to people like Jay Seculo for being inclusive toward Catholics in his battles in the legal system.

 

[Redbandito]

JKirk,
protestants don’t (or shouldn’t say) that you are saved without works and baptism.It is by faith you have been saved thru faith,it is not of your own doing but a free gift of God.The guy on the cross was aved by this.
If you were on your deathbed would you have time to do good works or get baptized?No you wouldn’t.The guy on the cross beside Jesus shows us that you can be saved as long as you have breathe.What would you tell a man who is dying and never acknowledged Jesus as his Lord?You’re not gonna make it to heaven buddy,you haven’t done anything good and you’re not baptized?Please explain what you would say to such a person?

JW, for starters, you are incorrect that Protestants “don’t say that you are saved without works and baptism.” I have posted on this site for a couple of years and have heard this claim many times. What must be understood is that there is no one Protestant consensus on what “faith alone” entails. Some literally believe it means “intellectual assent alone,” while some believe faith must be accompanied by “trust, repentance, etc.” Thus, while I agree with you that Protestants “shouldn’t say” that, it is quite clear that many do anyways. Furthermore, many do so because it is the proper teaching of their denomination.

And as your continued point about the thief, we all agree with you. He was saved by grace alone, through faith. His faith in no way merited this grace, because nothing with finite value could merit an infinite reward, and our faith is finite despite being the gift of God. Thus, the grace received was not a strict payment for the man’s faith, but rather a reward for hearing God’s promise and heeding (Decree on Justification, 8). If you are saying that, I have no problem with your point.

As for what I would tell a dying man about the state of his soul, nothing! How could I possibly know. I might share the Gospel with him. I might ask him to believe unto the Lord Jesus. If he would, I would attempt to have a priest offer him the sacraments if it was possible. If that wasn’t possible, I would attempt to baptize him myself. I would then ask for God’s mercy and trust it it. It’s that simple. Yet, it would not be my place to judge him as eternally damned, but rather God’s place.

Finally, to reiterate, the thief was an extraordinary case. The normative means for receiving are rebirth is through baptism, as the Scripture points out quite clearly. Thus, I would expect that had the thief been able to, he would have received baptism for rebirth like the rest of Christians of his time and afterward.

Furthermore, God created the sacraments to save man, not man for the sacraments. Thus, God is not obligated to save man via the sacraments. Rather, He has chosen to by His manifest will. Thus, in such extreme cases, we can trust that in God’s mercy and that the fact that this man did not receive the sacraments, and was not able to go live his supernatural grace of charity, that God can still save this man if He so chooses. But in no way, can I intentionally resist God’s grace through the sacraments and in charity and wish to remain in His grace. That is an oxymoron. I hope that clarifies.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

No one I know of believes you can work you way into heaven. That most certainly is not a teaching of the One True Church. I am curious as to where you get your beleifs? Previously you said that you got them though personal interperation by reading the bible alone. Now you talk about “we”. Did you depend on the interpertations of Scripture by others in arriving at your beliefs? By what authority did they interpert Scripture for you?

Estesbob: In post #82, you quote me, but you seem to be addressing JWilson (at least I hope so). If you’re addressing me, I’m not a Sola Scriptura-ist. I believe the Church alone has the final right to definitively interpret Holy Writ. I get my personal beliefs from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church!

 

[mercygate]

Thank-you mom of 5!! I think you said it well.In all due respect to the church,“the church” is not what saves you.I can go to mass every day twice a day and never make it to heaven.Just as I can read the Bible and do great works every day and still not make it.God looks at the heart and knows your love for Him.

There is a way in which even a Protestant can understand that the Church plays a key role in salvation. We know from Scripture that “baptism now saves you.” It is the covenant act of baptism that incorporates us into the Church. Therefore, without the Church, there can be no ordinary path to salvation.

 

[Ignatius]

Tyler,
As far as you’re concerned anyone outside the Catholic church teaching is going to hell so that goes for evangelicals.Hold on to your Catholic teaching as you wish .

My dear broth JW, the Catholic Church does not teach that non-Catholics will all go to hell. You need to do some homework, my friend.

May the grace of Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Your brother in Christ.