Will Billy Graham go to heaven?

[estesbob]

Estesbob: In post #82, you quote me, but you seem to be addressing JWilson (at least I hope so). If you’re addressing me, I’m not a Sola Scriptura-ist. I believe the Church alone has the final right to definitively interpret Holy Writ. I get my personal beliefs from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church!

Sorry-I meant to adress that to JWilson. it appears you and i are in total agreement.

 

[JWilson]

Red Bandito,

I do agree with you on many of your points.You seem well eduacated and I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.I will differ in saying that I (a protestant) do not believe works and baptism will save a person.It is by God’s grace and a true faith in Jesus and what He did for us.

 

[Redbandito]

Or has God predestined some of these wonderful men to burn?

This refers to double predestination, which the Church rejects. The Synod of Orange is clear: “We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.” (Also, see Ludwif Ott- ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM). Maybe you did not mean to say this, but we must be careful not to teach error on these boards. God bless.

 

[JWilson]

Estesbob,

My authority is in God and Him alone.If a ‘man’ puts his trust in God and is also under Hid authority then I will listen to him.If that’s a pastor,priest or teacher I will listen but if the authority is strictly of the church with nothing Bible based and not of God’s authority I will not listen because then i would be obeying man.

 

[TylerAlex]

Yes.

Jesus message was simple enough as shown by the two great commandments. We all fall short whether its pride or superiority or whatever.

Thank you Mark A. Can you, and the others on this board, justify your “yes” with anything apologetic other than what you feel. Please do not misconstrue my intentions of asking, I am only looking for clarity and not doubting anyone’s feelings of charity or sincerity.

It just seems to me after reviewing what the Catechism states on salvation, and the link here off of the CA website DeFide linked, that the Church and the past Popes are clear on the absence of salvation for heretics and those that represent schisims. There is certainty in their language I find hard to just ignore.

I understand about God being the final judge, but the Popes and their authority make it seemingly clear. Absent of Baptism by Desire or Ignorance, which both my examples are clearly not, then is it possible to make that claim that salvation is likely at hand for them?

My heart wants to say yes… I am just looking for Catholic apologetic confirmation so that I have more certainty. If it is then true that salvation comes to people like James Dobson and Billy Graham- without conversion, repentence, etc… then, can it also bring good news for our other Christian brothers and sisters that we fellowship and cross paths with on our journey?

Your thoughts please.

 

[estesbob]

Estesbob,

My authority is in God and Him alone.If a ‘man’ puts his trust in God and is also under Hid authority then I will listen to him.If that’s a pastor,priest or teacher I will listen but if the authority is strictly of the church with nothing Bible based and not of God’s authority I will not listen because then i would be obeying man.

Well if your truly believe this you should join the Catholic Church. Nothing the Church teaches is contrary to scripture but much of what you beleive is. The interpertations of scripture you rely were unheard of for the first 1,500 years after Christ died for us. To beleive as you do one must beleive Christ let his people live in grave error for 1,500 years condemning millions of people to eternal damantion. How does that jibe with the Bible? By your reckoning Augusitne, Aquinas, Leo, Hillary, et all are burning in hell because God waited 1,500 years to reveal the truth. How can this be?

 

[Redbandito]

Red Bandito,

I do agree with you on many of your points.You seem well eduacated and I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.I will differ in saying that I (a protestant) do not believe works and baptism will save a person.It is by God’s grace and a true faith in Jesus and what He did for us.

Thank you JW. I will also agree that it is by God’s grace through faith that we are saved, as the Scripture points out very clearly. Yet, the way this grace is received is also pointed out very clearly in Scripture.

"In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.a]" “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!” 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit" (Jn 3:5).

And:
"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life" (Rom 6:4).

And:
"He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Tit 3:5).

And:
"God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledgee] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you BY the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet 3:20-21).

Thus, as we see the Scripture teaches that God’s grace of regeneration or rebirth is imparted THROUGH baptism. This baptismal grace is only effective because of the death and “resurrection fo Jesus Christ.” Thus, Catholics don’t disagree that it is by grace alone we are saved. We just differ on how exactly that grace is imparted to us.

And finally, Catholics agree that “works cannot save us.” The official teaching of the Catholic Church is: “If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ;* let him be anathema*” (Council of Trent, Decrees on Justification, Canon I).

God Bless!

 

[Redbandito]

Estesbob,

My authority is in God and Him alone.If a ‘man’ puts his trust in God and is also under Hid authority then I will listen to him.If that’s a pastor,priest or teacher I will listen but if the authority is strictly of the church with nothing Bible based and not of God’s authority I will not listen because then i would be obeying man.

Amen! Catholics would disobey God’s command to not hold onto the “traditions of men.” Yet, the Catholic claim is not that we follow the “traditions of men,” but rather the teachings of Christ passed on through His apostles by, “word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess 2:15). We call this “Apostolic Tradition.” The Catholic teaching on this is either right or wrong. However, don’t be confused about the position Catholics take. We do not claim to follow the man’s word over God’s Word. Rather, we believe, as St. Paul teaches, **“And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe” **(1 Thess 2:13).

 

[Redbandito]

Thank-you mom of 5!! I think you said it well.In all due respect to the church,“the church” is not what saves you.I can go to mass every day twice a day and never make it to heaven.Just as I can read the Bible and do great works every day and still not make it.God looks at the heart and knows your love for Him.

Yet, if our heart is right with God, we WILL DO works through God’s grace. You are correct though, it is not merely going through the motions that get us to Heaven. We cannot obligate God in a strict sense to pay us for our work. Yet, God rewards those who please Him.

 

[DeFide]

…
It just seems to me after reviewing what the Catechism states on salvation, and the link here off of the CA website DeFide linked, that the Church and the past Popes are clear on the absence of salvation for heretics and those that represent schisims. There is certainty in their language I find hard to just ignore.

…

Heretics can be either material heretics, because they hold to heresy innocently, or formal heretics because they hold to heresy culpably.

One is sinful, the other is not. Does that help? The Church teaches that sin is voluntary. You cannot fall into sin by accident. Teaching on the damnation of heretics assumes a certain level of culpability.

From the Catechism:

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

 

[scylla]

I am somewhat familiar with what the catholic church beliefs as I did attend catholic schools for year.You can hold on to that belief.I believe that if you never saw a day of church in your life you can still go to heaven.There are in fact many who died never seeing the inside of a church and could be in heaven.I think the catholics place a lot of emphasis on the church more than the scripture “by faith you have been saved through grace”.I have known many good christian catholics but too many of them are too concerned with following the church rules.I know a woman who does everything possible catholic thing and yet I doubt her faith in Jesus.In my school I saw many practicing catholics who really had no faith in God.It was all practice and very sad to see might I add.

I believe you have had some experience with Catholics, but by your statements which do not reflect Catholic belief this alone proves a huge misunderstanding of Catholicism.

If we agreed with you then it would prove that you indeed understand Catholicism, but we disagree. So the Catholicism you believe exists is but a caricature so essentially a misunderstanding.

Does it really matter what Catholics do? Even if every Catholic on earth was a lier, this proves absolutely nothing about Catholic belief, unless Catholic belief said that lying was an essential practice of the faith.
Just because there might be 100 Jehovahs Witnesses in town who go door to door sharing their belief does that prove JW’s correct.
Your personal experience or opinion does not determine truth, truth determines what is valid or invalid. Individual expression just displays a persons adherence or disobedience to their claimed beliefs.
(this is just an example, please just rationally think about this)
Even talking to you, if you hate me does that mean that hate is a Christian practice?

Belief, practice, example, these are personal expressions which do not determine truth.

God Bless,
Scylla

 

[Maranatha]

I am somewhat familiar with what the catholic church beliefs as I did attend catholic schools for year.You can hold on to that belief.I believe that if you never saw a day of church in your life you can still go to heaven.There are in fact many who died never seeing the inside of a church and could be in heaven.I think the catholics place a lot of emphasis on the church more than the scripture “by faith you have been saved through grace”.I have known many good christian catholics but too many of them are too concerned with following the church rules.I know a woman who does everything possible catholic thing and yet I doubt her faith in Jesus.In my school I saw many practicing catholics who really had no faith in God.It was all practice and very sad to see might I add.

JW,

How do you interpret (KJV) Mt 25:31-46:

31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Doesn’t it seem that in this passage Jesus is saying we must do work though love?

 

[JWilson]

Maranatha,

I couldn’t agree with you more.It seems to me this is the exact scripture that Mother Theresa lived her life by and I always admired that about her because it is not always an easy thing to do.She once said that every face she sees is to her the face of Jesus so how could she possibly refuse to show love them.I don’t meet many people who show that kind of love to all around them.

 

[Maranatha]

Maranatha,

I couldn’t agree with you more.It seems to me this is the exact scripture that Mother Theresa lived her life by and I always admired that about her because it is not always an easy thing to do.She once said that every face she sees is to her the face of Jesus so how could she possibly refuse to show love them.I don’t meet many people who show that kind of love to all around them.

How you you square that passage with the belief that we are saved by faith alone?

 

[JWilson]

Bandito,

I agree that if out heart is right with God that we will want to live for Him,love Him and serve Him.I’ve often been asked the question "can you continue to live in difference to God’s word even though you say you are a christian?"If you truly are living for God you won’t want to sin any more and when you do the Holy Spirit will convict you of that sin.Ever notice people ask for forgiveness for something and then commit the same sin again the next day or even within the next hour?If that person has a desire to serve God he/she will feel guilt about that sin and want to confess it again.All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.If your heart is not with God you can sin and feel no guilt about it.I hate to sin but I know my flesh is week and know that Jesus died for that very reason.I couldn’t possibly make it heaven based strictly on my works alone.I think we agree on that?

 

[JWilson]

Maranatha,

Eph 2:8,9 says, for by grace you have been saved through faith,and that not of yourselves,it is the gift of God,not of works lest anyone should boast.

This is why I believe we can be saved by faith alone.I’m not saying that you shouldn’t do good works as well but the good works is not what saves you.this is why I refer to the guy on the cross beside Jesus.His faith saved him but only by God’s grace was that made possible.

 

[JWilson]

You are saying it is the combination of faith and works but as I said before,a dying man who has hours to live wouldn’t have the chance to see heaven under that rule.The guy on the cross beside Jesus was no exception to what everyone else is entitled to.If you have faith in Him you will want to do good works of course and obey Him and not go live your life as you please.

 

[Redbandito]

You are saying it is the combination of faith and works but as I said before,a dying man who has hours to live wouldn’t have the chance to see heaven under that rule.The guy on the cross beside Jesus was no exception to what everyone else is entitled to.If you have faith in Him you will want to do good works of course and obey Him and not go live your life as you please.

That’s basically true. I don’t disagree with this post for the most part. However, if one does “have faith in Him” and chooses not to do good works and obey Him, what is the consequence?

 

[Redbandito]

Bandito,

I agree that if out heart is right with God that we will want to live for Him,love Him and serve Him.I’ve often been asked the question "can you continue to live in difference to God’s word even though you say you are a christian?"If you truly are living for God you won’t want to sin any more and when you do the Holy Spirit will convict you of that sin.Ever notice people ask for forgiveness for something and then commit the same sin again the next day or even within the next hour?If that person has a desire to serve God he/she will feel guilt about that sin and want to confess it again.All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.If your heart is not with God you can sin and feel no guilt about it.I hate to sin but I know my flesh is week and know that Jesus died for that very reason.I couldn’t possibly make it heaven based strictly on my works alone.I think we agree on that?

Absolutely I agree with your final question. I could never get to Heaven based on a strict payment for my works period. No question about that.

As far as repenting for the same sin over and over again, I also agree. No person is in Hell for mortal sin. They are only in Hell for unrepented mortal sin. Anyone who has contrition for their sins and repents will be forgiven.

 

[JWilson]

Bandito,

I can not give you a definate answer for that question.I hear what you’re saying and I know of a some people who claim to have a faith in God yet they smoke,gamble,drink,swear,rob banks etc and do nothing good for the kingdom of heaven.I am not to judge but with my own eyes I certainly don’t see genuine love for God.Will they see heaven?I don’t think so but I don’t know so either.I believe that a true follower of Jesus will want to stop doing those things I mentioned and do what Jesus taught.