Will Billy Graham go to heaven?

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You seem to make all kinds of accusations against protestants but really it comes right back at ya.You feel you have it all right as do we and this is why the fighting continues.I think the figting should stop.This website seems to be packed with all kinds of critisism of the protestant church.We actually next to never discuss the catholics amongst us.You seem tothink you’re on the winning team when really we should be all together for the same cause.God bless you all
You sound like Benedict XVI! 👍

We have secularism and religious fanaticism chompin’ at our backside, and we should be joining forces for Christ!

That said, doctrine IS important. I think where Catholics get tetchy is that so many fundmentalist types outright lie about what we believe, sometimes out of ignorance, and often – really often – out of blind malice.

Did you know that we worship Mary? Have to go through a MAN to reach Christ? Pray to statues? And don’t forget the winner, Jack T. Chick’s extreme “death cookie.” Many of us have relatives who come at us with this stuff.

Sometimes we ASSUME that an honest question, “why do you call your priests father when the Bible says ‘call no man father’?” is just another grenade.

Anyway, this thread is about Billy. We could use more of his spirit around here.
 
Explain “seperated brethren” for me please, and help me understand how it applies here specifically?
Separated brethren are those who confess the name of Jesus and believe in him but who are separated from us by affiliation with Protestant denominations. They are called separated brethren rather than outright heretics because they were NEVER Catholic. Thus their heresy is “material” – they believe material that is not Catholic – but their heresy is not “formal” – i.e., they have never been Catholic and *formally *rejected Catholic teaching and authority.

It applies here because Billy Graham, a “material heretic” is also a great witness for Jesus Christ to the world.
 
Separated brethren are those who confess the name of Jesus and believe in him but who are separated from us by affiliation with Protestant denominations. They are called separated brethren rather than outright heretics because they were NEVER Catholic. Thus their heresy is “material” – they believe material that is not Catholic – but their heresy is not “formal” – i.e., they have never been Catholic and *formally *rejected Catholic teaching and authority.

It applies here because Billy Graham, a “material heretic” is also a great witness for Jesus Christ to the world.
Alright… where do we find that definition of “formal” heresy? Also, do you have to be Catholic at one time AND reject Catholic teaching and authority to qualify for formal heresy?

Perhaps a better, more authoritative definition of what “rejecting Catholic teaching and authority” needs to be made.

Let’s say you are correct… what are the implications then for material heresy?

Would his ministry qualify as a schism?
 
You came her and expressed your belief in false Doctrines. Are we not required to proclaim the truth,

Btw:

Personally i would still like to know why you believe God let his people live in error for 1,500 years after the death of his Son. Why he allowed millions of people to suffer eternal damnation becuase he decided to wait 1,500 years to reveal the truth?
I do believe that the Catholic church is the one true church of God, and there is alot of wisdom in such a claim. But to say it was only the Catholic Church for 1500 years is not true. Through out every century there has always been non-Catholic Christians. They may not have the same names today (Arianism, Gnostics, etc.) but there are still traces of their beliefs found among other Christians today.

God bless
 
I do believe that the Catholic church is the one true church of God, and there is alot of wisdom in such a claim. But to say it was only the Catholic Church for 1500 years is not true. Through out every century there has always been non-Catholic Christians. They may not have the same names today (Arianism, Gnostics, etc.) but there are still traces of their beliefs found among other Christians today.

God bless
Not a one of whom beleived in Sola Fidelis or Sola Scrpitura. Both of the heresies you mention had died out by the 6 Century. Can you provide us with other non-Catholic Christians during these 1,500 years(other than the great schism)?
 
Alright… where do we find that definition of “formal” heresy? Also, do you have to be Catholic at one time AND reject Catholic teaching and authority to qualify for formal heresy?
Perhaps a better, more authoritative definition of what “rejecting Catholic teaching and authority” needs to be made.

Let’s say you are correct… what are the implications then for material heresy?

Would his ministry qualify as a schism?
Try this.
 
What do we know? We do know that Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin will go to hell. We do know that it is possible for a non-Catholic to die in that state.

We do know that someone can return to a state of grace by either the sacrament of Reconciliation or by perfect contrition.

We don’t know if there are other ways that a person could return to a state of grace–God works through the sacraments but is not limited by them.

We do know that salvation outside the Catholic Church is impossible–however people who are not formally members of the Catholic Church may be united to it in baptism.

Is Billy Graham one of those pople? We do not know. If he was truely bapatized as a christian using the Trinitarian formula then he is united to the CatholicChurch through baptism even though he may not know it.

His fate will revolve around whether he dies in a state of mortal sin or not.

How difficult is it to not mortally sin after baptism ? It is very difficult.

How difficult is it to be perfectly contrite for such mortal sins so that one is restored to a state of grace? You will find many different answers for this question–but it is not an easy thing to be 100% perfectly contrited for one’s sins–that’s why Jesus gave us the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

What are the chances that Jesus might work outside the Sacrament of Reconciliation or outside of Perfedcty Contrition to restore someone to a state of grace?

That we do not know–only God knows–all we know is whatever God does is right.

We do not that Jesus said that the road to eternal life is Narrow and Few there are that find it. Is Billy Graham one of the Few. We do not know?

Has Billy graham ever Resisted the Holy Spirit drawing him to the Catholic Faith? That we do not know but we do know that resistance to the Holy Spirit is blaspehmy against the holy Spirit and will not be forgiven in the world or the next.

Bottom line of all of this: We do not know about Billy Graham’s salvation or even our own but we do know that the Surest way to salvation is through the Catholic Church!

If Billy Graham never formaly joins the Catholic Church let’s all pray that he is informmally united to it and that he doesn’t die in a state of mortal sin.

That should be our prayer for everyone.
 
What do we know? We do know that Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin will go to hell. We do know that it is possible for a non-Catholic to die in that state.

We do know that someone can return to a state of grace by either the sacrament of Reconciliation or by perfect contrition.

We don’t know if there are other ways that a person could return to a state of grace–God works through the sacraments but is not limited by them.

We do know that salvation outside the Catholic Church is impossible–however people who are not formally members of the Catholic Church may be united to it in baptism.

Is Billy Graham one of those pople? We do not know. If he was truely bapatized as a christian using the Trinitarian formula then he is united to the CatholicChurch through baptism even though he may not know it.

His fate will revolve around whether he dies in a state of mortal sin or not.

How difficult is it to not mortally sin after baptism ? It is very difficult.

How difficult is it to be perfectly contrite for such mortal sins so that one is restored to a state of grace? You will find many different answers for this question–but it is not an easy thing to be 100% perfectly contrited for one’s sins–that’s why Jesus gave us the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

What are the chances that Jesus might work outside the Sacrament of Reconciliation or outside of Perfedcty Contrition to restore someone to a state of grace?

That we do not know–only God knows–all we know is whatever God does is right.

We do not that Jesus said that the road to eternal life is Narrow and Few there are that find it. Is Billy Graham one of the Few. We do not know?

Has Billy graham ever Resisted the Holy Spirit drawing him to the Catholic Faith? That we do not know but we do know that resistance to the Holy Spirit is blaspehmy against the holy Spirit and will not be forgiven in the world or the next.

Bottom line of all of this: We do not know about Billy Graham’s salvation or even our own but we do know that the Surest way to salvation is through the Catholic Church!

If Billy Graham never formaly joins the Catholic Church let’s all pray that he is informmally united to it and that he doesn’t die in a state of mortal sin.

That should be our prayer for everyone.
When you think about it though… doesn’t it seem ironic that one of history’s greatest evangelists has a likely shot of NOT achieving salvation according to what you said above?

That is why this question, I believe, is so intriguing. There is a strong likelihood that one could do some of the greatest works in Christ’s name, but be far from salvation because of their separation from the Catholic Church (absent Baptism of Desire or Ignorance).

Don’t you find that quite remarkable?
 
When you think about it though… doesn’t it seem ironic that one of history’s greatest evangelists has a likely shot of NOT achieving salvation according to what you said above?

That is why this question, I believe, is so intriguing. There is a strong likelihood that one could do some of the greatest works in Christ’s name, but be far from salvation because of their separation from the Catholic Church (absent Baptism of Desire or Ignorance).

Don’t you find that quite remarkable?
Mt. 7:21-23
"Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you.

I’m not saying that Billy hasn’t done the will of the Father, just noting that doing mighty works in his name is not a guarantee. Ultimately, we simplly trust in God. Legal negotiating over who will make it is not our job. Love him. Only love him.
 
As I answered earlier, the Catholic Church does not teach that Billy, or any other person, will not be able to attain his salvation, nor does it teach he will absolutely be saved. There is nothing in Catholic teaching which says, in context, that he or anyone else is doomed or saved. So the answer to your question is there is reason to pray for his salvation. There is reason to hope for his salvation. There is reason to be concerned for his salvation. Let’s all pray for his salvation.
 
Before Vatican I he was a heretic and would have gone to hell.
Now he is part of the “seperated brethren” and will eventually go to heaven.
Kaycee, that’s bologna. Quit trying to play the expert on the Catholic doctrine here. Only those who did not understand the doctrine of “There is no salvation outside of the Church” would have said that.
 
Bandito,

I agree with you on so many levels and even if I don’t I can understand or try to understand where you’re coming from.I am a protestant and I enjoy chatting with Catholics because they can show me things I’ve maybe never questioned before and just accepted because I grew up with a certain teaching.Itreally bothers me when catholics and protestants fight eachother and as we hear in Ireland they kill eachother.Very sad it is.I wish to promote peace and love to my fellow catholics such as yourself.Like racism,it can keep getting worse if people keep feeding the fire.
Amen! Keep up the good work Brother. I will pray for you, and I ask for your prayers as well. I also agree that we need to open the door to dialogue. Those who discourage dialogue, or intentionally are antagonistic, are doing Our Lord a great injustice. He prayed for our unity. Divisiveness is certainly not His will for us.
 
JWilson:
The Church teaches that justification is by grace through faith and works. Sola fide (faith alone) is rejected by the Church as heresy, but sola gracia (grace alone) is upheld as sound teaching. We must realize that neither faith nor works can save us. All the faith in the world would be nothing, without grace. Likewise, all the works under the sun would be like filthy rags without grace. This is where the distinction must be made. Both faith and works are worthless if they do not flow from God’s grace. Our salvation is only made possible because Christ took our eternal penalty on the tree at Calvary; however, this perfect work of Christ must be applied to each of us. God has given us freewill, so we must accept this gift and co-operate with him. Not just once (the moment you accept Christ), but all through our lives. Catholics can say that we merit salvation, but only in a secondary and derivative sense. The grace that Christ gives us leads to faith. This grace-empowered faith leads to works. The two go hand in hand. Our faith and works become our way of co-operating with God’s plan for our salvation, and become worthy of merit before God because Christ’s merit is applied to us through his grace. The faith and works in and of themselves are nothing, but when they flow from the grace Christ has given us, they become creditable.

One thing that really hit home for me was the realization that even the Evangelical position requires human effort to obtain salvation. If we are to say that there is nothing we can do to be saved, then logically, all human beings should be saved automatically…as Christ’s grace would be universally applied; however, we know that this is not the case. Even in the Evangelical view, one must make an conscious act of the will, exert a mental effort, to decide to accept Christ and to repent of one’s sins. In a sense, this is a work, as it is an act of the will, and takes effort on our part. But this is only made possible by grace in the first place (remember, the Father must draw us to His Son before we can accept Him), so we can not take credit for it, even though our effort was involved. So once you realize that even the Evangelical view requires human effort, it falls into place (at least for me) that works, those that are the fruit of the grace God has given us, can also play a role in our part in salvation.

If you are to say that salvation involves no effort on our part, then even personal repentance should be unnecessary. Every step of the way, we must choose to continue to co-operate with God, or to reject His grace. We should not be terrified, however, for we trust that God will always provide us with the grace necessary to persevere…

There are some key passages to consider:
Matthew 24:45-51 (Note that the wicked slave is still a servant of the Master…a Christian…he is cast out because he mistreats his fellow servants).
Matthew 25 (all of it! We have here three parables. All concern salvation and the final judgement. All clearly teach that good works are necessary for salvation. Why do the “sheep” enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Christ doesn’t say: because they believed in me…he says they fed him, gave him water to drink, clothed him, etc).
Mark 4:1-20
Luke 8:4-15 (The parable of the sower again)
Luke 12:35-48 (Again, clearly the wicked slave is a Christian…he knows that the master will come, and that he serves the master…but he is thrown out because of his wicked deeds. The righteous servant is rewarded for his good works).
Luke 13:6-9 (The tree is clearly a Christian…it is in the Master’s vinyard. He will shower it with grace…the fertilizer mentioned. But if it refuses this grace, and contines to remain bare, the Master will cut the tree down).
Luke 19:11-27 (The servants, or Christians, are given various amounts of money. The servant who does nothing with his money is cast out—damned…the servants who earn more money are rewarded).
John 15:1-17 (This is a great passage. We must remain on the vine, the source of grace…Christ. If we do not produce fruit, the natural outcome of the grace we receive from the vine, we are cut off, and damned. This lack of growth is a rejection of grace).
There are so many more, but this is a good start.

To learn more about the Catholic Faith from a Biblical perspective, I highly recommend David Armstrong’s A Biblical Defense of Catholicism. His website can be found here: socrates58.blogspot.com/. Or David Currie’s Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, or Scott Hahn’s Rome Sweet Home.
In Christ with love,
Tyler
 
I can’t believe the title of this thread, and I can’t believe there is debate on this point.

That’s kinda like saying will Mother Theresa or Pope JP be in heaven.

Google “Billy Graham Catholic” and you will find you are not the only ones questioning this.

OK. I suppose there is a 0.0001 percent chance that we are all wrong and he is another Jim Bakker/Ted Haggart/Jimmy Swaggart type. I put the odds that low because if he were, God would have exposed him before he hit 80 something.

Besides I have not seen one shred of credible evidence of reproach on his character.

But other than that 0.0001 percent chance, there should be no debate.

If Billy Graham is not in heaven, heaven will be a very, very lonely place.
 
I can’t believe the title of this thread, and I can’t believe there is debate on this point.

That’s kinda like saying will Mother Theresa or Pope JP be in heaven.

Google “Billy Graham Catholic” and you will find you are not the only ones questioning this.

OK. I suppose there is a 0.0001 percent chance that we are all wrong and he is another Jim Bakker/Ted Haggart/Jimmy Swaggart type. I put the odds that low because if he were, God would have exposed him before he hit 80 something.

Besides I have not seen one shred of credible evidence of reproach on his character.

But other than that 0.0001 percent chance, there should be no debate.

If Billy Graham is not in heaven, heaven will be a very, very lonely place.
Hey Mozart, I agree to a certain point. Just remember that this is a Catholic board, and while the Church believes salvation is open to our “Separated Brethren,” it is not guaranteed (nor to any of us). Nor do Catholics, from a doctrinal perspective, believe anyone can have an absolute assurance of salvation. Thus, we are dealing with two Catholic doctrines (no salvation outside of the Church, no absolute assurance of salvation) that forces a Catholic to at least have some question about the state of this apparently holy man’s soul.
 
I can’t believe the title of this thread, and I can’t believe there is debate on this point.

That’s kinda like saying will Mother Theresa or Pope JP be in heaven.

Google “Billy Graham Catholic” and you will find you are not the only ones questioning this.

OK. I suppose there is a 0.0001 percent chance that we are all wrong and he is another Jim Bakker/Ted Haggart/Jimmy Swaggart type. I put the odds that low because if he were, God would have exposed him before he hit 80 something.

Besides I have not seen one shred of credible evidence of reproach on his character.

But other than that 0.0001 percent chance, there should be no debate.

If Billy Graham is not in heaven, heaven will be a very, very lonely place.
There is debate because the Catholic Church, with the authority given to her by Jesus himself, has declared authoritatively that salvation outside the Church is not possible- with very few exceptions (Baptism by Blood, Baptism of Desire and Ignorance).

Like you, many find the thought of people like Billy Graham, who do works of great and historical proportions, potentially at great risk of losing his salvation due to their inability to be faithfully reconciled (or for a better word) back to the Church.

Can we treat this possibility lightly? Are there not many Christians within our own spheres of influence that need to hear this message?

It is true, God will be the sole and final judge when it is time… but I tremble at the the thought “I never knew you” may be the reply heard for any soul.

Cyprian of Carthage

“Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6, 1st ed. [A.D. 251]).

“Let them not think that the way of life or salvation exists for them, if they have refused to obey the bishops and priests, since the Lord says in the book of Deuteronomy: ‘And any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest or judge, whoever he may be in those days, that man shall die’ [Deut. 17:12]. And then, indeed, they were killed with the sword . . . but now the proud and insolent are killed with the sword of the Spirit, when they are cast out from the Church. For they cannot live outside, since there is only one house of God, and there can be no salvation for anyone except in the Church” (Letters 61[4]:4 [A.D. 253]).

“When we say, ‘Do you believe in eternal life and the remission of sins through the holy Church?’ we mean that remission of sins is not granted except in the Church” (ibid., 69[70]:2 [A.D. 253]).

“Peter himself, showing and vindicating the unity, has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved except by the one only baptism of the one Church. He says, ‘In the ark of Noah a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Similarly, baptism will in like manner save you” [1 Peter 3:20-21]. In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! In that baptism of the world in which its ancient wickedness was washed away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water. Likewise, neither can he be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark" (ibid., 73[71]:11).

“[O]utside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism” (Treatise on Rebaptism 10 [A.D. 256]).
 
There is debate because the Catholic Church, with the authority given to her by Jesus himself, has declared authoritatively that salvation outside the Church is not possible- with very few exceptions (Baptism by Blood, Baptism of Desire and Ignorance).
Just because Catholicism has declared that salvation outside of Catholicism is not possible, does not mean that God has declared this.

God does not give man the authority to set the rules for Him.

Just because Cyprian of Carthage made some statements before the church divided upon itself does not necessarily mean he would make the same statements after the division.

Oh, and one more thing. Pope JP, unlike the busybodies here, actually had interaction with Billy Graham. And surprise, surprise…from all accounts Pope JP considered Billy Graham his brother in Christ (and vice versa).

Now if Pope JP was apparantly unconcerned about Billy Graham’s eternal soul, what right do you have to question his eternal destiny.
 
Now if Pope JP was apparantly unconcerned about Billy Graham’s eternal soul, what right do you have to question his eternal destiny.
And in case you don’t believe me, here is an article from Christianity Today.
Billy Graham had never met a pope until John Paul II invited him to Rome in 1981. Ushered into the papal apartments by the Vatican’s famous Swiss Guard, Graham marveled at the pomp. He and the pope chatted like long-lost friends for half an hour, swapping photos, gifts, and travel stories. Before Graham left, John Paul II reached over, clutched Graham’s thumb, and told him, “We are brothers.”
You guys are doubting your own Pope!
 
Oh, and one more thing. Pope JP, unlike the busybodies here, actually had interaction with Billy Graham. And surprise, surprise…from all accounts Pope JP considered Billy Graham his brother in Christ (and vice versa).

Now if Pope JP was apparantly unconcerned about Billy Graham’s eternal soul, what right do you have to question his eternal destiny.
That is a great example where it really makes this question I posed so intriguing!

Here we have a doctrine that authoritatively states that salvation outside the Church is not possible- with exceptions; subsequently, we have an example where it would appear the Pope himself has given special discompensation. We cannot read the mind of the Pope, and we do not know clearly what happened during their time together… but Billy Graham clearly has not publicly stated his conversion or return to the Catholic Church.

Assuming Billy Graham has not converted, and that he continues to profess his current beliefs, without a conversion to the Catholic Faith, before he passes on… do you believe he will go to heaven? It would appear he could not count on ignorance as an excuse not to.

This begs the question then: if Billy Graham, under the watchful association of the Pope himself, has not converted and reconciled himself to the Catholic Church- despite the dire warnings that the doctrine of No Salvation Outside the Church contains… is the doctrine truly valid?

If it does not apply to Billy, can we say that it does’t apply to many other well-meaning Christians outside the Church?

Lastly, wouldn’t it be the greatest Catholic evangalistic event in history if the Pope could/did make Billy Graham a convert!
 
Tyler, what you’re attempting to do is take Catholic teaching out of context. You’re quoting parts of Catholic documents, again out of context, in a failed attempt to paint the Church as incorrect. If you go back to post # 20, your answer is that Billy Graham, as well as every Christian, IS a member of the “Catholic Church”. By official Catholic teaching. They may not follow the teachings of the formal Church, and as such are in danger, but they are in fact members of the Catholic Church.
 
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