Will I go to Hell

[benedictus2]

The Catholic Church is a part of the body, it is quite Biblically sound to look at a number of denominations, collectively, as THE Body, or the Church. The Bible uses the Word “one” in it’s collective sense in a number of ways; including “one” God.

No it is not Biblically sound because Christ established only one Church (not churches). The fact that the protestant churches have different beliefs to the Church that Christ founded means that we are not one body of believers because our beliefs differ. Even the protestant churches are not one body because even among themselves they differ in beliefs.

We all know that we are not one. Everyone acknowledges that.

The only way we are one is that we all share in the one humanity that has been redeemed by Christ.

 

[benedictus2]

Post 342 “You on the other hand do not BELIEVE that truth so it is rather QUESTIONABLE whether you REALLY BELIEVE in Him or just covenient bits that jive with your own mindset.”

That was post 241 (we are only upon the310s here)
You said: Jesus said that I am the way, the truth and the life he who believes in me will not parish but have etenal life.
To which I replied: Yes, perfectly put. And it is because we believe in Him that we believe He is speaking the truth in Matthew 16. You on the other hand do not believe that truth so it is rather questionable whether you really believe in Him or just the convenient bits that jive with your own mindset

Point 1: There is nothing in my above that questioned your faith in the Father.

Point 2: What I was questioning was whether you believe Christ considering that you do not believe what He said in Matthew 16. Because if you believe what he said in Matthew 16, then you will believe that He built only one Church (the Catholic Church as there are no other churches then) and that you will believe that that Church is still here today because He said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. If you really believe in Him, then you will know that He keeps promises and that is one promise He has kept.

You say your right I say I’m right. We will get no place and we won’t agree so is a mute.

In 2 opposing sides, only one can be true the other false. If I said something is black, and you said something is white then only one of us can be true. And the truth on that one can be established in the same way that the truth on what we are arguing can be established.

And I’m to be impressed by your IQ of 170 and that means your right about everything. How vain you are.

Duhh I did not say that my IQ is 170. What I was trying to illustrate there is if someone was saying an exemplary fact about oneself, that is just stating a fact. It is not a sign of conceit but a mere statement of fact.

Just because your church was the first don’t mean anything just that it was frist. It don’t prove its right.

Yes it does, because Christ did not establish a first second and third Church. He established only one Church and He prayed that we will be one as the Father and Him are one. The splintered mess that is Protestantism is not what God designed and willed. He wants all His disciples to be one.

They came to the church. I left the church. They forund something different and I found something different. What is your point.

That you left because you really did not know that the position of the Church on the points that you disagreed with is the correct position. Most people leave the church because they find the moral teachings too hard. The thing is Christ never said following Him will be easy.

Following Him means the cross.

I left the Catholic church because I don’t believe in some of the teachings and ways.

Which particular teachings and ways?

I do read other things besides whst they want me to read. I read about the Catholic faith and all faiths. My mind hasn’t changed like yours hasn’t changed.

Actually my mind has changed. A lot. When I was at university I thought euthanasia was justifiable.

My mind has changed a lot since being in these forums because it has strengthened my faith and I have found that truly, faith is reasonable. The truth will convict you.

 

[Protestant101]

Well since the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded on earth, and the Protestant Churches are just branches that sprouted 1500 years later, then I would say that those who left are coming Home, and not the other way around.

Scott Hahn put it so well. He made a promise to God to follow the Truth wherever it led. And Truth led Him to the Catholic Church.

All in God’s time. But we must not harden our hearts and set our own agenda’s. We must pray for an open heart and an open mind.

I agree, we don’t want to harden our hearts…Your comment re Protestants springing up 1500 years later, is not supported by Scripture. They have always been around, although like your denomination, were not always called “Protestants;” just as your church was not always called “Catholic;” or “Roman Catholic.” Actually none of these three terms are in the Bible; but they can all be plainly seen under different terminology even in the Old Testament…

Protestants say that Catholics apostasized, Catholics say that Protestants “separated from the Church,” but it’s a fact, I made and still make the same prayer as Scott Hahn that God enable me and enlighten me to follow the truth wherever it leads; and I am led to the Adventist Church and her teachings everytime. I have university level education, I have taken many degree level theology courses, I have served as elder, lay pastor,and all kinds of leadership positions in the Church. I sit and read complex scientific text books like most people do a pocket novel, so it’s not like I am being duped and don’t know what I am doing either. So is Scott Hahn’s “conversion” “real” or is mine? How do we tell?

I don’t know how anyone could deny that God has called me to fellowship with His Son, and in His Remnant Church, the Seventh-day Adventist Church, after reading my testimony.

When God founded “the Church” it was collectively a number of different churches and individuals known together as “the church.” This is a fitting Biblical description of the Remnant Church and why I have stayed where I am.

No one is going to go to hell just for leaving the Catholic Church, or even from leaving mine! As long as they keep looking to Jesus alone as the Author and Finisher of their faith.

And hey! Thanks for hearing me out benedictus2! I know you will have lots to say in return, and thats why I keep coming back here for visits. I look forward to it all!

 

[mike52ad]

There is no such thing as a former Catholic, only Catholics that have run away from home. Your reason for wishing to “leave” the Church is a bit on the vague side but leaving the Catholic Church means leaving the Eucharist, the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. That is certainly a great loss to take to look for some sort of emotional feeling. At Mass you are actually in heaven, participating with the total and eternal worship of God with the angels and saints. My goodness, what more do you want? Do not equate emotion based preaching with enthusiasm. They are two different things. My friend, do not run away from home. Disappointment and sorrow is the destination of the road you intend to walk down. Get and listen to the CD about the conversion of Scott Hahn it will give you some idea of what you loose if you leave. The Catholic Church IS the true church, the one intended to last until the end of time and the one started by Jesus, the Son of God. I will pray for you, first that you do not indulge in a fruitless quest and if you do that your absence from your home will be of short duration.

As to if you will go to hell…only you and God will know. Truth exists outside the Catholic Church but only in the Catholic Church does total truth exist. Rejection of truth does not make it less through. Rejecting truth is a serious matter but only you and God know what exactly is in your heart. Peace to you brother.

 

[Protestant101]

There is no such thing as a former Catholic, only Catholics that have run away from home. Your reason for wishing to “leave” the Church is a bit on the vague side but leaving the Catholic Church means leaving the Eucharist, the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.

Leaving the Catholic Church will not preclude anyone from the presence of Jesus. For didn’t our Savior say “there am I also” whenever two or three people get together to pray with an honest heart? When we walk on holy ground like this, we may be many miles from the nearest Church or Priest or Pastor. But it is still holy ground, because Christ is present. That is “the real presence” when we go to Jesus as we are, wherever we are.

 

[benedictus2]

I agree, we don’t want to harden our hearts…Your comment re Protestants springing up 1500 years later, is not supported by Scripture.
They have always been around, although like your denomination, were not always called “Protestants;” just as your church was not always called “Catholic;” or “Roman Catholic.” Actually none of these three terms are in the Bible; but they can all be plainly seen under different terminology even in the Old Testament…

Well I can’t see in Acts any other church other than the one that was born at Pentecost.

Protestants say that Catholics apostasized,

Protestants cannot prove this. They can prove terrible corruption and abuse but not apostasy. For one thing for the Catholic Church (the church itself mind you) to appostasize, that means that the Catholic Church has gone against its own belief. How is that possible?

If anything one could say that in the past the heirary were terrible hypocrites, not practicing what they taught. But even in those dark days, she never taught the evil that some of her members practiced.

Catholics say that Protestants “separated from the Church,”

That is a fact. Even secular history books support that.

but it’s a fact, I made and still make the same prayer as Scott Hahn that God enable me and enlighten me to follow the truth wherever it leads; and I am led to the Adventist Church and her teachings everytime.

How can Christ who is truth lead you away from His Church. It just doesn’t make sense.

However if you are sincerely praying Scott Hahn’s prayer God will surely lead you to His Church (if not in this life certainly in the next ).

If you are sincere in your prayer and He has not led you there yet, then He has a reason for this and we are not to question His reason only to follow His will. It is perhaps His will that you remain there (perhaps for a little while longer).

I don’t know how long the other SDAs in these forum took to come home but in the end, that time was God’s time. Not anyone else’s time who want them to “cross the Tiber”.

I have university level education, I have taken many degree level theology courses, I have served as elder, lay pastor,and all kinds of leadership positions in the Church. I sit and read complex scientific text books like most people do a pocket novel, so it’s not like I am being duped and don’t know what I am doing either. So is Scott Hahn’s “conversion” “real” or is mine? How do we tell?

I have no doubt that you are quite intelligent and are very spiritual. Your poetry and sculptures prove that.

What Scott Hahn did was enroll at a catholic university because the course he wanted to do was not being offered at his university. So what happened was he got exposed to a lot of varied readings. It was actually quite funny because he (the lone protestant in his class) ended up defending catholic doctrine from attacks by the catholics who were enrolled there.

Read beyond what the SDA recommends. Read beyond SDA material. (I think you do this already though).

When Scott Hahn started asking questions, the top presbyterian theologian met with him to try to convince him. But in the end the theologian left, unable to answer Scott’s questions. And these are questions that were answered by the Church.

I don’t know how anyone could deny that God has called me to fellowship with His Son, and in His Remnant Church, the Seventh-day Adventist Church, after reading my testimony.

God indeed calls you to fellowship with His Son. Perhaps too He has led you there at this stage in your life. But one thing that strikes me is that you are here, in this Catholic website. God has led you here too. Perhaps so that you will come to know what the Catholic Church is truly all about.

When God founded “the Church” it was collectively a number of different churches and individuals known together as “the church.”

Yes there were different churches and inviduals but they were all of one belief. That is why when a question arose regarding circumcisions, Paul and Barnabas had to go to Jerusalem to the apostles to get their concensus. They were different churches (as in the Chuch of Australa, America, UK, Canada, Philippines, etc) but they were of one faith.

This is a fitting Biblical description of the Remnant Church and why I have stayed where I am.

No one is going to go to hell just for leaving the Catholic Church, or even from leaving mine! As long as they keep looking to Jesus alone as the Author and Finisher of their faith.

That is true. No one is going to go to hell for leaving the Catholic Church. But those who are or will be in hell will be outside of the Catholic Church.
For when we all get to heaven, everyone will be Catholic. That is why we affirm the communion of saints: the saints in heaven, the saints in the making in purgatory and on earth.

Yes, the church here on earth is eternal, because Christ who is her head, is eternal.

And hey! Thanks for hearing me out benedictus2! I know you will have lots to say in return, and thats why I keep coming back here for visits. I look forward to it all!

Love sparring with you too

 

[Protestant101]

How can Christ who is truth lead you away from His Church. It just doesn’t make sense.

Read beyond what the SDA recommends. Read beyond SDA material. (I think you do this already though).

When Scott Hahn started asking questions, the top presbyterian theologian met with him to try to convince him. But in the end the theologian left, unable to answer Scott’s questions. And these are questions that were answered by the Church.

God indeed calls you to fellowship with His Son. Perhaps too He has led you there at this stage in your life. But one thing that strikes me is that you are here, in this Catholic website. God has led you here too. Perhaps so that you will come to know what the Catholic Church is truly all about.

Yes there were different churches and inviduals but they were all of one belief. That is why when a question arose regarding circumcisions, Paul and Barnabas had to go to Jerusalem to the apostles to get their concensus. They were different churches (as in the Chuch of Australa, America, UK, Canada, Philippines, etc) but they were of one faith.

That is true. No one is going to go to hell for leaving the Catholic Church. But those who are or will be in hell will be outside of the Catholic Church.
For when we all get to heaven, everyone will be Catholic. That is why we affirm the communion of saints: the saints in heaven, the saints in the making in purgatory and on earth.

Yes, the church here on earth is eternal, because Christ who is her head, is eternal.

Love sparring with you too

Well, some in the Catholic Church who have their names on the books, will go to hell, literally, just as they will in my Church. Jesus said that not all who say"Lord, Lord," will know Him, nor will He know them.

Isn’t it possible that what we have here are two different Churches, where there are people who do know Jesus, and whom Jesus knows too? I am not so sure that it is doctrine alone that does that, because of our very different and differing beliefs.

If this person were to leave the Catholic Church it would not mean a sure trip to the eternal flames, only that there was a problem there in that church. The problem is always with the people, not with their Lord. May God bless you as we continue to compare notes and exchange ideas.

 

[benedictus2]

And Christs disciples were commanded to go into all the world and make other disciples in all nations. Disciples who had the authority the same mission of the initial disciples.

In both Matthew and Mark’s accounts, this commisioning was given to the apostles only. And these sames apostles are the ones who appointed others to continue the mission.

 

[benedictus2]

Jesus never lies. Men missinterpret what Jesus says. Just like what the gates of hell mean. No Catholic has been able to explain how the gates of hell will not prevail means that Catholics cannot err in doctrine.

I think have before.

For the gates of hell to prevail means that the Church would have taught error. Remember Jesus described that the devil is the father of lies. For the Church to teach error would mean that the church has been guided and has followed the father of lies, the devil. When that happens we will no longer follow what is true and therefore fail to follow Christ because Chrsit is the way, the Truth and the Life.

This phrasing is very interisting. Jesus says is the Truth and the Life. Juxtapose here what he says about the devil - he is the father of lies (opposite of truth) and a murderer from the beginning (opposite of life).

So from the lies will come death because we will be led astray; we will no longer be following Him who is the Way and the Truth.

 

[benedictus2]

The RCC was abusive for centuries. She strayed for the true gospel and took down the word of God from its rightfull place.

Actually not. Sure she sinned. But if you are just going to look at the sinning bit, Martin Luther himself acknowledge that the “reformers” became more vile than the church that they were hoping to reform.

But this is not about sin, because sin can be handled if we have the truth. What protestantism did is do away with some of the truth so they are left with a half truth, which is essentially a lie.
Your denial of the seriousness and effects of the sins of the RCC prevent any reconciliation.
We do not deny the seriousness of the sins. But that is just what is great about it. Sins can be forgiven. But how can you correct error since you don’t even know that you are in error. When you start teaching that something that is a sin is no longer a sin.

So long as you know it is a sin, you can still repent. But how can you repent, when your mind is so clouded by error, you are commiting a sin and refuse to repent because you have been taught that it is quite okay to commit it.

That is the greater tragedy. Jesus came for the sinners, He said so.

Jesus is adamant that He is the Truth. Unfortunately, in the protestant case, it was not only they like us remained sinners, they lost the truth as well. So how to find your way back when you’ve lost the map, the Truth.

Indeed there should not be a reconcilation until such a time comes that you realize that the lies you teach are detrimental to the health of one’s soul.

A reconciliation will only happen when everyone becomes Catholic.

 

[benedictus2]

Well, some in the Catholic Church who have their names on the books, will go to hell, literally, just as they will in my Church. Jesus said that not all who say"Lord, Lord," will know Him, nor will He know them.

Isn’t it possible that what we have here are two different Churches, where there are people who do know Jesus, and whom Jesus knows too? I am not so sure that it is doctrine alone that does that, because of our very different and differing beliefs.

If this person were to leave the Catholic Church it would not mean a sure trip to the eternal flames,

That is true and we never said otherwise. It is not only Catholics on this earth who will see God face to face. But when we get to the other side of eternity, if we do end up seeing God face to face, then all will be Catholic. We will all give assent to the truth that the Church proclaims even though we may not give assent to it now.

It will be like, even if one does not now agree on the Church’s teachings about Mary, forgiveness of sins, purgatory, etc, - when one gets to heaven, one will realize that, yes indeed, these are all true.

only that there was a problem there in that church.

Not necessarily. There may be a problem with the individual. Most of the time, the fault is with us. And the failure to acknowledge that is what prevents us from healing.

The problem is always with the people, not with their Lord.

That is most True. That is why I said above, usually when we are complaining about something, most likely the problem is with us. But blame shifting is a game that everyone loves to play.

I would hazard a guess that most Catholics leave the church because of her moral teachings. They find it too hard, too difficult. But Christ’s teachings are hard because it means the way of the cross. The difficult things in life are also the most rewarding. If we follow Him, then he makes the burden light. But we must follow Him first.

With the cross is the ressurection. There is no other way. The pain of Good Friday then the joy of Easter Sunday.

May God bless you as we continue to compare notes and exchange ideas.

Blessings on you as well. God keep you in His embrace always and May Christ fill you with His peace and His joy

 

[elvisman]

John Calvin and the gang were pretty adept at murder and execution as were the peasants in Luther’s day in Germany and other groups. I fail to see the point? If you expect scandal and individual sin to disqualify a church’s legitimacy, then every single Protestant denomination is toast. They ALL have no-goodnicks, ruffians, sharks, and grafters. All the Reformation did was create chaos and a mirror-driven self-translation and self-appointed papacy for everyone who joined. It yielded theological meltdown, frivolity, chaos, and the myriad thousands of conflicting denominations we have today in 2009. The Deformation was not a success.

PRECISELY my point.
Great post.

 

[elvisman]

meantime, there was an atheist silently in the background, shaking his head at human lunacy, inventing something

Meantime, there was an athiest silently in the background for whom the truth had not yet been revealed, shaking his head in frustration because of his lack of faith . . .

 

[elvisman]

Wrong
Who is Jesus, he is Christ. Who is Christ, he is Jesus. Christ: The Son of God, The Messiah, The Anointed One.
Never said the Bible was.
From a study Bible and the Catholic web sites.Where do you get yours?
Wrong
Matthew 26:20 When Jesus sat down at the table with hes 12 DISCIPLES …
Matthew 26:47 And even as he said this, Judas, one of the 12 DISCIPLES.
Matthew 26:19 So the DISCIPLES did as Jesus told them and prepared the Passover supper there.
Matthew 26:1 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he said to his DISCIPLES,…
Matther 28:18 Jesus came and told his DISCIPLES…
Mark 16:14 Still later he appeared the the 11 DISCIPLES…
Mark 6:30 The APOSTLES returned…{ Mark uses the word Apostles here and in 3:12. Apostle means “one sent” as messemger, authorized agent, or missionary. The word became an official title for Jesus’ 12 Disciples after his death and resurrection. Acts 1:25,26 Ephesians 2:20}

Wrong it says DISCIPLES

You need to read the Bible. Who are you to put words in his mouth and twist the meanings.
But I can see that you didn’t say anything about you questioning my faith. because you were wrong and I was right.

**So - because YOU can’t decipher between the use of the words, “Apostles” and “Disciples” - you believe that the 12 Apostles weren’t present at the Last Supper?? **You actually believe it was 12 other guys?? Peter and Judas are mentioned by name, as are James, John, Andrew immediatly after at the Garden of Gethsemane. These men were APOSTLES.

The word, “Disciples” is interchageble as it pertains to the Apostles but NOT the other way around. The Apostles were INDEED disciples but NOBODY else is mentioned as being an APOSTLE of Jesus when he was on earth other than the 12. These men were the leaders of the Early Church.

You have completely twisted the Scriptures to your own destruction, my friend (2 Pet. 3:16). You have splintered even further than most of your Protestant brethren who don’t believe in your bizarre interpretations.

 

[Bill_Pick]

So - because YOU can’t decipher between the use of the words, “Apostles” and “Disciples” - you believe that the 12 Apostles weren’t present at the Last Supper?? You actually believe it was 12 other guys?? Peter and Judas are mentioned by name, as are James, John, Andrew immediatly after at the Garden of Gethsemane. These men were APOSTLES.

The word, "Disciples" is interchageble as it pertains to the Apostles but NOT the other way around. The Apostles were INDEED disciples but NOBODY else is mentioned as being an APOSTLE of Jesus when he was on earth other than the 12. These men were the leaders of the Early Church.

You have completely twisted the Scriptures to your own destruction, my friend (2 Pet. 3:16). You have splintered even further than most of your Protestant brethren who don’t believe in your bizarre interpretations.

rev, do you get your interpretation from your ND church or the pastor of that church ,or are you using your private interpretation. Just a question from your friend.

 

[Protestant101]

That is true and we never said otherwise. It is not only Catholics on this earth who will see God face to face. But when we get to the other side of eternity, if we do end up seeing God face to face, then all will be Catholic. We will all give assent to the truth that the Church proclaims even though we may not give assent to it now.

It will be like, even if one does not now agree on the Church’s teachings about Mary, forgiveness of sins, purgatory, etc, - when one gets to heaven, one will realize that, yes indeed, these are all true.

Not necessarily. There may be a problem with the individual. Most of the time, the fault is with us. And the failure to acknowledge that is what prevents us from healing.

That is most True. That is why I said above, usually when we are complaining about something, most likely the problem is with us. But blame shifting is a game that everyone loves to play.

I would hazard a guess that most Catholics leave the church because of her moral teachings. They find it too hard, too difficult. But Christ’s teachings are hard because it means the way of the cross. The difficult things in life are also the most rewarding. If we follow Him, then he makes the burden light. But we must follow Him first.

With the cross is the ressurection. There is no other way. The pain of Good Friday then the joy of Easter Sunday.

Blessings on you as well. God keep you in His embrace always and May Christ fill you with His peace and His joy

You are correct in observing that there would also likely be a problem with the indivdual, and not just that church. I thought I had implied that in my post, but maybe I intended to and did not do a great job. I would say that it takes two to tangle, and that it is likely that both would have to share blame when an individua leaves a Church.

 

[DJgang]

The original poster posted the last time on this thread about 10 pages ago…

I wonder where he is?

 

[rev_kevin]

rev, do you get your interpretation from your ND church or the pastor of that church ,or are you using your private interpretation. Just a question from your friend.

Bill, this is not my post, its elvisman’s post

 

[Bill_Pick]

Bill, this is not my post, its elvisman’s post

rev Sorry,have a good night

 

[kell0618]

I do not know if you will go to hell or not. I do know that if you are looking for ‘enthusiasm’ that you have misguided your focus. At Calvary, when Christ was on the Cross, what sort of ‘enthusiasm’ was present? What sort of entertainment was present there?