Will I go to Hell

[rev_kevin]

So - because YOU can’t decipher between the use of the words, “Apostles” and “Disciples” - you believe that the 12 Apostles weren’t present at the Last Supper?? You actually believe it was 12 other guys?? Peter and Judas are mentioned by name, as are James, John, Andrew immediatly after at the Garden of Gethsemane. These men were APOSTLES.

The word, "Disciples" is interchageble as it pertains to the Apostles but NOT the other way around. The Apostles were INDEED disciples but NOBODY else is mentioned as being an APOSTLE of Jesus when he was on earth other than the 12. These men were the leaders of the Early Church.

You have completely twisted the Scriptures to your own destruction, my friend (2 Pet. 3:16). You have splintered even further than most of your Protestant brethren who don’t believe in your bizarre interpretations.

Yes the were present at the Last Supper but they were not Apostles yet, they were still disciples.
Matthew 26:20 “While it was evening, Jesus sat down at the table with the 12 disciples.”
Mark 14:12 " On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, Jesus’ disciples asked him…"

I can give you plenty more if you like.

No the same 12 disciples (read above)

Matthew 26:40 "Then he returned to the disciples and found them asleep.
Just because he called them by their manes don’t mean they were Apostles yet.

Yes they were leaders of the Early Church, at this point they were Apostles, teachers.

You are wrong my friend. You need to read and study your Bible more than you have. Below I have given you what a Disciple and Apostle are. If you choose not to accept it, then so be it.

Catholic answers form encyclopedia
Disciple: This term is commomly applied to one who is learning any art or science from one distinguished by his accomplishments. (learner)

Apostle: The Name: origns of the Apostolate; office of the Apostles; authority oand prerpogatives of the Apostlees; relation to Bishop; orgin of feasts of the Apostles.
(teacher)

Webster dictionary
Disciple: a pupil or follower who accepts and helps spered the teachings of another.
(learner)

Apostle: one who is sent out on a religious mission. One of an authoritative New Testament group made up especially of Christ’s 12 original disciples. (teacher)

Bible Dictionary
Disciple: learner, student, follower apprentice. (learner)

Apostle: one sent out on a mission. (teacher)

I really wish you would stop trying to make me look bad, by doing so you are only making yourself look bad. I have not twisted the Scripture or splintered it. I believe that is what you are doing my friend.

 

[rev_kevin]

That was post 241 (we are only upon the310s here)
You said: Jesus said that I am the way, the truth and the life he who believes in me will not parish but have etenal life.
To which I replied: Yes, perfectly put. And it is because we believe in Him that we believe He is speaking the truth in Matthew 16. You on the other hand do not believe that truth so it is rather questionable whether you really believe in Him or just the convenient bits that jive with your own mindset

Point 1: There is nothing in my above that questioned your faith in the Father.

Point 2: What I was questioning was whether you believe Christ considering that you do not believe what He said in Matthew 16. Because if you believe what he said in Matthew 16, then you will believe that He built only one Church (the Catholic Church as there are no other churches then) and that you will believe that that Church is still here today because He said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. If you really believe in Him, then you will know that He keeps promises and that is one promise He has kept.

In 2 opposing sides, only one can be true the other false. If I said something is black, and you said something is white then only one of us can be true. And the truth on that one can be established in the same way that the truth on what we are arguing can be established.

Duhh I did not say that my IQ is 170. What I was trying to illustrate there is if someone was saying an exemplary fact about oneself, that is just stating a fact. It is not a sign of conceit but a mere statement of fact.

Yes it does, because Christ did not establish a first second and third Church. He established only one Church and He prayed that we will be one as the Father and Him are one. The splintered mess that is Protestantism is not what God designed and willed. He wants all His disciples to be one.

That you left because you really did not know that the position of the Church on the points that you disagreed with is the correct position. Most people leave the church because they find the moral teachings too hard. The thing is Christ never said following Him will be easy.

Following Him means the cross.

Which particular teachings and ways?

Actually my mind has changed. A lot. When I was at university I thought euthanasia was justifiable.

My mind has changed a lot since being in these forums because it has strengthened my faith and I have found that truly, faith is reasonable. The truth will convict you.

Sorry but we will never agree. Have a good day.

 

[Protestant101]

I have a general observation/question for posters in this topic, if I may? I understand before asking it that answers may vary, depending upon which denomination you are from. But it has ocurred to me that maybe we are missing something here?

All of us would agree that there definitely is a hell; just as we would that heaven is real. While our various denominations would not agree on the specific nature of the two; we do agree that both exist. Right?

Now, obviously, God gives many warnings in Scripture re hell and hell fire. He doesn’t want us to end up there, right? Therefore, shouldn’t there be a way to determine if we will end up in one or the other? Does God leave us wondering all our lives? Why do we have such a hard time figuring this out and having assurance of our salvation in Christ alone? To say only God knows if we will go to hell, is to say only He can know if we are going to heaven too. So where is the assurance of salvation if “we cannot know?” Surely God is not into this kind of guessing game? Salvation by charades?

I am particularly looking forward to benedictus2’s answers and thoughts on this!

 

[bridgeforsale]

Meantime, there was an athiest silently in the background for whom the truth had not yet been revealed, shaking his head in frustration because of his lack of faith . . .

I guess I agree. I’m not willing to believe a cosmic Jewish guy can make me live forever if I eat his flesh; and if I telepathically tell him I accept him as my master he will remove the evil force from my soul, which is present in me because a talking snake convinced a woman to eat from a magical tree

 

[elvisman]

Yes the were present at the Last Supper but they were not Apostles yet, they were still disciples.
Matthew 26:20 “While it was evening, Jesus sat down at the table with the 12 disciples.”
Mark 14:12 " On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, Jesus’ disciples asked him…"

I can give you plenty more if you like.

No the same 12 disciples (read above)

Matthew 26:40 "Then he returned to the disciples and found them asleep.
Just because he called them by their manes don’t mean they were Apostles yet.

Yes they were leaders of the Early Church, at this point they were Apostles, teachers.

You are wrong my friend. You need to read and study your Bible more than you have. Below I have given you what a Disciple and Apostle are. If you choose not to accept it, then so be it.

Catholic answers form encyclopedia
Disciple: This term is commomly applied to one who is learning any art or science from one distinguished by his accomplishments. (learner)

Apostle: The Name: origns of the Apostolate; office of the Apostles; authority oand prerpogatives of the Apostlees; relation to Bishop; orgin of feasts of the Apostles.
(teacher)

Webster dictionary
Disciple: a pupil or follower who accepts and helps spered the teachings of another.
(learner)

Apostle: one who is sent out on a religious mission. One of an authoritative New Testament group made up especially of Christ’s 12 original disciples. (teacher)

Bible Dictionary
Disciple: learner, student, follower apprentice. (learner)

Apostle: one sent out on a mission. (teacher)

I really wish you would stop trying to make me look bad, by doing so you are only making yourself look bad. I have not twisted the Scripture or splintered it. I believe that is what you are doing my friend.

You’re dead wrong and you haven’t studied the Scriptures.
The Apostles were ALSO disciples. There were ALSO disciples that were NOT Apostles. The apostles were named so WAY before Jesus died, rose and ascended to heaven:
Matt. 10:2
**The names of the twelve Apostles are these: first, Simon called Peter, and his brother Andrew; James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John; **
**Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James, the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddeus; ****Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot who betrayed him. **

Mark 3:14
**He appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) that they might be with him **

Mark 6:30
**The apostles gathered together with Jesus and reported all they had done and taught. **

Luke 6:5
When day came, he called his disciples to himself, and from them he chose Twelve, whom he also named apostles

---

Luke 9:10
When the apostles returned, they explained to him what they had done.

Luke 17:5
And the apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith."

 

[elvisman]

I guess I agree. I’m not willing to believe a cosmic Jewish guy can make me live forever if I eat his flesh; and if I telepathically tell him I accept him as my master he will remove the evil force from my soul, which is present in me because a talking snake convinced a woman to eat from a magical tree

And I pray that God will reveal himself to you.

 

[peary]

You never answered the question as to why you want to leave the Catholic Church and become an Assembly of God member.

 

[bridgeforsale]

**And I pray that God will reveal **himself to you.

does god talk back to you … I mean seriously?

I don’t mean to demean this whole thing (but sometimes it’s hard not to). Do you really think there’s a cosmic force you can appeal to, who can influence my decisions? Do you really, really, really believe this to be true?

I was a Christian at one point in my life, until I honestly thought about it

 

[elvisman]

does god talk back to you … I mean seriously?

**Yes – but not always in a voice per see. There have been too many times in my life where his will has prevailed and in retrospect, it
**

I don’t mean to demean this whole thing (but sometimes it’s hard not to). Do you really think there’s a cosmic force you can appeal to, who can influence my decisions? Do you really, really, really believe this to be true?

I was a Christian at one point in my life, until I honestly thought about it:shrug:

Again – my life experience alone has shown me that I can’t believe anything else. There is just*** too***** much evidence that supports that there is a God.**
That’s why more and more scientists are acquiescing to the belief in creationism. There is just no valid reason anymore to believe that this is all simply an accident. In fact – it’s silly.

---

Not to belittle your experience but it’s hard to believe that you actually were a Christian. I can’t judge your heart but it seems that you may have only dabbled in Christianity.

 

[elvisman]

does god talk back to you … I mean seriously?

**Yes – but not always in a voice per see. Sometimes, it’s a strong feeling or resolution after having prayed about something that I was extremely confused or troubled by. I have felt his grace wash over me and comfort me in times of trouble. I have witnessed medical ****miracles **that came about after my entire family prayed for our dying father. There have been too many times in my life where I have witnessed his mercy and experienced his grace to reject the notion that he spoke to me.

I don’t mean to demean this whole thing (but sometimes it’s hard not to). Do you really think there’s a cosmic force you can appeal to, who can influence my decisions? Do you really, really, really believe this to be true?

I was a Christian at one point in my life, until I honestly thought about it:shrug:

Again – my life experience alone has shown me that I can’t believe anything else. There is just*** too***** much evidence that supports that there is a God.**
That’s why more and more scientists are acquiescing to the belief in creationism. There is just no valid reason anymore to believe that this is all simply an accident. In fact – it’s silly.

---

Not to belittle your experience but it’s hard to believe that you actually were a Christian. I can’t judge your heart but it seems that you may have only dabbled in Christianity.

 

[rev_kevin]

**You’re **dead wrong and you haven’t studied the Scriptures.
The Apostles were ALSO disciples. There were ALSO disciples that were NOT Apostles. The apostles were named so WAY before Jesus died, rose and ascended to heaven:
Matt. 10:2
**The names of the twelve Apostles **are these: first, Simon called Peter, and his brother Andrew; James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John;
**Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James, the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddeus; ****Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot who betrayed him. **

Mark 3:14
He appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) that they might be with him

Mark 6:30
The apostles gathered together with Jesus and reported all they had done and taught.

Luke 6:5
When day came, he called his disciples to himself, and from them he chose Twelve, whom he also named apostles

---

Luke 9:10
When the apostles returned, they explained to him what they had done.

Luke 17:5
And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”

Ok now if you look at Matthew 10:2 what do you see. Jesus called his 12 disciples (learners) and gave them authority to cast out evil spirits and to heal every kind of disease and illness. And here are the names of the 12 apostles (teachers) Now when Jesus sent out the 12 disciples, who are learners at this point, to go to the lost sheep. To go and announce to them the Kingdom of Heaven is near, at this point when Jesus sent them out, they then became apostiles, which are teachers.
Once again
disciple:learner
apostle:teacher

In order to know what Jesus was doing in Mark 3:14 you must first look at Mark 3:7 through16. Here Jesus picked he 12 disciples from the vast crowd. Now if you notice that in 13 it says “Afterward Jesus went up on a mountain and called the ones he wanted to go with him. And they came to him.” Now Jesus at this point called many disciples (learners) to go with him up the mountain. Then in 14 it says “Then he selected 12 of them to be his regular companions, calling them apostles. He sent them out to preach.”
(teachers) Now if you notice before he sent them out they were called disciples the when he sent them to preach they were calle apostles.

Mark 6:30 If you notice the words in this verse, it says they gathered around Jesus and reported all the had done and taught. They taught, teachers that are apostles.

Luke 6:5 says “And Jesus added, I, the Son of Man, am master even of the Sabbath.”
Where did you get your Luke 6:5 from.

Luke 9:10 same explaination as Mark 6:30.

Luke 17:5 is talking about faith not about learning or teaching. It says we need more faith. See although they were apostles (teachers) they did not have the faith necessary for such radical forgiveness.

In order to understand you need to read a few verses before and a few verses after the one you stress to get the whole picture of what is going on and what the meaning is.

Sorry brother but you are wrong and need to study more and understand more about Scriptuer.

 

[Protestant101]

does god talk back to you … I mean seriously?

I don’t mean to demean this whole thing (but sometimes it’s hard not to). Do you really think there’s a cosmic force you can appeal to, who can influence my decisions? Do you really, really, really believe this to be true?

I was a Christian at one point in my life, until I honestly thought about it

I would be curious to hear what you mean when you say “I was a Christian?” How do you know this, in light of the rest of your post? What evidence would you give to say “I WAS a Christian?”

 

[Bill_Pick]

Ok now if you look at Matthew 10:2 what do you see. Jesus called his 12 disciples (learners) and gave them authority to cast out evil spirits and to heal every kind of disease and illness. And here are the names of the 12 apostles (teachers) Now when Jesus sent out the 12 disciples, who are learners at this point, to go to the lost sheep. To go and announce to them the Kingdom of Heaven is near, at this point when Jesus sent them out, they then became apostiles, which are teachers.
Once again
disciple:learner
apostle:teacher

In order to know what Jesus was doing in Mark 3:14 you must first look at Mark 3:7 through16. Here Jesus picked he 12 disciples from the vast crowd. Now if you notice that in 13 it says “Afterward Jesus went up on a mountain and called the ones he wanted to go with him. And they came to him.” Now Jesus at this point called many disciples (learners) to go with him up the mountain. Then in 14 it says “Then he selected 12 of them to be his regular companions, calling them apostles. He sent them out to preach.”
(teachers) Now if you notice before he sent them out they were called disciples the when he sent them to preach they were calle apostles.

Mark 6:30 If you notice the words in this verse, it says they gathered around Jesus and reported all the had done and taught. They taught, teachers that are apostles.

Luke 6:5 says “And Jesus added, I, the Son of Man, am master even of the Sabbath.”
Where did you get your Luke 6:5 from.

Luke 9:10 same explaination as Mark 6:30.

Luke 17:5 is talking about faith not about learning or teaching. It says we need more faith. See although they were apostles (teachers) they did not have the faith necessary for such radical forgiveness.

In order to understand you need to read a few verses before and a few verses after the one you stress to get the whole picture of what is going on and what the meaning is.

Sorry brother but you are wrong and need to study more and understand more about Scriptuer.

Matt,10.2 And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, 3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, rev You Bible and my bible does not say the same thing

 

[rev_kevin]

Matt,10.2 And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, 3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, rev You Bible and my bible does not say the same thing

Bill my friend, I never stated or wrote down the names of the Apostles. I wish you would stop getting me confused with elvisman. He is the one who wrote them down.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Bill my friend, I never stated or wrote down the names of the Apostles. I wish you would stop getting me confused with elvisman. He is the one who wrote them down.

revc it was for you to see Matt.10" 2

 

[Bill_Pick]

Bill my friend, I never stated or wrote down the names of the Apostles. I wish you would stop getting me confused with elvisman. He is the one who wrote them down.

This post was for you and not elvisman

 

[rev_kevin]

This post was for you and not elvisman

Ok Bill I don’t know what you are talking about. Once again I never wrote the names down so how can you ask a question that my Bible doesn’t say the same thing yours says if I never wrote the names down in any post. It was elvisman that wrote the names down in post 333 in post 338 I responded to elvisman and I did not write down any of the names.
What is it that you want me to see in Matthew 10:2???
My Bible says the exact same thing yours says.

 

[elvisman]

Ok now if you look at Matthew 10:2 what do you see. Jesus called his 12 disciples (learners) and gave them authority to cast out evil spirits and to heal every kind of disease and illness. And here are the names of the 12 apostles (teachers) Now when Jesus sent out the 12 disciples, who are learners at this point, to go to the lost sheep. To go and announce to them the Kingdom of Heaven is near, at this point when Jesus sent them out, they then became apostiles, which are teachers.
Once again
disciple:learner
apostle:teacher

In order to know what Jesus was doing in Mark 3:14 you must first look at Mark 3:7 through16. Here Jesus picked he 12 disciples from the vast crowd. Now if you notice that in 13 it says “Afterward Jesus went up on a mountain and called the ones he wanted to go with him. And they came to him.” Now Jesus at this point called many disciples (learners) to go with him up the mountain. Then in 14 it says “Then he selected 12 of them to be his regular companions, calling them apostles. He sent them out to preach.”
(teachers) Now if you notice before he sent them out they were called disciples the when he sent them to preach they were calle apostles.

Mark 6:30 If you notice the words in this verse, it says they gathered around Jesus and reported all the had done and taught. They taught, teachers that are apostles.

Luke 6:5 says “And Jesus added, I, the Son of Man, am master even of the Sabbath.”
Where did you get your Luke 6:5 from.

Luke 9:10 same explaination as Mark 6:30.

Luke 17:5 is talking about faith not about learning or teaching. It says we need more faith. See although they were apostles (teachers) they did not have the faith necessary for such radical forgiveness.

In order to understand you need to read a few verses before and a few verses after the one you stress to get the whole picture of what is going on and what the meaning is.

Sorry brother but you are wrong and need to study more and understand more about Scriptuer.

You just don’t get it.
The Apostles were Disciples until Jesus ascended into heaven and were STILL learning up until Jesus Ascended into heaven.
Acts 1:1-2** explicitly says: “In the first book, Theophilus, I dealt with all that Jesus did and taught until the day he was taken up, after giving instructions through the holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen****.“**

---

It wasn’t until Pentecost that they were able go out and boldly proclaim the gospel.
**In **post #329 you erroneously claimed that they were NOT Apostles before the Last Supper. You are WRONG and I have supplied you with ample Scriptural proof of this.

---

You just can’t seem to grasp the fact that even though they were Apostles early on – they were STILL disciples of Jesus. It’s not a case of either/or – it’s BOTH.

---

PS – Luke 6:5 was a typo. It’s Luke 6:13.

 

[bridgeforsale]

I would be curious to hear what you mean when you say “I was a Christian?” How do you know this, in light of the rest of your post? What evidence would you give to say “I WAS a Christian?”

no true Scotsman fallacy

With regard to Elvisman’s response to me, as for your experiences, fair enough, but what’s to say they weren’t simply internal psychological reactions to perceived reality? There’s probably far more Christians who have prayed their butts off for dying loved ones, who ultimately lost their loved one (due to illness), so is it that they weren’t true Christians, or did God not love them as much as he loves you, or is the most logical answer, your dad probably wouldn’t have died anyway?

Does god always grant you exactly what you ask? If so you’d be the first (in my experience); and I’d think you weren’t being honest to boot. The fact is the way Christians validate prayer is a way that really gives us no evidence at all.

You pray, the thing you prayed for didn’t happen, but rather something else happened. You say, this is how god answered my prayers. Fine, but in all probability – had you not prayed – the same thing would have happened. In other words these type of soft claims prove nothing. Sometimes your prayers may be answered. Well, if you pray enough, occassionally (statistically speaking) something you want to happen will follow. Then you celebrate, god gave me exactly what I hoped for, what a great god?

In truth, in all probability, that thing would have happened anyway. I don’t pray, my life is still OK

 

[Protestant101]

no true Scotsman fallacy

With regard to Elvisman’s response to me, as for your experiences, fair enough, but what’s to say they weren’t simply internal psychological reactions to perceived reality? There’s probably far more Christians who have prayed their butts off for dying loved ones, who ultimately lost their loved one (due to illness), so is it that they weren’t true Christians, or did God not love them as much as he loves you, or is the most logical answer, your dad probably wouldn’t have died anyway?

Does god always grant you exactly what you ask? If so you’d be the first (in my experience); and I’d think you weren’t being honest to boot. The fact is the way Christians validate prayer is a way that really gives us no evidence at all.

You pray, the thing you prayed for didn’t happen, but rather something else happened. You say, this is how god answered my prayers. Fine, but in all probability – had you not prayed – the same thing would have happened. In other words these type of soft claims prove nothing. Sometimes your prayers may be answered. Well, if you pray enough, occassionally (statistically speaking) something you want to happen will follow. Then you celebrate, god gave me exactly what I hoped for, what a great god?

In truth, in all probability, that thing would have happened anyway. I don’t pray, my life is still OK

Well, I wouldnt claim to know all the answers to questions about God; but what I do know of Him I have no problems with. When I pray; He has one of several answers - yes, no maybe or wait. What we call “unanswered prayer,” often is. We just don’t like the answer. But whatever His answer, He is always a great God!