E
englishredrose
Guest
i do rather like your point here.…but how do you research something that don’t exist ???
- Status
i do rather like your point here.…but how do you research something that don’t exist ???
A
Armor_of_Light
Guest
Also a good point…!
I’unno. Like researching Atlantis or Zeus or cosmic strings or something I suppose.
N
NonServiam
Guest
I’m in the process of discussing the claim “God exists” with that other guy on this thread (the guy who has yet to respond to my last well-thought-out post on the subject).
You can follow along, or not. My “sources” are every argument that I could find for the existence of all gods – culled from multiple sources, as many as I could find in years of reading up on the subject.
Yes, which is why I also do not accept the claim “God does not exist.”
I realize this might be hard to grasp, but I’m not “undecided” or “on the fence.”
Let me explain with the example of Bigfoot (and no, I’m not comparing your god to Bigfoot…I’m comparing attitudes of acceptance towards claims).
I have reviewed the evidence and decided that there is insufficient evidence for me to accept the claim “Bigfoot exists.” Therefore, I do not accept that claim: I do not believe in Bigfoot and am thus an aBigfootist. However, I don’t go around claiming, “I know that there is no Bigfoot! There can’t be a Bigfoot!” The claim “There is no Bigfoot” is its own claim, which would require its own evidence, and I also find that claim lacking, so I do not accept it. But the issue in question is the claim that Bigfoot exists and whether or not I’m a believer in that claim. I’m not. I’m an aBigfootist.
Similarly, I have reviewed the evidence and decided that there is insufficient evidence for me to accept the claim “God exists.” Therefore, I do not accept that claim: I do not believe in God and am thus an atheist. However, I don’t go around claiming, “I know that there is no God! There can’t be a God!” The claim “There is no God” is its own claim, which would require its own evidence, and I also find that claim lacking, so I do not accept it. But the issue in question is the claim that God exists and whether or not I’m a believer in that claim. I’m not. I’m an atheist.
As an atheist, I do not assert that there is no god (and as an aBigfootist, I do not assert that there is no Bigfoot): I am merely, on the question of “Do you believe any gods exist?” in the non-believer camp (in the camp of those who do not accept the claim), on the grounds that I have decided that there is insufficient evidence.
J
Justinian_III
Guest
It is. You’ll go to heaven. Everyone will. There are many verses in the bible that say so.
N
nightranger
Guest
Well if you are going to hell, than I am too
G
grandfather
Guest
I tihnk your logic or reasoning is flawed. There are two claims Bigfoot exists and Bigfoot does not exist. Logic says both can not be true. One is true and one is false. When you say you do not accept that bf exists based on the evidence you have seen, but can not claim bf does not exist, you are saying you do not think bf exists, but bf might exist. You are saying you do not know. You do not think bf exists, but bf might exist. If you can not claim you know bf does not exist you are saying you do not know. There is a difference between thinking and knowing. One is a speculation. The other is awareness of some knowledge, perhaps through direct experience of a thing, or by accepting evidence from another person or persons.
Had you seen bf running through the woods on a camping trip and took photos and seen footprints and found and analyzed hair samples caught on a branch you might think differently. The witiness and evidence from others is unconvincing.
Also when you say you have examined the evidence of the existance of God that is not quite accurate. You have examined the limited evidence available to you and based on that you do not think God exists, but can not assert knowledge that He does not exist.
As with people who claim to have encountered bf there are some who claim to have encountered God. Logic says they could be deliberately attempting to deceive, are personally deceived, suffering hallucinations, or mentally ill, or that they have encountered God.
There are many thousands of claims of people who say they have encountered God and some offer the evidence of miracles, things that violate the laws of nature in support of their claims.
In order for there to have been no such encounter with the supernatural they all must be deceptive or not well.
Again, you have examined limited evidence and based on that taken your position.
T
T_Mitz
Guest
Invincible Ignorance is a tough topic to speak about, simply for the reason that so many people in our world have heard the name Jesus simply because of the way the media spreads stuff around. This is more common in areas that haven’t been as technologically advanced as most parts of the world.
Protestants actually can have invincible ignorance too. It’s actually easier for them I to achieve this, I believe, than people who haven’t heard of God whatsoever. I think that us Catholics need to do a better job of evangelizing to other protestants and non believers of the truth, because it seems protestants get most of that done, and so it is only part-truth.
M
Maryann_C
Guest
That is rather a bold claim since Jesus says " not every one who comes to me saying Lord Lord will I recognize" and the Bible says the the goats will be separated from the sheep at the final judgement.
Would you like to quote some of your verses to back up your statement???
P
Poseidon
Guest
In this case you have two opposite claims, one positive (Bigfoot exists) and one negative (Bigfoot does not exist). When examining these claims, we should take the default position of open-minded skepticism. We shouldn’t start out saying that he definitely doesn’t exist, but we also shouldn’t immediately accept his existence either. We can, however, use our intuition to guess the probable outcome of this debate.
Now once we examine the evidence available about Bigfoot - the video recording, eyewitness testimony, tracks, expert opinion, we can reach a tentative conclusion - that Bigfoot is unlikely to exist, that he probably doesn’t exist. Notice I’m not saying Bigfoot definitely does not exist, just probably.
At this point, while I am technically a Bigfoot agnostic, since I’m not 100% sure, for all practical purposes I am an a-bigfootist. I will live my life on the assumption that there is no Bigfoot. I will not take safety measures for encountering Bigfoot when hiking in Bigfoot country, I will not insure my house against Bigfoot damage, I will not guard my pets or my kids against Bigfoot attacks.
At this point I am still not making the claim “Bigfoot does not exist.” I am saying that the claim that Bigfoot does exist is not supported by evidence, and therefore is probably false.
F
fred_conty
Guest
Nonserviam, you said,
“If someone honestly believes that I am bound for eternal suffering (for merely not being convinced of a claim), I think it’s fair for me to ask if they think I deserve it. No one’s given me a straight answer on that question yet, and I personally think that’s rather revealing.”
UNQUOTE
The church really dosen’t pronounce judgement on any individual. The church dosen’t do that.
It can only lay the ground rules for entrance into heaven or the exit.
The church says that entrance into the church is the normal way of salvation.
The church says that sometimes a person will obtain salvation if thru no fault of their own,
they do not know the true church, as long as they are sincere in living a good life as best they can.
The church says that those who once found the church and entered it and subsequently left it are in jepordy of their salvation because they once had the truth and lost it.
St. Paul says that very same thing in one of his letters, and that they will have to answer in a greater way than those who never had the truth to begin with.
However when all is said and done, it really comes down to the hour or moment of death.
The person whom Jesus gave his life for is ready and waiting for their sorrow and contrition.
I’m sure that would please our dear Jesus more than anything else if any person would stretch out their hand for his help, for that is what he came to do, to save those who are down.
So in the final analysis it really is never too late as long as there is one last breath left.
But that is playing roulette with eternity.
I wish sincerly that God will restore you in full.
And if you ever desire to pick up your faith again, or try to regain it, I couldn’t recommend anything more effective then the green scapular. Just get a fee one by googling “green
scapular” Put it in your wallet and say this prayer every day “immaculate heart of Mary pray for us now and at the hour of our death.” One of her promises was to restore faith.
If you want, just PM me, and I will also say that prayer for you every day. I would like to do that for you when you carry the scapular.
Hoping for God’s goodness to you
Fred.
“If someone honestly believes that I am bound for eternal suffering (for merely not being convinced of a claim), I think it’s fair for me to ask if they think I deserve it. No one’s given me a straight answer on that question yet, and I personally think that’s rather revealing.”
UNQUOTE
The church really dosen’t pronounce judgement on any individual. The church dosen’t do that.
It can only lay the ground rules for entrance into heaven or the exit.
The church says that entrance into the church is the normal way of salvation.
The church says that sometimes a person will obtain salvation if thru no fault of their own,
they do not know the true church, as long as they are sincere in living a good life as best they can.
The church says that those who once found the church and entered it and subsequently left it are in jepordy of their salvation because they once had the truth and lost it.
St. Paul says that very same thing in one of his letters, and that they will have to answer in a greater way than those who never had the truth to begin with.
However when all is said and done, it really comes down to the hour or moment of death.
The person whom Jesus gave his life for is ready and waiting for their sorrow and contrition.
I’m sure that would please our dear Jesus more than anything else if any person would stretch out their hand for his help, for that is what he came to do, to save those who are down.
So in the final analysis it really is never too late as long as there is one last breath left.
But that is playing roulette with eternity.
I wish sincerly that God will restore you in full.
And if you ever desire to pick up your faith again, or try to regain it, I couldn’t recommend anything more effective then the green scapular. Just get a fee one by googling “green
scapular” Put it in your wallet and say this prayer every day “immaculate heart of Mary pray for us now and at the hour of our death.” One of her promises was to restore faith.
If you want, just PM me, and I will also say that prayer for you every day. I would like to do that for you when you carry the scapular.
Hoping for God’s goodness to you
Fred.
N
NonServiam
Guest
But belief isn’t limited to those two options. In a similar way, a defendent at trial is either guilty or innocent, but my beliefs aren’t limited to those two options: I can vote “not guilty,” which means that I think the claim “The defendent is guilty” has not met its burden of proof and which also says nothing about what I think of the claim, “The defendent is innocent.”
Or, rather, that they have encountered many different gods: there are plenty of Hindus, Moslems, Zoroastrians, ancient pagans, and others who think they have “encountered” various gods, in addition to Christians of thousands of different denominations (each of whom thinks they have “encountered” a slightly different deity).
Or many of them are simply mistaken about an experience they had.
The human brain, you know, has been programed by evolution to come to snap judgments, so it’s not surprising at all that people misinterpret the fuzzy feelings that they get when they meditate and pray, etc.
You are wrong. I’ve carefully considered it all – including “eyewitness testimony” of people who have “encountered” all the various thousands of gods that have been worshipped – and I have concluded that none of it is sufficient to justify the claim that any gods exist.
N
NonServiam
Guest
That’s what I’m talking about: the ground rules. According to those rules, I am (most likely) bound for some version of “hell” (whether that “hell” is eternal suffering or simply missing out on the bounty of God’s presence forever…take the interpretation that pleases you).
I’m asking a more fundamental question: do you think it’s fair that I be penalized in this way simply for honestly not being convinced of a claim? You think it’s fair that I be punished for exercising intellectual honesty? If you do, I think that says a lot about your values.
I don’t. “Faith” to me is no virtue, and I don’t go around believing in things because I want them to be true. I want to believe things because they actually are true, and the only way I can determine that is by appealing to evidence.
I’ll pass, if it’s all the same to you.
N
NonServiam
Guest
So, has Gorgias abandoned the thread? Pity.
U
underacloud
Guest
I’m not sure what answer you’re looking for here? There have been plenty of posts in this thread already (20 pages) that discuss this in detail. Some people seem to want to apply a rigid criteria and suggest that you will (most likely) go to hell. Others, including myself, have said that we simply cannot say and that it will be between you and God; for God to judge you according to how you have responded to the truth as you have encountered it; what’s unfair about that? If you are right and there is no God, the answer to your question is irrelevant. If you are wrong and there is a God, our God, then you can ask Him yourself. Only then will your suggestion of excercising intellectual honest be shown to either be true or an obstinant attempt to disprove, and thus reject, God in your own mind (I don’t presume one way or the other, I’m merely speaking abstractly).
T
THE_ENCORE
Guest
If ur an atheist u don’t really practice the belief of life after death.
P
Poseidon
Guest
Yes, I know. I’m asking out of intellectual curiosity, not because I fear for my immortal soul (because I don’t think I have one).
J
Justinian_III
Guest
Yes.
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the Sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme.
Mark 3:28
Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
John 1:29
I hope that is sufficient. Notice that it never says “some” but “the world”
P
PennyinCanada
Guest
When you will come before God, either you will come under His judgment or His mercy. Since you have no interest in seeking mercy, or availing yourself of the awesome and tremendous gifts available to all of us, you will come under His judgment. Jesus didn’t die on the cross because we are saints. Jesus is the door to Heaven, and you aren’t interested. That really is quite shocking to me.
God will show you your life with His eyes. You will see what you might have done had you been plugged in to Him, His will, His grace. Had you been walking with Him daily. How you would have impacted lives and the world. It will cause you great sadness and weeping. You will see your soul without the grace and light of Christ in it, and you yourself will flee the eyes of God.
Currently you are not in need of a physician, as Christ said. I pray one day you do look for the physician of your soul. We are less because you will not join us.
L
lerapt78
Guest
Code:
[quote="NonServiam, post:72, topic:284451"]
I haven't chosen anything. I am sincerely unconvinced of claims of this god's existence (along with claims about the existence of other gods).[/quote]
You’re equivocating. I am in a position where I don’t see sufficient reason to think that the claims of any religion are true. I’m not saying, “I would never want to spend any time with God! Blecch! What a gross old dude!” I’m saying, “I don’t see sufficient reason to think that this religion – or any other religion, for that matter – is true.”
And your God is prepared to let me suffer forever for having the intellectual honesty to think through my position? I’ll ask you again: what kind of a being would do such a thing?
The kind of being who saw fit to give us free will. What we do with that gift is obviously our choice and subsequently our responsibility to accept the outcomes of that choice, regardless of how unfortunate they may be.
(I’m still trying to figure out how to use the “Quote” options, so forgive me if this reply doesn’t look organized)
C
Catholic80
Guest
I think you are asking yourself the wrong question.
A good, “moral” life is nothing, really. You might want to ask yourself, “What is heaven?” Is it just some happy place after I die, or is being united with God forever the cause for the eternal joy?"
Think of a child who is throwing a tantrum. If his loving mother were to pick him up and hug him during his tantrum, he would only kick and scream all the more. In a very poor analogy, hell is kind of like an eternal tantrum.
If you are an atheist and could care less about God, then being united with God in eternal happiness doesn’t make any sense. As a Christian, I believe that God created us out of love and is love, and therefore, our only complete happiness is residing in that love for eternity. If you don’t want it, then you don’t want it. Hell is a choice. We were all created in love and for love, so if we reject love, we are rejecting ourselves and our entire being. It’s the antithesis of love. And to be rejected from love is excruciatingly painful. This eternal state or rejection from love is hell.
A good, “moral” life is nothing, really. You might want to ask yourself, “What is heaven?” Is it just some happy place after I die, or is being united with God forever the cause for the eternal joy?"
Think of a child who is throwing a tantrum. If his loving mother were to pick him up and hug him during his tantrum, he would only kick and scream all the more. In a very poor analogy, hell is kind of like an eternal tantrum.
If you are an atheist and could care less about God, then being united with God in eternal happiness doesn’t make any sense. As a Christian, I believe that God created us out of love and is love, and therefore, our only complete happiness is residing in that love for eternity. If you don’t want it, then you don’t want it. Hell is a choice. We were all created in love and for love, so if we reject love, we are rejecting ourselves and our entire being. It’s the antithesis of love. And to be rejected from love is excruciatingly painful. This eternal state or rejection from love is hell.
- Status