Will I go to hell?

[Maryann_C]

That is rather a bold claim since Jesus says " not every one who comes to me saying Lord Lord will I recognize" and the Bible says the the goats will be separated from the sheep at the final judgement.

Would you like to quote some of your verses to back up your statement???

Yes.
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the Sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme.
Mark 3:28
Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
John 1:29
I hope that is sufficient. Notice that it never says “some” but “the world”

OK So if we are to interpret all these verses to mean that everyone will go to heaven, even those who choose to reject God ( there is a difference between an atheist and an agnostic you know), then please explain to me WHY Jesus bothered to go to all that trouble of telling the apostles to wait for the Holy Spirit and to go forth and spread the Good News since according to your interpretation of the Bible all that was needed was Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. I mean why did he tell people to go and baptize? why did he bother to give Peter the keys and tell him that what he binds on earth will be bound in heaven and etc, why did Jesus bother to tell people they would have to eat/gnaw on his flesh and drink his blood, something that cause all but the apostles to turn away from him because of this “hard teaching”. why did Jesus bother to say “I am the Way , no one comes to the Father but through me” , why didn’t he just say " I am the way that the whole world will get to heaven, you don’t need to follow the law any more , you are not condemned if you worship false idols, you can go and commit adultery and fornication - don’t worry your sins are covered by me - I got this , you just go and enjoy your life in your sin and I will see you in heaven"??? because this is what you are implying that you believe . If I have misunderstood you please explain because It seems to me that either the Jesus in your Bible contradicts Himself and that your interpretation contradicts every known Christian denomination’s teaching that ever existed to my knowledge …not withstanding the Catholic Church’s teaching on invincible ignorance which I will not go into since it has already been discussed in this thread. Invincible ignorance does not mean that those who reject God will go to Heaven,

OR perhaps your interpretation is flawed ,in which case you can lead others not just yourself astray ?

Since you are clearly very familiar with the Bible I am sure you are able to find all the verses that I talk about but if not I will gladly quote them for you after work just let me know. But why don’t you begin with explaining the very first one I gave and tell me WHY if all will go to Heaven ,according to your interpretation, will Jesus separate the sheep from the goats and reject some that call him 'Lord ,Lord 'saying they prophesied and did things in His name? It seems to me that if I were to believe with your understanding - then why bother evangelizing anyone, why bother being here on CAF and I may as well become a Buddhist or an atheist like the OP and NS.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Probably. But it is by your own choice.

However, if you don’t want to go there, you know exactly what you need to do to prevent it.

 

[NonServiam]

When you will come before God, either you will come under His judgment or His mercy. Since you have no interest in seeking mercy

Just to be clear, it’s not that I have “no interest in seeking mercy.” Maybe I would seek mercy if I thought 1) that this god you’re talking about actually existed 2) that this god was going to offer me either “judgment or mercy” and 3) that I could take steps to choose mercy over judgment.

Of course, I don’t think any of those things are true, not because I “have no interest in seeking mercy” but because there’s no good reason for me to think that it’s true.

It’s sort of like you saying “Leprechauns are going to beat you up tonight if you don’t ask for their mercy by leaving food on your porch!”

And I would respond, “Err…what? I don’t believe in leprechauns because I don’t think there is any good evidence for their existence. So obviously, since I don’t believe they’re real, I’m not going to “ask for their mercy” by leaving food on my porch.”

And you would respond, “Well, okay…but don’t come crying to me when they beat you up because you chose to get beaten up!”

Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that leprechauns actually are real, and they do in fact beat me up for not leaving them food. Did I really “choose” to get beaten up by them? Is that a fair way to characterize what happened? Or is it, rather, that I didn’t have any reason to think that the leprechauns (or their threat) were real and acted accordingly?

I think it’s grossly unfair to spin the story as “nonbeliever choose to go to hell.” We don’t, not any more than I choose to get beat up by leprechauns for deciding not to leave them food.

I pray one day you do look for the physician of your soul.

I’ve got one better for you. Pray to your God that he will reveal to you exactly what to say to me that would convince me.

If your God exists and is all-knowing, then he already knows exactly what would convince me. Pray that he will reveal to you exactly what to say that would convince me, and then come back here and report the results.

 

[lifeandhope]

Insomnia allowed me to read this thread…and I keep coming back to the same thought: if you truly do not believe that God exists, why the inordinate amount of time on a Catholic website? We are not talking a passing comment or a five minute conversation; these posts have gone on quite a while. I would think that if it were cut and dry (I don’t believe God exists) and if there was no emotional impact of this, then the OP and the NonServiam individuals wouldn’t waste their time discussing the issue. Also, the question of the OP seems to me to not be “is God going to put me in hell” as much as it is “do you Christians, believing something I don’t believe in, believe that I am going to hell?” To which I wonder, why does it matter what a group online Catholics think of your final destination?

One of my all time favorite quotes:
“Choosing to believe IS believing. It’s all I can do: choose. I do not affirm that I am without doubt, but I do ask for help, having chosen to overcome it. I do but say, ‘Lord, I believe-help Thou mine unbelief’” --Sheldon Vanauken

I have struggled with my faith, especially during my personal ‘dark night of the soul’ and an ongoing battle with cancer for the last 12 years and my beloved Dad’s death. But I CHOOSE to believe. I have a Master’s degree–I am well-educated and I have studied theology extensively. I have chosen to believe, based on all that I have studied, read, and researched over my 36 years. If you choose not to believe, I am not sure why the question is even relevant to you–obviously there is something that draws you toward the discussion, even if it is to understand those around you who are believers.

Best wishes to all.

 

[GraceDK]

I’ll repeat, please don’t try to psychoanalyze me. I’m trying to get people’s views on the subject of whether an otherwise moral atheist who was once Catholic can get into heaven. It doesn’t have to be me, I’m just the most available example. I want your well-reasoned argument about why I (or some other hypothetical person) can or can’t get into heaven, not your condescension.

Dear Poseidon.

Im sorry you have lost your friendship with Christ… You must be devastated. Did you never experience Him before?
I haven’t been an atheist, but there are times where God seems far away and I start to act like He went off to another country and is never coming back. But when that happens, like when it happens with other people, I get sad, and I tell myself to persevere. Meeting Jesus was the single most wonderful thing in my life.
He is the most really real that exists, and our level of being is like shadows in comparison.

To your question. You have had faith you say, but you lost it. How could you loose it. Did you start to sin without repentance? Bible tells us that sin is the door to blindness and more sin… and I can testify that this is true. Or did you stop nurturing the gifts of faith that God gave you? If so, why? My relationship with Jesus is a source of joy… I cannot imagine loosing it without being on my knees begging for Him to restore it.

You say you are a moral man. But Christ taught that we should “repent and believe in the Gospel” and the one that does not believe will be judged. It seems there is a matter of will, even in this question.

**We have all sinned and lost the glory **and we have become children of wrath, says the Bible. So if you dont repent and come to Jesus so He can cleanse you in His Blood, how will you saved? If you refuse to confess how can you stand before His Holiness?
It exists
Don’t you know that Hell is nothing but the self-desired absense of the God who is Truth and Love and Light?

He has made a Way. He is the Way to Heaven. He says it. If you refuse to enter through Him you cannot be saved, because God is true to His own Word.

If you were really once a Christian you would already know all this. So I wonder, were you ever truly a believer, or did you just do the motions and never choose Christ freely as an adult?

 

[NonServiam]

Insomnia allowed me to read this thread…and I keep coming back to the same thought: if you truly do not believe that God exists, why the inordinate amount of time on a Catholic website?

There’s not really a mystery here: I enjoy talking about this subject, and so I talk about it.

In the grand scheme of things, relatively few atheists enjoy talking about this subject on internet messageboards, just as relatively few Christians enjoy talking about this subject on messageboards. You’ll find that most atheists – along with most Christians – have interests that include home repair, gardening, sports, collecting stamps, playing games, etc.

As ever in life, people tend to do what they enjoy, and so it’s hardly surprising that a small number of atheists enjoy talking about religion.

Also, the question of the OP seems to me to not be “is God going to put me in hell” as much as it is “do you Christians, believing something I don’t believe in, believe that I am going to hell?” To which I wonder, why does it matter what a group online Catholics think of your final destination?

I’m sure it doesn’t “matter” to him – any more than the score of last night’s hockey game “matters” in the grand scheme of things – but people are interested in things like people’s beliefs and hockey, despite the fact that there may not be some great “meaning” to them.

People tend to talk about things that interest them – hence, online discussion forums.

Incidentally, one could make the argument that unlike hockey scores, the beliefs of individuals – particularly the beliefs of individuals about what other people deserve, what these individuals consider to be fair – tells us a lot about the character of those individuals. And since I have to live in a world full of others, knowing something about their character is at least as useful as it is interesting to me.

But I CHOOSE to believe.

I don’t think belief is a choice, at least not in the simple sense.

For example, I could not believe in leprechauns right now if I wanted to. I am incapable of willing myself to believe in them for the simple reason that I have not been convinced of their existence by means of evidence.

“Belief” is a word for the mental state of being convinced that a proposition is true, and one is convinced by means of evidence and reasoned argument. Now, one’s desire can influence beliefs in this sense: if one very much wants – or conversely very much doesn’t want – something to be true, that desire can affect the way an individual processes the evidence, such that an individual can become convinced of a claim by means of evidence that more objective inquiry would reveal to be insufficient.

I believe things because they are true, not because I want them to be true. It all comes down to the value an individual places on truth and having an accurate picture of the world.

 

[CatherineOH]

Just to be clear, it’s not that I have “no interest in seeking mercy.” …
…
I’ve got one better for you. Pray to your God that he will reveal to you exactly what to say to me that would convince me.
…
If your God exists and is all-knowing, then he already knows exactly what would convince me. …

I would suggest he is already revealing himself to you or you would not be posting here.
A true Atheist wouldn’t even think of posting because they don’t believe and don’t care one way or the other of folks who do.

So I ask you to ask yourself, Why are you posting?
are you (in your heart) asking the lord to help your unbelief?
I know I do, and I believe.

I do not expect, nor do I want a reply to this, but do ask yourself this question.
It is a tough one which may take a lifetime to answer.

At any road, Peace Brother.

 

[ASimon]

I would suggest he is already revealing himself to you or you would not be posting here.
A true Atheist wouldn’t even think of posting because they don’t believe and don’t care one way or the other of folks who do.

So I ask you to ask yourself, Why are you posting?
are you (in your heart) asking the lord to help your unbelief?
I know I do, and I believe.

I do not expect, nor do I want a reply to this, but do ask yourself this question.
It is a tough one which may take a lifetime to answer.

At any road, Peace Brother.

You may not want a reply to this, but I imagine you’ll get one, all the same. I’m just not certain if people truly understand how arrogant they sound when they start talking like this.

 

[CatherineOH]

You may not want a reply to this, but I imagine you’ll get one, all the same. I’m just not certain if people truly understand how arrogant they sound when they start talking like this.

Well, I am arrogant.

The poster is either a TROLL, or is not actually an Atheist and wants to be talked out of or into it.

So yea, Arrogance abounds.

 

[NonServiam]

A true Atheist wouldn’t even think of posting because they don’t believe and don’t care one way or the other of folks who do.

I wonder if these “true atheists” hang out with “true scotsmen” ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)

So I ask you to ask yourself, Why are you posting?

Because I find it fun. It’s the same reason I have discussions with religious people from non-Christian religions, too.

are you (in your heart) asking the lord to help your unbelief?

No.

I do not expect, nor do I want a reply to this

When you say something in public, you open yourself up to a public response.

I’ll make you the same offer I made the other guy: Pray to your God and ask him exactly what you should say in order to convince me.

If your God exists and is all-knowing, then he absolutely knows exactly what would convince me. So ask him to tell you and then report it back here, and we’ll see if he’s right.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

You may not want a reply to this, but I imagine you’ll get one, all the same. I’m just not certain if people truly understand how arrogant they sound when they start talking like this.

A little presuptuous maybe, and baiting…but I don’t see arrogance. How is it arrogant if you please?

Hi NonServaim! I’m still reading along…I just do not have the time to devote to this with my full attention these days. Good stuff. I’m beginning to appreciate your postings more and more, although as you know I am not an atheist (however it is defined).

 

[MarkInOregon]

Love isn’t a being. It’s an emotion.

If you’re claiming that your God exists as nothing more than an emotion or a thought, then I would definitely agree with that.

But most claims about God that I’ve heard indicate that this God is a being that exists outside the head of individuals. Beings that exist outside the heads of individuals are detectable in some way.

[And, incidentally, emotions are detectable as well…the fact that they are just detectable by one person tells us that they are subjective and confined to that one individual. Since you’re claiming – I assume – that your God isn’t just some subjective feeling or thought, the comparison is not correct]

Problem–God is not a being. God is being. There is a difference.

Peace,
Mark

 

[Poseidon]

Problem–God is not a being. God is being. There is a difference.

Peace,
Mark

Care to explain?

 

[Poseidon]

I think you are asking yourself the wrong question.

A good, “moral” life is nothing, really. You might want to ask yourself, “What is heaven?” Is it just some happy place after I die, or is being united with God forever the cause for the eternal joy?"

Think of a child who is throwing a tantrum. If his loving mother were to pick him up and hug him during his tantrum, he would only kick and scream all the more. In a very poor analogy, hell is kind of like an eternal tantrum.

If someone were to willingly reject God knowing that he exists, then hell may be akin to an eternal tantrum. However, the reason I don’t believe in God isn’t that I hate him or want to be a rebel, it’s that I honestly don’t see evidence that convinces me that he is real. I see a lot that tells me he isn’t real.

Using your analogy, the only reason I’m struggling with my mother, or not complying with God’s will, is that I don’t know that there is a will to comply with. I’m not a child throwing a tantrum, I’m an autistic child that doesn’t know that the outside world exists. That’s assuming I’m wrong and you’re right, of course, which I don’t think is the case.

If you are an atheist and could care less about God, then being united with God in eternal happiness doesn’t make any sense. As a Christian, I believe that God created us out of love and is love, and therefore, our only complete happiness is residing in that love for eternity. If you don’t want it, then you don’t want it. Hell is a choice. We were all created in love and for love, so if we reject love, we are rejecting ourselves and our entire being. It’s the antithesis of love. And to be rejected from love is excruciatingly painful. This eternal state or rejection from love is hell.

This argument falls to the same problem. I never chose to reject God, in the same way that you never chose to reject the Easter Bunny. You found out that the Easter Bunny doesn’t actually exist, and lost faith in him. I found out that God doesn’t exist and stopped believing in him. I never “rejected his love,” I just don’t think that there is any love to reject.

 

[Poseidon]

A little presuptuous maybe, and baiting…but I don’t see arrogance. How is it arrogant if you please?

Hi NonServaim! I’m still reading along…I just do not have the time to devote to this with my full attention these days. Good stuff. I’m beginning to appreciate your postings more and more, although as you know I am not an atheist (however it is defined).

The arrogance is the whole “I know what you’re thinking better than you know it” attitude. When people say that atheists are on this forum because we secretly believe in God but are too rebellious to admit it, and things like that, it comes across as a little arrogant. That’s what I was getting at in the first question when I asked people not to psychoanalyze me.

 

[MarkInOregon]

That’s what I’m talking about: the ground rules. According to those rules, I am (most likely) bound for some version of “hell” (whether that “hell” is eternal suffering or simply missing out on the bounty of God’s presence forever…take the interpretation that pleases you).

I’m asking a more fundamental question: do you think it’s fair that I be penalized in this way simply for honestly not being convinced of a claim? You think it’s fair that I be punished for exercising intellectual honesty? If you do, I think that says a lot about your values.

I don’t. “Faith” to me is no virtue, and I don’t go around believing in things because I want them to be true. I want to believe things because they actually are true, and the only way I can determine that is by appealing to evidence.

I’ll pass, if it’s all the same to you.

You ask a question that we really can’t answer. The “fairness” question. I don’t have enough facts to know if it is fair. I do not know what grace you have been given up to this point in your life. I do not know if you rejected that grace or are working with that grace, with that call. I am not privy to the whole picture–which is ultimately what is needed to judge fairness. I have only what you have said and that is not enough evidence for any of us to render a judgment.

You and the OP conceive of hell as “unfair” given our limited human understanding, but perhaps if we could see the entire picture–we would see how fair and just it is. How often do we read or hear a story and jump to a conclusion regarding a persons guilt or the fairness of the punishment–only to realize we were wrong because we didn’t have all the facts?

You and the OP seem to have a conception of God as simply the strongest and biggest being and as such I think conceive of him as rather a bully or uncaring–because he hasn’t and doesn’t do things they way you think would be right and just. I think this is an improper conception of God–though it is understandable–afterall how do we conceive of something that is not conceivable?

Many of us have looked at the same evidence as you and come to a different conclusion regarding the resurrection and the existence of God. Once we have accepted that existence and the revelation regarding his nature and his will–then we trust that the things we do not understand will be ultimately revealed and shown to be just–once the entire picture is seen. There are many concepts is physics that I feel the same way about–things that I just can’t visualize–just not a gift I was given–yet I don’t dismiss physics–in favor of an explanation I can understand.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

This argument falls to the same problem. I never chose to reject God, in the same way that you never chose to reject the Easter Bunny. You found out that the Easter Bunny doesn’t actually exist, and lost faith in him. I found out that God doesn’t exist and stopped believing in him. I never “rejected his love,” I just don’t think that there is any love to reject.

It is really not the same. No one ever seriously tried to convince me the Easter Bunny existed. Sure my parents hid some baskets when I was small–but there was no “real” evidence of his existence–there were no credible stories about his existence–he didn’t actually exist in history–he didn’t make any claims for himself–to my knowledge no one has gone to there death proclaiming the easter bunny’s existence and telling the good news of his life–in reality it was never presented to me as more than a nice, quaint story and when I had my doubts those doubts were confirmed by my parents who told me they played the Easter Bunny. No one can tell you the same thing about your doubts regarding God and Christ. The Gospel story is something quite different.

Peace,
Mark

 

[Catholic80]

If someone were to willingly reject God knowing that he exists, then hell may be akin to an eternal tantrum. However, the reason I don’t believe in God isn’t that I hate him or want to be a rebel, it’s that I honestly don’t see evidence that convinces me that he is real. I see a lot that tells me he isn’t real.

…

This argument falls to the same problem. I never chose to reject God, in the same way that you never chose to reject the Easter Bunny. You found out that the Easter Bunny doesn’t actually exist, and lost faith in him. I found out that God doesn’t exist and stopped believing in him. I never “rejected his love,” I just don’t think that there is any love to reject.

Your point makes me think of the last book in the Chronicles of Narnia, “The Last Battle.” There was a man from the “enemy’s side” who still entered heaven. The others wondered why he was there, but Aslan said something like, 'The young man always chose towards his conscience and tried to do the right thing, but was educated in the way of the enemy. However, this man is just also because he was always following his heart." He then turns to the young man and says, ‘everything you did for your god, you did for Me.’

The key here is this man, while on the enemy’s side, was following his heart in everything that he did. He was seeking Truth, but he never encountered Aslan’s side due to his life circumstances. When the Truth is revealed to him, the young man accepts the Truth and accepts Aslan as being the Truth.

I’ve known several atheists who kept searching for the Truth and eventually converted to Catholicism… I even know one that became a priest! Remember, God is just and merciful. If a person is seeking the truth, and is following the path of atheism because they really, with the depths of their heart, believe that to be true, then I think God would be pleased, so long as they kept searching for the Truth.

St. Paul was persecuting Christians and was in search of the Truth. God knocked him off his horse because it wasn’t a violation of Paul’s will… in a sense, Paul wanted to be knocked off because he desperately wanted to find Truth.

The danger is when we become complaisant and arrogant and stop seeking. Many Christian’s are in danger of loosing their souls because they have become lukewarm and think that “being good” is enough. It isn’t! Look at the Bible - it’s full of struggle, suffering, battles, etc. In order to follow Christ we need to suffer!

So, to answer your question, I cannot tell you if you will go to hell or not. No one can answer that question for you. But, the grace is always there.

 

[ASimon]

A little presuptuous maybe, and baiting…but I don’t see arrogance. How is it arrogant if you please?

It’s arrogant to walk around assuming that every non-believer who shows any interest whatsoever in religion is secretly crying out, not just to be saved, but to be saved by your God. It’s arrogance to begin with the assumption that everyone in your orbit either wants to be like you, or is pretending to not want to be like you.

And in any event, CatherineOH agrees with me.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

The arrogance is the whole “I know what you’re thinking better than you know it” attitude. When people say that atheists are on this forum because we secretly believe in God but are too rebellious to admit it, and things like that, it comes across as a little arrogant. That’s what I was getting at in the first question when I asked people not to psychoanalyze me.

22 pages later…hows that working out for ya?

Yes- I find it amusing that some people will jump to all sorts of conclusions about a persons motives, background, mental health and such from reading a few posts online.
I am taking this time to learn a little about atheists and their views, so I appreciate your contributions thus far. I don’t really know any atheists (outside of a childhood friend) so, there you go…

I’ll be the first to admit that believing in God is not without doubts. Many times I’ll think about God somewhat like you guys do I guess…No beginning, no end, omnipotent, all loving…riiight…sounds pretty far fetched… I choose to keep going with it. Helps me stay grounded and live a better life. I hope there is a God, and we can be together in the end.

One of the things I have always appreciated about catholicism is the theology of ‘right conscience’ and forming of ones conscience. The discipline it takes to keep analyzing ones actions and thoughts and motives against a perfect ideal.

How are your (atheists) consciences formed? Against what standard do you judge yourself? Is it a ‘moving taget’? Does the standard change as your intellectual pursuits increase?

Thanks