Will I go to hell?

[Poseidon]

Mankind only derives importance from God. The whole world and all that happens in it would be one big unfair game if there was no purpose to be derived outside of the world itself. Let’s face it-the world is meaningless by itself, and if there were no God, it will be best not to have ever been born.

I’d just like to address this one point from your post. I don’t think that life is pointless without God. In fact, I think that no God makes life all the more special. Just think - out of an uncaring universe all the amazing diversity of life we have here on earth managed to come about. Ancient stars formed the elements in our bodies, and literally exploded them out into space, where they coalesced to form the planets. Our planet, Earth, managed to get lucky enough to have the exact conditions that life needs to form, and on it life began. Hundreds of millions of years passed, with life struggling against all odds to survive, and it became more and more complicated, more sophisticated, and more intelligent, and it got to where we are today. We humans are simply little drops of consciousness in this river of life, who awaken for a brief moment to marvel at the universe’s majesty, and then return to the stardust from which we were formed. Our lives are short, yes, but that doesn’t mean they’re meaningless - we don’t have to last forever to have a purpose. And as Mark Twain said “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.” Personally, I’m very happy to have been born, even in a universe without God. If I could live forever then certainly that would be nice, but I just have to accept what I’ve been given and make the most of it, confident that if it can happen here on earth then it can certainly happen again somewhere else. That makes me happy.

 

[wcknight]

Sorry, disappearing into nothingness sounds like the real pits !!!

Only Hell sounds more depressing.

 

[NonServiam]

But the objection to all of this is of course… this will only work if we act on the presupposition that God exists, and if God does not exist, these efforts are all done in vain. Well, true; however, this is why the first step is always a step of faith. Some might think it oh so convenient, that faith is required, belief without solid evidence. But on the contrary I think it is decidedly inconvenient that faith is required, it goes against every inclination we have, but maybe that’s the point… that it is through abandoning what seems natural and having faith that will give us the means to overcome our moral deficiencies that deprive us of living “the good life” not a life of empty pleasure, but living according to what we were supposed to be.

Well, maybe, but you’re making a boatload of unjustified assumptions there.

First, given that evidence is how we determine that things are true, why would anyone want to accept something as true without evidence (especially as a means of beginning the process of inducing subjective feelings that tell us nothing about the world outside of our heads)?

Second, how do you know that there is a such a thing as “living according to what we were supposed to be”? Supposed by whom?

Third, the notion that humans have “moral deficiencies” suggests that there’s some objective moral code that we all have to live up to: how did you come to that conclusion without evidence?

Fourth, you assume that pleasure, for its own sake, is “empty,” but that requires the assumption that something else is “full” and that you have some external criteria for judging “fullness” – how did you arrive at this conclusion without evidence?

It seems to me like you’re just starting off with all these assumptions – derived from the religion you want to believe in – and using them as justification for taking a leap of faith right into the arms of the religion that inspired the assumptions in the first place.

You can’t do that if you’re interested in accepting true claims.

 

[NonServiam]

Sorry, disappearing into nothingness sounds like the real pits !!!

How so? It’s not like “you” would be there to experience nothingness…it would simply be the absence of “you.”

As a thought experiment, think back to a night when you fell asleep and woke up the next morning without having a dream. Tell me: was it “the real pits” for you during those eight hours or so that you were asleep?

Or as another thought experiment, think back to what you were doing in the year 1892. Was that year “the real pits” for you since you didn’t exist yet?

I know it’s hard to let go of the idea of “you,” but when the time comes, there won’t be a “you” to do any letting go.

 

[Poseidon]

Sorry, disappearing into nothingness sounds like the real pits !!!

Only Hell sounds more depressing.

“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.” - Mark Twain

I’ll put this quote here again because I think it really deserves repeating, and I find it comforting when I consider my inevitable death and “disappearance into nothing.” And while I don’t find it the nicest idea either, it’s an inevitable fact, so I have to either come to terms with it or spend my life crying about it. Personally I’d rather spend the limited time that I have doing things I enjoy with people I love.

And when you think about it, it’s only depressing when you are alive. When you’re dead it’s really not depressing at all, because there’s no you there to be depressed. Sometimes reality is harsh, but hey, that’s life (and death).

 

[ItsLove]

You aren’t a non-Catholic! Once a Catholic, always a Catholic
And the teaching of non-Catholics getting into heaven is because of their ignorance- if they don’t know about the Church through no fault of their own, then they can’t be held responsible. But you know, and you chose not to be.

 

[Maryann_C]

Just think - out of an uncaring universe all the amazing diversity of life we have here on earth managed to come about. Ancient stars formed the elements in our bodies, and literally exploded them out into space, where they coalesced to form the planets. Our planet, Earth, managed to get lucky enough to have the exact conditions that life needs to form… That makes me happy.

Many , and their numbers are growing ( I dare you to watch the docu movie Expelled" and see what the sainted British Atheist says on this ), noted scientists have come to realize how unscientific this idea is because nothing comes out of nothing.

“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.” - Mark Twain

Was MT aware of his existence before birth? NO so he was speaking out of ignorance, had he had an ‘after death’ or even ‘near death experience’ …makes for pretty words but on the contrary we now have many documented ‘near death’ or ‘after death’ experiences we have plenty of reliable eye witness accounts as to the real live existence of Jesus and His life…even from pagan Roman reports. We have plenty of eye witness accounts of real miracles ( things happening that scientists were impossible in the natural order, cures etc , people being raised from the dead ) and yet you would rather listen to pretty words from someone who has no clue…unless MT was a prophet , or even a ‘seer’ ,of course which is a claim I am unaware of .

 

[NonServiam]

we now have many documented ‘near death’ or ‘after death’ experiences

From people of diverse religions, each of whom sees “near death” images that correspond to their religious beliefs in life: suggesting very strongly that the whole thing is a result of the brain malfunctioning when it gets close to death.

we have plenty of reliable eye witness accounts as to the real live existence of Jesus and His life…even from pagan Roman reports.

There’s not a single contemporary eye-witness account of Jesus Christ. No one knows who wrote the Gospels, but scholars agree that they were written anonymously somewhere in the vicinity of 50-100 years after the supposed events took place.

There may have been someone named Jesus who preached some of the things Jesus did, but there is no evidence that he performed any supernatural miracles.

We have plenty of eye witness accounts of real miracles ( things happening that scientists were impossible in the natural order, cures etc , people being raised from the dead )

Even if this were true, it would be an argument from ignorance: just because the “eye witness” in question cannot explain something doesn’t mean that the “something” has a supernatural cause or that the cause was a god (let alone the specific god that you believe in).

It’s worth noting also that there are plenty of people – alive today, whom you can talk to – who claim to be eye witnesses of alien abductions. These people are serious and not insane at all…and yet, we don’t believe these people. “Eye witness testimony,” all by itself, is just not what it’s cracked up to be. People are fallible.

and yet you would rather listen to pretty words from someone who has no clue…unless MT was a prophet , or even a ‘seer’ ,of course which is a claim I am unaware of .

You again miss the point. Poseidon was categorically not saying, “I believe this because Mark Twain said it was true,” which would be an utterly stupid thing to say. He was saying, “I don’t agree that non-existence would be depressing, and this quote from a famous author nicely illustrates why non-existence would not be anything bad.”

 

[wcknight]

It may not be depressing AFTER you die but PRIOR to dying it is very depressing (or at least would be IF I did not believe there were something more).

The fact is there is something afterwards,. Just because you don’t believe it does not make it disappear. Yeah, I know you can ALMOST say the same thing in reverse… BUT from all that I’ve heard and read about, I know it is not the case.

I’ve got thousands of eye witnesses who testify (many documented and written up. many with impeccable reputations, incuding close friends that I know personally) that what they have experienced or seen is true… How many can you come up with that can say that there is nothing after death ??? Let’s see that’s thousands on my side and a bit fat ZERO for your side.

 

[sdegutis]

“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.” - Mark Twain

I’ll put this quote here again because I think it really deserves repeating, and I find it comforting when I consider my inevitable death and “disappearance into nothing.” And while I don’t find it the nicest idea either, it’s an inevitable fact, so I have to either come to terms with it or spend my life crying about it. Personally I’d rather spend the limited time that I have doing things I enjoy with people I love.

And when you think about it, it’s only depressing when you are alive. When you’re dead it’s really not depressing at all, because there’s no you there to be depressed. Sometimes reality is harsh, but hey, that’s life (and death).

I admit I’m skipping 23 pages of conversation and what I have to say may have already been said better by someone else. But from what I read, nobody has answered your question simply:

If you were a Catholic and had doubts, and let those doubts fester without researching and investigating them thoroughly, that is tantamount to rejection, because as long as you are alive you have a moral responsibility to seriously investigate the truth without bias. This means researching the Catholic Church’s defenses and apologetics for any doubts you have. So if you died in this state, obviously nobody is in God’s position as Judge and nobody can give you a certain answer as to your destination, but we can say with some probability that you are probably not heading in the best direction possible due to that rejection, whether an explicit or implicit one.

You also mention that it’s very comforting to know that when you die, you will experience nothing. I empathize, since when I was also an atheist this was one of my greatest comforts. Except, it required a sufficient amount of belief that this is true, but we can’t actually prove that it’s true. It’s simply a matter of faith to believe that there is no afterlife and that consciousness ceases to exist after death.

Only after I researched the Resurrection as the Church proclaims it and found it to be the most likely explanation of the data we have did I finally become a Christian. There were inevitable logical consequences to this newfound understanding of existence; for instance, it became clear to me that (1) God does exist, (2) there is an afterlife, (3) there is judgment for our actions, and (4) there is a Heaven and a Hell.

My advice is to muster up as much integrity from the depths of your soul as you can, and with that integrity, force yourself to realize that you have no proof that God doesn’t exist or that there is no afterlife, and that believing these things to be facts requires just as much faith as Christianity does, unlike your Santa example, which we can solidly prove is untrue. And then once you’ve made this realization, go to your local Catholic book store and ask for some apologetics books detailing the specific doubts you have. Then, read them with all seriousness but most of all with hope that Christianity is true, because an eternal afterlife of pure happiness is nicer than an eternity of non-existence. But don’t let that bias you or affect your integrity, only use it as a means to continue your research without becoming emotionally exhausted or falling into despair.

Addendum: I want to emphasize that I could not be convinced either that God existed or did not exist for most of my life; nor could I be convinced one way or another on the afterlife, the problem of evil, or any other tough theological question. All of these I could see good arguments for and against. The reason is because these problems first of all have no way to be proven true or untrue outside of philosophy, and second of all within philosophy they are based on axioms which were constantly alternating in their reliability. One day I would be convinced that evil doesn’t exist, and the next day after some life experienced mingled with further research on philosophy I was convinced it very well might exist. Only after I researched the Resurrection and found it to be logically and historically reliable did the answers to these and more questions came naturally and in order. Of course, it took several years and plenty of research, but it wasn’t impossible as I was taught to believe by my agnostic and atheist family and friends my whole life.

 

[NonServiam]

It may not be depressing AFTER you die but PRIOR to dying it is very depressing (or at least would be IF I did not believe there were something more).

But why would that be? If you’re not depressed by the thought that you didn’t exist in 1891, you have no reason to be depressed by the thought that you won’t exist in 2091.

I’ve got thousands of eye witnesses who testify (many documented and written up. many with impeccable reputations, incuding close friends that I know personally) that what they have experienced or seen is true

You’re talking about “near death experiences” here?

Indeed, I think it’s beyond question that the brain produces all kinds of funky images for an individual who is dying. It shouldn’t be remotely suprising that when the brain – the organ through which perception occurs – is dying, it start to malfunction and produce all kinds of images culled from what that individual expects to see after death.

Hence, Christians who have NDEs report seeing Jesus or the Virgin Mary, Hindus who have NDEs report seeing Lord Shiva, pagans report seeing their deities, etc., etc.

Nothing about these “eye witness accounts” suggests that these images are anything other than hallucinatory experiences produced by a dying, malfunctioning brain.

If there really were an afterlife and these people were all having an experience of it, then people of different religions would all report consistent visions: but they don’t. The fact that they do not suggests very strongly that the experience is created entirely by their brains and their expectations.

How many can you come up with that can say that there is nothing after death ???

I don’t think you’ve given this enough thought. Sleep on it, and we’ll talk again tomorrow.

 

[arkwright]

It is my prayer and hope that you will not go to hell but will enter the Glory of God’s presence in Heaven .

As some pray the Fatima Prayer : " LEAD ALL SOULS TO HEAVEN " .

As some pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet : " Have mercy on us AND ON THE WHOLE WORLD ".

 

[wcknight]

I’m mainly talking about folks who have seen loved one who have passes away. NDE are only a small part of what people have experienced.

When someone dies a year ago, and you see them at your bed side. Folks take notice. Even though it did not happen for me, good friends that I know personnally experienced this. The fact that it happens so often takes out the fraud and possible delusions aspect of it.

Its one thing to say that some people may be delusional, but there are hundreds of testimonies from very sane folks and folks with high integrity,

Not every one who sees an apparition or vision is dying or nuts.

 

[wcknight]

WHat can be more depressing than believing that everything will just disappear. Life then is meaningless. In a few short years, a hundred at most, its all gone.

IF that’s the case, you should party all day and all night, drink your self into a stupor every day, or rip off and cheat whoever and whenevr you please. What’s the point. There are no rewards and there are no consequences.

 

[sdegutis]

WHat can be more depressing than believing that everything will just disappear. Life then is meaningless. In a few short years, a hundred at most, its all gone.

IF that’s the case, you should party all day and all night, drink your self into a stupor every day, or rip off and cheat whoever and whenevr you please. What’s the point. There are no rewards and there are no consequences.

I think it’s interesting to see Paul’s take on this:
NIV:

If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” Do not be misled; bad company corrupts good character. Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God — I say this to your shame.

Because he’s certain that morality will undoubtedly be affected by throwing away the fact of the resurrection, and putting it out of mind. Which makes sense, because the only true and sure way to perfect morality is through Christ, specifically through His Holy Sacraments.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Actually he was real. He was Saint Nicholas of Myra mixed in with local folklore and customs.

That’s right. I taught my daughter about the real St. Nicholas so there would be no problems later!
**
To our OP here, *I am sad for you and in answer to your question, I would say,
*
You might, but you don’t have to, and I don’t want you to. :sad_bye::imsorry::bighanky:

You are a child:angel1: of God whether you believe it or not, and I pray that you will find your way back to the Church.

We who do believe are to reach out in love, and I hope you know that you don’t have to stay outside the Church forever. Please know you still have a choice. The scripture “I will not always strive with man.” is serious, but as long as you are questioning things, there is hope:harp: for you. These forums are a safe place to ask your questions.

I hope you come back to the Church
In Christ’s Love,
Kathryn Ann

:heaven:

 

[Maryann_C]

@ Non Serviam. I said that I would not entertain you since I doubt your sincerity in being on this forum but I do challenge you to read the book Heaven is For Real. It is a quick read - probably about 5 minutes for someone of your superior intelligence , but then again why bother right ? because I am sure you would not believe the account of a 5 year old boy who talks about things that no one ever talked to him about- clearly his brain “malfunctioned”.
Just as I doubt you believe non- christian history accounts from the time of the 1st century after Jesus. By Flavious Josephus and Tacticus found at the following : law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/jesusaccount.html
For those who don’t want to go to the site here is an excerpt:
"Tacitus offered this comment:

Christus [Jesus], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, and the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

The Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, writing in the 80s or early 90s C.E., indicated that both Jewish leaders and the Roman prefect played roles in the crucifixion of Jesus:
About the same time there lived Jesus, a wise man for he was a performer of marvelous feats and a teacher of such men who received the truth with pleasure. He attracted many Jews and many Greeks. He was called the Christ. Pilate sentenced him to die on the cross, having been urged to do so by the noblest of our citizens; but those who loved him at the first did not give up their affection for him. And the tribe of the Christians, who are named after him, have not disappeared to this day.

 

[Maryann_C]

Just incase NS and Posieden or other skeptics are interested in another skeptic’s experience you might want to look up Dr. Maurice Rawlings, MD, a heart surgeon, who has written a number of books on the death experience and clearly shows from his own practice and from the experiences of his patients, that not everyone goes to the light when they die, where there is total love. Many of his patients, after being resuscitated on the operating table, spoke about hell.

Or perhaps NS means this “A curious phenomenon, little known in the West, but familiar to Tibetans, is the delok. In Tibet, delok means returned from death, and traditionally deloks are people who seemingly “die” as a result of an illness, and find themselves traveling in the bardo - one of many Tibetan Buddhist afterlife states. They visit the hell realms, where they witness the judgment of the dead and the suffering of hell, and sometimes they go to paradises and Buddha realms. They can be accompanied by a deity, who protects them and explains what is happening. After a week the delok is sent back to the body with a message from the Lord of Death for the living, urging them toward spiritual practice and a beneficial way of life” …hmmm sounds just like a different way of understanding teh Christian experience from a non-Christian understanding. source: near-death.com/experiences/buddhism02.html

 

[Maryann_C]

Nothing about these “eye witness accounts” suggests that these images are anything other than hallucinatory experiences produced by a dying, malfunctioning brain.

If there really were an afterlife and these people were all having an experience of it, then people of different religions would all report consistent visions: but they don’t. The fact that they do not suggests very strongly that the experience is created entirely by their brains and their expectations.
/QUOTE]

If all reports from Buddhists to atheists to Christians experienced EXACTLY the same NDE Non Serv would simply claim that ‘proves’ that it is a particular sequence the brain goes though when it is deprived of oxygen, because NS does not WANT to believe.

 

[Lady_Love]

Jesus says, “If you are not for Me, you are against Me.”

Jesus did exist and He is who He says He is. Jesus was the only man in history who’s life was foretold before His birth. He fulfilled over 500 prophecies (which has a mathematical probability of 1 in 1000000000000000…(156 zeros). He rose from the dead with over 500 witnesses. And His presence still has the power to create divisions 2000 years later. He said He was a sign of contradiction, meaning everyone will have to choose which will cause a division between those who believe and those who don’t.

If you say you don’t believe because of logical reasons maybe this information might send you on a different course. If you were brought up Catholic then you were baptized which means that God chose you. Jesus came to SAVE not condemn but you cannot be saved unless you choose Him. Hell is ultimately your choice and God honors your decision. There will be no one to blame but yourself. Eternity is a long time and I suggest you search your heart. You cannot claim ignorance anymore. “Let he who has ears to hear, hear.”