Will Jesus judge people into heaven (through Him) or Hell based on conduct?

[sara888]

****When people asked Jesus: Lord, will only a few will be saved?, He did not say to them: have faith that all will be saved.

He did not satisfy their only intellectual curiosity. Instead, he responded simply and decisively: Attempt to enter through the narrow gate (Lk 13, 23-24),

Chose the way of the commandments. In this fashion, Jesus challenged them to abandon their purely intellectual pursuits. Moreover, he spoke deeply to their consciences to undertake a radical conversion of heart and faith in the Good News, otherwise if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did! (Lk 13, 3 )****

Sara

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Getting to heaven or hell is based on conduct … but having a personal relationship is part of our conduct. If we have faith and no works, we are damned. If we have works and no faith, we are damned. If we have both we stand a chance of being saved.

I agree with whoever said atheists are in deep trouble. However morally righteous they may be, my guess is that if they dissociate themselve from Christ in this life … they will dissociate themselves from Him in the next life too. After all, atheism breaks the 1st and most important Commandment in the worst way possible.

 

[Matt16_18]

There is no option in this poll that a Catholic can choose that is correct.

No one merits heaven because of his or her behavior! If the Fall had never occurred, all men and women would have been living happy, holy and sin free lives, and yet, not one of us would have merited the beatific vision because of our holy and sin free lives. Heaven is an unmerited, unearned, free gift from God, period.

Damnation, on the other hand, is something that is earned by our behavior. A person is damned because he or she dies in unrepentant mortal sin. Damnation is the wage due deadly sin.… the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
Romans 6:23

Merit: The reward which God promises and gives to those who love him and by and by his grace perform good works. One cannot “merit” justification or eternal life, which are the free gift of God …

Glossary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[francisca]

Hi Sara

**
If God has asked us to keep his commandments then if we truly believe in him and love him we obey and abide in him.
**

Yes.

You cannot seperate the Faith/commandment keeping because Faith as you claim leads us to good works. So if you take away the works or deeds how are you remaining faithful.?

how does this not affect your salvation, if one just believes but does not follow.?

Exactly. I am not refuting this.

And if this person falls away or walks away from their faith can they come back.?

If a person falls away, he can always comeback. He shall confess that he has make a mistake, thus willing to correct his way. But wether he will be able to correct his way or not, does not depend on his own strength.

This is where the struggle is. And wether he will win this struggle does not depend on “his own strength”, but rather how fast he hold on to his faith in God’s Love.

God never leaves us, however we can walk away from him.

If a person walks away, God will never leave Him. But this person does not believe it anymore (that God is still by his side). Thus he has lost his faith.

Here is the tricky part : he has lost his faith FIRST before he walks away (purposefully).

And what did is he lose? He loses his believe that God is faithful no matter what.

This is FAITH : to believe that God is faithful no matter what.

If he is not purposefully walks away, but drift away slowly, this is the stage when the struggle of faith is the key to winning or losing it. This is where persistent bad habbit, addictions, worries and fear, depression etc play their parts to hammer on his faith all the time. This is when one should never never never trust “own good works” as the key to salvation.

Whoever wants to follow God, he shall never trust himself nor his own strength to do good works to win the battle.

Who did Jesus write the commandments for anyway.?

The ten commandments are for sinners. If we don’t sin, we are not under the ten commandments aren’t we? And no, we do not intend to break them, nor omit them. The law is always there to judge whoever break it.

If you are talking about Jesus’s new commandment to love one another, now, that is Grace.

Nobody can always love unless he walks with God in Jesus Name.

Romans 3:19-27

19
Now we know that what the law 4 says is addressed to those under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world stand accountable to God,
20
since no human being will be justified in his sight 5 by observing the law; for through the law comes consciousness of sin.
21
6 But now 7 the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets,
22
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
23
all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.
24
They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus,
25
whom God set forth as an expiation, 8 through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed,
26
through the forbearance of God–to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and justify the one who has faith in Jesus.
27
What occasion is there then for boasting? 9 It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith. 10

 

[francisca]

Gilbert Keith:

I agree with whoever said atheists are in deep trouble. However morally righteous they may be, my guess is that if they dissociate themselve from Christ in this life …

I think I understand why Gilbert Keith come up with “atheism” here.

An atheist can try to do good and can hold “high moral” standard. This is not enough for those who believe in Jesus’s salvation. Our goodness, no matter how good cannot jump out from self unless with faith.

I do not condemn morality though. Our good works are good. Our efforts are good too. I am sure that all good works will get good rewards, even from the secular world.

But when we are talking about salvation unto eternal life… we need more than our own “free will to choose good and to do good”.

We are to work hard, with faith in God as our resting place. What I mean is we are to work all the time, but how do we work is driven with what we believe.

 

[Milliardo]

francisca:

This is where the struggle is. And wether he will win this struggle does not depend on “his own strength”, but rather how fast he hold on to his faith in God’s Love.

Does not holding fast to God indeed depend on one’s own ablities and strengths?

If a person walks away, God will never leave Him. But this person does not believe it anymore (that God is still by his side). Thus he has lost his faith.

Here is the tricky part : he has lost his faith FIRST before he walks away (purposefully).

Which perfectly contradicts OSAS, and sola fide in general.

And what did is he lose? He loses his believe that God is faithful no matter what.

So he did lose his faith then…

If he is not purposefully walks away, but drift away slowly, this is the stage when the struggle of faith is the key to winning or losing it. This is where persistent bad habbit, addictions, worries and fear, depression etc play their parts to hammer on his faith all the time. This is when one should never never never trust “own good works” as the key to salvation.

I think you got that part wrong, for indeed again bad habits are a matter of, well, habit. To replace them then, what is needed? Isn’t it to replace them with good ones then? If one is worried or depressed, what should one do? Isn’t it to do something else to distract one from that depression or worry? Note that we’re not pointing out that good works are, by itself, saving but that the necessity of them cannot be devalued not discounted.

The ten commandments are for sinners. If we don’t sin, we are not under the ten commandments aren’t we? And no, we do not intend to break them, nor omit them. The law is always there to judge whoever break it.

The Ten Commandments is for everyone; God did not intend them for sinners only. It’s a reminder of what one ought to do, not to do. Jesus only made them more positive: love God and love your neighbor, which is really the sum of the Commandments. Jesus never exempted anyone from those two, did He now?

If you are talking about Jesus’s new commandment to love one another, now, that is Grace.

Is not the Ten Commandments Grace in itself? Did they not come from God? Yes, it was made in such a way as to be quite negative in some aspects, but they were no different from what Jesus said (see my previous point above).

Romans 3:19-27

19
Now we know that what the law 4 says is addressed to those under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world stand accountable to God,
20
since no human being will be justified in his sight 5 by observing the law; for through the law comes consciousness of sin.
21
6 But now 7 the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets,
22
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
23
all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.
24
They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus,
25
whom God set forth as an expiation, 8 through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed,
26
through the forbearance of God–to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and justify the one who has faith in Jesus.
27
What occasion is there then for boasting? 9 It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith. 10

Interestingly, Scott Hahn did point out that in this passage, Paul’s point is works of the Law, not good works per se. Paul should be seen in the light of Christ then: that faith is not merely meant to be taken as belief, or proclaiming Jesus to be Savior, but a vibrant, living faith. That means that from faith must come forth action, and Jesus time and again taught that repeatedly. So the principle of works alone, as Paul indicates in verse 27, is indeed not consistent to the Gospel as much as the principle of faith alone; faith and works go together then. Thus we see Paul affirm in Romans 2:5-8 that our Judgment would be based on our works, because they are the concrete testimony to our faith. Note how the two go together perfectly.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Matt16_18:

There is no option in this poll that a Catholic can choose that is correct.

No one merits heaven because of his or her behavior! If the Fall had never occurred, all men and women would have been living happy, holy and sin free lives, and yet, not one of us would have merited the beatific vision because of our holy and sin free lives. Heaven is an unmerited, unearned, free gift from God, period.

Damnation, on the other hand, is something that is earned by our behavior. A person is damned because he or she dies in unrepentant mortal sin. Damnation is the wage due deadly sin.… the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

Romans 6:23

Merit: The reward which God promises and gives to those who love him and by and by his grace perform good works. One cannot “merit” justification or eternal life, which are the free gift of God …

Glossary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

Hello Matt,

The poll question specifically states that people who go to heaven, will go through Jesus saving sacrifice. No one can “merit” or “earn” their way around needing to go through Jesus to go to heaven. The poll question does not question the absolute need for Jesus blood for a person to go to heaven. The poll question is asking if those who go to heaven through Jesus blood or hell without Jesus blood will be judged according to their conduct.

In scripture Jesus clearly points out that He will judge people according to their conduct as to who recieves His precious gift of blood and heaven and who does not recieve it.

Do you agree?

NAB JOH 5:27
"The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned."

NAB REV 22:12

"Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves

NAB ROM 2:6 (St. Paul is speaking)

. . . when he will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing right; wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

NAB MAT 19:16

“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

NAB MAT 13:47-50
That is how it will be at the end of the world. Angels will go out and separate the wicked from the just and hurl the wicked into the fiery furnace, where they will wail and grind their teeth.

 

[francisca]

Milliardo:

Does not holding fast to God indeed depend on one’s own ablities and strengths?

No, what I mean by holding on fast to faith is to believe that God is faithful “to me” no matter what. The person who hold on fast to this faith is not neccessarily having “good works” yet.

Note that we’re not pointing out that good works are, by itself, saving but that the necessity of them cannot be devalued not discounted.

OK fair enough. My point is to give stress on HOW to change bad habits into good ones using the weapon of faith in Christ.

I would just remind you that our church, the roman catholic church, has made a joint declaration with the Lutherans regarding the doctrine of Justification. The contents of that joint declaration are extremely important for the future of the church.

The most important point in that Joint Declaration is : that we are as catholics can be “assured of salvation” by looking at Jesus Christ, although remain “unsure looking at self”.

To repeatedly say that “our salvation” is not sure is to deny God’s faithfulness. We are not to deny faith, just because we want to win empty talks with the protestants.

The joint declaration was made and signed for the purpose to end this kind of empty talks : to identify self as catholics by denying “faith alone” but end up in “works alone” morality & practices, because this might create further errors if not resolved. Separation does create errors.

The Lutherans agree that faith without works is dead.

 

[Milliardo]

francisca:

To repeatedly say that “our salvation” is not sure is to deny God’s faithfulness. We are not to deny faith, just because we want to win empty talks with the protestants.

Actually, to say one is not sure is not to deny God’s faithfulness, but actually to give God full power over us. Meaning, He is after all Judge, so we should give all due reverence to what would be His Judgment, not what we perceive our judgment will be. There is a difference there. Even Paul himself said that hope that is seen is not hope, for indeed who can hope for something that he already has?

 

[sara888]

**

francisca:

The ten commandments are for sinners. If we don’t sin, we are not under the ten commandments aren’t we? And no, we do not intend to break them, nor omit them. The law is always there to judge whoever break it.

If you are talking about Jesus’s new commandment to love one another, now, that is Grace.

Nobody can always love unless he walks with God in Jesus Name.

**


We are always under the Moral Laws of God, you say if we dont sin we are not obligated.? Absurd.

We must always abide the ten commandments
The ten commandments are for believers, and we all break one or another at some point in our lives if you say you do not sin then that is a lie, do you love your neighbor as yourself at all times.? The whole idea is to follow them as God has required us to do ,

If we have faith in him and love him we follow his laws. When we do break any, we become truly sorry or repent and do not comit them again, as this is being truly sorry.

Again, Salvation depends on Faith first then we are judged on our obedience to this faith in Christ.

Sara

 

[sara888]

**Fransica, BTW

antinomian as ‘one who maintains that the moral law is not binding upon Christians under the law of grace.

OSAS and the Assured Salvation Sect’s teach and profess antinomianism

These sect’s profess they should keep Gods Laws, however if they dont they are still saved by grace and or faith. This is just not biblical.

‘Do we then make void the law, through faith? God forbid!

Sara**

 

[Matt16_18]

sara888:

antinomian as ‘one who maintains that the moral law is not binding upon Christians under the law of grace.

OSAS and the Assured Salvation Sect’s teach and profess antinomianism

Some Protestants that believe in a form of OSAS that is the heresy of antinomianism. Southern Baptists for instance. But not all forms of the OSAS heresy are the heresy of antinomianism.

The Calvinists have their own unique version of the OSAS heresy that is distinct from the heresy of antinomianism. The Calvinists would never concede that one of the “elect” can commit any sin he feels like committing with the assurance that he will never be damned. Instead, the Calvinists would claim that irresistible grace would force a totally depraved man to live a holy life. The erroneous notion of irresistible grace is the straw foundation upon which the Calvinist version of OSAS is built.

 

[sara888]

**Antinomianism is Antinomianism no matter how you slice it or dice it .!

Mainstream Traditional Protestants, Lutherans, Episcopaliens, etc, feel one can lose their salvation.

Antinomianism is strictly for the Assured Salvation Sect, OSAS, Baptist, Blessed Assurance, which believe they have guranteed salvation through Faith alone.

I am Catholic, but I do not believe Most protestants profess and teach Antinomianism, to reiterate its mainly the fundies, and extremist sects. Most Orthodox/Traditional Protestant Sects believe in the Justification/Salvation doctrine**.

Sara

 

[Steven_Merten]

francisca:

If you are talking about Jesus’s new commandment to love one another, now, that is Grace.

Hello Francisca,

What! New commandment?

God sums up His ten commandments with the second Great commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus Himself tells us that the whole Law is founded on the two great commandments.

Jesus quotes Moses and God’s summation of the ten commandments and all God’s laws, when he gives us the command to love our neighbor as ourselves.

**NAB LEV 19:17 **

"You shall not bear hatred for your brother in your heart. Though you may have to reprove your fellow man, do not incur sin because of him. Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your fellow countrymen. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD." **NAB 2JO 1:5 **

But now, my Lady, I would make this request of you (not as if I were writing you some new commandment; rather, **it is a commandment we have had from the start): let us love one another. This love involves our walking according to the commandments, and as you have heard from the beginning, the commandment is the way in which you should walk.**NAB ROM 13 Love Fulfills the Law. Owe no debt to anyone except the debt that binds us to love one another. He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not murder; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and any other commandment there may be are all summed up in this, saying (namely) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love never wrongs the neighbor, hence love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[Matt16_18]

Steven Merten:

The poll question specifically states that people who go to heaven, will go through Jesus saving sacrifice.

Actually, the poll question says nothing about the atoning sacrifice of Jesus.

No one can “merit” or “earn” their way around needing to go through Jesus to go to heaven.

Agreed.

The poll question does not question the absolute need for Jesus blood for a person to go to heaven.

If that was the intent of your poll question, then I agree with this too.

The poll question is asking if those who go to heaven through Jesus blood or hell without Jesus blood will be judged according to their conduct.

Jesus teaches that the goats will be separated from the sheep at the Judgement of the Nations. The criteria that determines if one is a sheep or a goat is based on how a person treated the poor, the naked, the hungry, the thirsty, the prisoner …

If one wants to be with the sheep, he must be charitable to the needy. Yes, Jesus will judge us about how faithfully we kept his commandment to love one another. The damned will have earned their damnation because of their mean spiritedness and their lack of charity. The saved, however, will behold the beatific vision as an unearned, unmerited gift from God.

In scripture Jesus clearly points out that He will judge people according to their conduct as to who recieves His precious gift of blood and heaven and who does not recieve it.

The precious blood of Jesus was shed for all men, and he freely offers forgiveness through the precious blood to even the worst of the goats. The goat doesn’t have to become charitable before he receives forgiveness, he must only be repentant for his selfishness and make a firm vow to become charitable.

 

[Steven_Merten]

francisca:

To repeatedly say that “our salvation” is not sure is to deny God’s faithfulness. We are not to deny faith, just because we want to win empty talks with the protestants.

The joint declaration was made and signed for the purpose to end this kind of empty talks : to identify self as catholics by denying “faith alone” but end up in “works alone” morality & practices, because this might create further errors if not resolved. Separation does create errors.

The Lutherans agree that faith without works is dead.

Hello francisca,

If you read the Joint Lutheran Catholic Statement on Justification, you will see that St. Paul is quoted or refferenced ten to fifteen times more often than Jesus. All of the quotes from Jesus telling us to obey the commandments if we wish to go to heaven, and the quotes from Jesus that He will judge us into heavan according to our conduct were banned from the document. Why? Because Jesus teaching does not fit into Luther’s teaching.

The document was signed? Pope John Paul II was present but he did not sign the document. He no doubt knew he could not sign such a document which was so deceptive in intentionally banishing Jesus’ teachings on what we must do to go to heaven.

My priest has warned us not to use the Joint Document on Justification to understand what we must do to go to heaven. My priest warns that it is only to be used as an ecumenical tool.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

 

[sara888]

**Thats correct steve.

The present Joint Declaration has this intention: namely, to show that on the basis of their dialogue the subscribing Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church are now able to articulate a common understanding of our justification by God’s grace through faith in Christ.

It does not cover all that either church teaches about justification; it does encompass a consensus on basic truths of the doctrine of justification and shows that the remaining differences in its explication are no longer the occasion for doctrinal condemnations.

Sara**

 

[Matt16_18]

Steven Merten:

The document was signed? Pope John Paul II was present but he did not sign the document. He no doubt knew he could not sign such a document which was so deceptive in intentionally banishing Jesus’ teachings on what we must do to go to heaven.

Say what? Pope John Paul allowed this “deceptive” document to be promulgated and posted on the Vatican website, but he was not personally part of the conspiracy to banish the teachings of Jesus. Where did you get this idea?

Start a thread on the JDDJ and show us where the deception lies!

 

[Lazerlike42]

It’s not deceptive by intention, but it can be deceptive when you read it if you don’t know what you’re talking about. A lot of the Catholic truth contained in it are reworded into Lutheran terminology. In other words, Lutherans already believed a lot of things that Catholics do, but they used different words for it so they thought Catholics believed somethine else. Some of the things are worded in the Lutheran way, so it can confuse people. So technically, it is correct, but it doesn’t seem to be.

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea1.asp

That should give a decent perspective on it.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Matt16_18:

Say what? Pope John Paul allowed this “deceptive” document to be promulgated and posted on the Vatican website, but he was not personally part of the conspiracy to banish the teachings of Jesus. Where did you get this idea?

Start a thread on the JDDJ and show us where the deception lies!

Hello Matt,

Do you agree that St. Paul is quoted or refferenced ten to fifteen times more often than Jesus in the document? Do you agree that all the times Jesus tells us to obey the commandments if we wish to go to heaven, and those times Jesus tells us He will judge according to our conduct are withheld from the document?

Would you not agree that many believe the document to be ansering the question, “What must I do to go to heaven?”. Would you not agree that Jesus answers this question with “If you wish to enter into life, obey the commandments.” and feed the poor? Would you not agree that to banish Jesus teachings on what we must do to go to heaven, from a document which gives the image that it is answering this question, is deception?

vatican.va/roman_curia/p…aration_en.html

Ecumenical unity is not worth denying Jesus teachings on what we must do to go to heaven.