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Will Marriage Solve Priests' Problems? A Married Catholic Priest Advocates Celibacy for Priests
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Many of the usual objections to married priests are full of hot air.
What’s hardly ever mentioned is that the early Church was full of married priests and did quite well.
With the manpower shortage the way it is, I’d say it would be solved overnight. Moreover, a great many Protestant ministers who have looked seriously into Catholicism may take another serious look and come in, some possibly bringing their congregations with them.
As for racking up medical bills and college tuition bills for the priests’ kids, Protestant seem to handle that without resentment. Should Catholics not be just as good as Protestants helping out their pastors?
What’s hardly ever mentioned is that the early Church was full of married priests and did quite well.
With the manpower shortage the way it is, I’d say it would be solved overnight. Moreover, a great many Protestant ministers who have looked seriously into Catholicism may take another serious look and come in, some possibly bringing their congregations with them.
As for racking up medical bills and college tuition bills for the priests’ kids, Protestant seem to handle that without resentment. Should Catholics not be just as good as Protestants helping out their pastors?
po18guy
Well-known member
I, for one, do not believe that it will help one bit. The slackening of discipline has never been good for any militant organization that I am aware of.Many of the usual objections to married priests are full of hot air.
What’s hardly ever mentioned is that the early Church was full of married priests and did quite well.
With the manpower shortage the way it is, I’d say it would be solved overnight. Moreover, a great many Protestant ministers who have looked seriously into Catholicism may take another serious look and come in, some possibly bringing their congregations with them.
As for racking up medical bills and college tuition bills for the priests’ kids, Protestant seem to handle that without resentment. Should Catholics not be just as good as Protestants helping out their pastors?
Not to mention that Priests consider it a gift. Would we deny Priests that gift?
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boomerang
Guest
Every protestant minister I have ever known has had to get a second job to support his family. How can a priest be expected to deliver the sacrament of the sick at odd hours when he is at work on his other job? I suppose if the parish had more than one priest, they could be ‘on call’ but many parishes can’t afford more than one priest.Many of the usual objections to married priests are full of hot air.
What’s hardly ever mentioned is that the early Church was full of married priests and did quite well.
With the manpower shortage the way it is, I’d say it would be solved overnight. Moreover, a great many Protestant ministers who have looked seriously into Catholicism may take another serious look and come in, some possibly bringing their congregations with them.
As for racking up medical bills and college tuition bills for the priests’ kids, Protestant seem to handle that without resentment. Should Catholics not be just as good as Protestants helping out their pastors?
Also, the early church can’t be compared to the modern church at all, financially. Totally different situations.
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Abu
Guest
For historical accuracy the reality is that while the fact of priestly celibacy is a discipline, it is also more than a discipline because it is an Apostolic norm from the choices made by Jesus, and Sacred Scripture attests to its roots. The celibacy required for priests from the apostles was mandatory, and obligatory, and yes, they did very well.
From the beginning, continence was required for priest and bishop – for Early Church Tradition the most important studies are: Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy, by Fr. Christian Cochini, S.J.(Ignatius, San Francisco, 1990);* The Case for Clerical Celibacy*, by Alfons Maria Cardinal Stickler (Ignatius, San Francisco, 1995); Celibacy in the Early Church, by Fr. Stefan Heid, (Ignatius, San Francisco, 2000).
Based on solid documentation, these authors show that although one cannot speak of celibacy in the strict sense of the word (not being married), it is certain that since apostolic times the Church had as a norm that men elevated to the deaconate, priesthood and the episcopate should observe continence. If candidates happened to be married – a very common occurrence in the early Church – they were supposed to cease, with the consent of their spouses, not only marital life but even cohabitation under the same roof.
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SecretGarden
Guest
I happen to know several pastors who are married and have several children which are managing their ministerial duties as well as their family duties quite well. One of them is also an ordained woman minister therefore we cannot use that argument. Pastors learn to manage their time it is that simple. Furthermore most priests have families such as siblings, nieces and nephews, parents, aunts and uncles that they see as much as their schedules permits. I know many priests who are very close with their families and some of which don’t live nearby therefore it is safe to say, if the priest knew he was going to be busy or away, it would be his responsibility to have someone cover him. So we cannot use the excuse if he had a family, and an emergency arose, he wouldn’t have time to give the sacrament of the sick.
Plus other Catholic rites allow their priests to marry as a result, it should be an option for the Roman rite. If the Greek Orthodox gives priests two options either celibacy or marriage and if the priests in the Greek Orthodox have these two options, at least give the Catholic priests this option afterall not everyone is called to married or celibate life.
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Abu
Guest
Such a lack of understanding and knowledge of the Church’s tradition helps no one.
It is a discipline, BUT it is also an Apostolic Norm from the very beginning, which will remain as St John Paul II emphasized in the Apostolic Exhortation Pastores Dabo Vobis, ( I Will Give You Shepherds) #29, 1993). This should be carefully studied so that we can more closely know what are the reasons and the reality.
Priestly Celibacy and Its Roots in Christ … Interview with Fr McGovern
National Catholic REGISTER, May 19-25, 2002
“Recent scholarship on the history of celibacy in both the Easter and Western Church has shown that there is a considerable body of evidence in favour of the argument that priestly celibacy is of apostolic origin, based on Christ’s invitation to the Twelve to leave all things and follow him (cf. Mt 19:29). [5] Indeed, John Paul II points out in his 1979 Holy Thursday *Letter to Priests *that celibacy is so closely linked to the language of the Gospel that it refers back to the teaching of Christ and to apostolic tradition.”
Note:
[5] Christian Cochini, Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1990; Roman Cholij, Clerical Celibacy in East and West, Fowler Wright, Leominister, 1988; Alfons M. Stickler, The Case for Clerical Celibacy: Its Historical Development and Theological Foundations, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1995; Stanley L. Jaki, Theology of Priestly Celibacy, Front Royal, Va., 1997; Stefan Heid, Celibacy in the Early Church, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2000.
christendom-awake.org/pages/mcgovern/ncrinterview.htm
A Bishop’s Experience with Married Priests
VATICAN CITY, OCT 22, 1999 (ZENIT)
At the Synod of Bishops for Europe Bishop Virgil Bercea of Oradea Mare of the Rumanians, is young, joyful, strong in faith, polite, candid, clear-thinking and certain. Like other countries of Eastern Europe, Rumania has Catholic priests of the Eastern rite who are married.
“Celibacy is not a problem for us, it is a choice,” Bishop Bercea said. "I think the debate that has taken place in the West is characterized by ignorance on the subject. In our Church, 20% of the priests of the Greek-Catholic rite are married, while the others, of the Latin rite, are celibate. In my diocese, I have married priests with children and, in general, they have more problems than the others, as those who are celibate can dedicate themselves full-time to the mission, while those who are married must give part of their time and concern to guide and support a family. I understand them and help them, but it must be admitted that family life is a huge commitment. [My emphasis].
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
There are many ways to get around celibacy as a requirement, and keep it as an option.
The Orders, for example, could continue to be celibate.
Likewise, you could let older deacons who have raised their families and are financially independent into the priesthood.
Letting priests be married in no way impinges on the right of priests to choose celibacy, and I’d even like to see only celibate priests allowed to be candidates for episcopal office.
That would be one way to limit nepotism, and was probably one of the reasons celibacy was made mandatory in the Middle Ages for all priests and bishops.
Not that it stopped a lot of priests and bishops from having children on the sly.
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gospelofjohn
Guest
By abandoning, or making an option, the discipline of celibacy, a priest can no longer be fully, 100% devoted to his flock. He now has to tend to his personal family and his flock. One of the two groups is going to get left out.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Many priests nowadays are so exhausted by the demands madde upon because there are so few priests, that I don’t see how it can be said they can be 100% devoted to their flock or that their flock can get the kind of personal attention they deserve because they are spread so thin.
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boomerang
Guest
Yes, I see that happening. If there were an option for marriage, I’m sure it would attract more men, and that would be a relief for priests who serve a parish by themselves. I just wonder if there is money enough to pay more priests, and married priests would need more money than single priests. But I do think married priests might be a little less devoted to his parishioners than a single priest. But who knows? We should ask the Orthodox how it works for them.
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Gorgias
Guest
That’s a common assertion, but upon what is it based? ‘Conventional wisdom’, that suggests that there’s a ton of married men out there longing to be priests?
Imagine a husband coming home to his wife saying, “dear, I want to give up my job and go off to seminary for six years! And, here’s the best part! When I come back, I’ll be in a parish, and have wicked terrible hours! 24/7/365 on-call, pretty much! And wait – that’s not all! My salary – oh, it’s gonna go way, way down! And, we’ll have to move every 6 to 10 years to a new parish and a new school district! So, to sum up, I won’t be able to be there for you and the kids in quite the way that I’ve been able to, and when it comes to compensation, we won’t be able to live the kind of life that we’d been planning for! Doesn’t that sound awesome?!?!?!?”
Here’s the truth: ministry is hard. It pays poorly, the hours are terrible, and the demands are intense. Here’s what the statistics tell us: even in those denominations in which there are married and female ministers, no one is flocking to seminaries. There’s some indication that, due to the worsened job situation, some are turning to seminary. But, that doesn’t point to a ‘solution’, let alone an ‘overnight solution’. If we’re looking for silver bullets, a married clergy isn’t it. Unless, of course, there are other arguments that transcend ‘conventional wisdom’. Got any?
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PolarGuy
Guest
Some of the concepts espoused for preventing priests to marry are very thin.
As to the concept that Catholics won’t want to pay for braces for the priests’ kids…Protestant congregations do.
No money for kids’ braces? Perhaps, for example, dioceses should sell their often luxurious real estate used by bishops. Start with the 5000+ square foot mansion getting a 3000 square foot addition, including hot tub, to be used by the Archbishop of Newark, NJ, and that has caused such a firestorm of controversy in that Archdiocese.
But I guess the Archbishop needs a hot tub to minister to his flock.
And speaking of the need to “minister to the flock”…what makes people think priests are now “ministering to their flock” and nothing else? People seem to view priests as such paragons of perfection. Many are just as political, just as ambitious, and just as prone to petty jealousies as are their secular brethren.
I can think of one problem that would be solved by married priests: The priest shortage.
As to the concept that Catholics won’t want to pay for braces for the priests’ kids…Protestant congregations do.
No money for kids’ braces? Perhaps, for example, dioceses should sell their often luxurious real estate used by bishops. Start with the 5000+ square foot mansion getting a 3000 square foot addition, including hot tub, to be used by the Archbishop of Newark, NJ, and that has caused such a firestorm of controversy in that Archdiocese.
But I guess the Archbishop needs a hot tub to minister to his flock.
And speaking of the need to “minister to the flock”…what makes people think priests are now “ministering to their flock” and nothing else? People seem to view priests as such paragons of perfection. Many are just as political, just as ambitious, and just as prone to petty jealousies as are their secular brethren.
I can think of one problem that would be solved by married priests: The priest shortage.
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Abu
Guest
Many who think they are thinking are merely rearranging their prejudices (William James), and ignorant of the greatness and reality of Saint John Paul II who recalled in Pastores Dabo Vobis (I Will Give You Shepherds), 1992:
‘29. The synod fathers clearly and forcefully expressed their thought on this matter in an important proposal which deserves to be quoted here in full: “While in no way interfering with the discipline of the Oriental churches, the synod, in the conviction that perfect chastity in priestly celibacy is a charism, reminds priests that celibacy is a priceless gift of God for the Church and has a prophetic value for the world today. This synod strongly reaffirms what the Latin Church and some Oriental rites require that is, that the priesthood be conferred only on those men who have received from God the gift of the vocation to celibate chastity (without prejudice to the tradition of some Oriental churches and particular cases of married clergy who convert to Catholicism, which are admitted as exceptions in Pope Paul VI’s encyclical on priestly celibacy, no. 42). The synod does not wish to leave any doubts in the mind of anyone regarding the Church’s firm will to maintain the law that demands perpetual and freely chosen celibacy for present and future candidates for priestly ordination in the Latin rite. The synod would like to see **celibacy presented and explained in the fullness of its biblical, theological and spiritual richness, as a precious gift given by God to his Church and as a sign of the kingdom which is not of this world - a sign of God’s love for this world and of the undivided love of the priest for God and for God’s people, with the result that celibacy is seen as a positive enrichment of the priesthood.”(**78)’ [My emphasis].
St John Paul II – hot air, really?
History attests to the reality that celibacy was mandatory and those married priests freely, with the consent of their wives, accepted chastity from the beginning.
Fr Cochini examines the question of when the tradition of priestly celibacy began in the Latin Church, and he is able to trace it back to its origins with the apostles. He examines evidence about the marital status of every known bishop, priest or deacon of the period and gives an exhaustive list of married clerics from apostolic times until the end of the seventh century, a list that includes not only the Western Church, but the East and also the Nestorian, Novatian and Pelagian Church. Then Cochini examines the relevant Church documents for the same period, including council and synod documents, papal letters, ecclesial and even secular legislation as it relates to the problem. He also provides a survey of scholarly literature on the topic. This is the definitive scholarly statement on the discipline of priestly celibacy in the Church East and West.
What Cochini shows through patristic sources and conciliar documentation is that from the beginning of the Church, although married men could be priests, they were required to vow to celibacy before ordination, meaning they intended to live a life of continence. He provides extensive documentation, a bibliography and an index.** “This work is of the first importance. It is the result of serious and extensive research. There is nothing even remotely comparable to this work in this whole century.” **-- Henri Cardinal de Lubac.
5. Celibacy allows the priest’s first priority to be the Church.
“The image used to describe the role of the priest is one of marriage to the Church. Just as marriage is the total gift of self to another, the priesthood requires the total gift of self to the Church. A priest’s first duty is to his flock, while a husband’s first duty is to his wife. Obviously, these two roles will often conflict, as St. Paul noted and as many married priests will tell you. A celibate priest is able to give his undivided attention to his parishioners without the added responsibility of caring for his own family. They are able to pick up and go whenever necessary, whether this involves moving to a new parish or responding to a late-night crisis. Celibate priests are better able to respond to these frequent changes and demands on their time and attention.”
catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0014.html
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Even if a little less dedicated, married priests still offer considerable manpower, as any married Protestant minister does, and as any married Orthodox priest does. And let’s not forget the mighty manpower of the many married preachers of the Gospel in the 1st Century, without whom the Church could not have flourished as it did.
I’m not against a celibate priesthood. For those who want it, they should have it. For those who want to get married, let them get married. Just make sure the bishops are selected from the celibates.
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Gorgias
Guest
Right… because that’s representative.
This situation is newsworthy precisely because it’s a fringe case. “Luxurious real estate” as the standard by which dioceses are measured? Riiiiight…What makes you think that priests are spending their time other than ministering to their flocks?
Non sequitur. People are people, and are prone to individual imperfections; true enough. What is it about married priests that resolves this? Nothing. So… it’s irrelevant.
Nice… but unsubstantiated. Aside from your personal opinion… do you have anything to back up this assertion?
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PolarGuy
Guest
Some points, Gorgias:
–In Chicago, the historic Archbishop’s Residence on North State Parkway has been a landmark since 1885. In 2002, Cardinal Francis George suggested selling the $15 million mansion to help keep the deficit-laden archdiocese from closing more schools, or help pay sexual abuse settlements.
–In Buffalo as of 2007, the Bishop was living in an 11,000-square-foot bishop’s residence. I do not know what has happened since then.
Moreover, even if all dioceses don’t have residences like this, the point is that the US Catholic Church is not so broke that it is unable to support priests’ children. Moreover, arguments that the Church cannot support priests’ dependents fail to account for the fact that a large number of married women in the U.S. in 2014 work outside the home, and there is no reason that is not expected to continue (although some on this site wish it wouldn’t…)
- You are free, I guess, to say things like “Riiiiiggght,” as if to mock my assertion that dioceses often own luxurious real estate. It’s a semi-free country. However, mockery doesn’t change facts like the following:
–In Chicago, the historic Archbishop’s Residence on North State Parkway has been a landmark since 1885. In 2002, Cardinal Francis George suggested selling the $15 million mansion to help keep the deficit-laden archdiocese from closing more schools, or help pay sexual abuse settlements.
–In Buffalo as of 2007, the Bishop was living in an 11,000-square-foot bishop’s residence. I do not know what has happened since then.
Moreover, even if all dioceses don’t have residences like this, the point is that the US Catholic Church is not so broke that it is unable to support priests’ children. Moreover, arguments that the Church cannot support priests’ dependents fail to account for the fact that a large number of married women in the U.S. in 2014 work outside the home, and there is no reason that is not expected to continue (although some on this site wish it wouldn’t…)
- As to asking for backup to the contention that married priests equals more priests…it’s essentially impossible, as you presumably know. Why? Because it is impossible to state with certainty who would become a priest if “facts change” when the facts (i.e. married clergy) have not changed. If that’s not good enough, I’ll just return the favor and ask you: Other than your unsubstantiated opinion, can you back up your (unstated) implication that married priests will not help solve the priest shortage?
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
400 priests in Portugal are looking for a silver bullet For them marriage is the silver bullet.If we’re looking for silver bullets, a married clergy isn’t it. Unless, of course, there are other arguments that transcend ‘conventional wisdom’. Got any?
bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-27686569
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
And then you’ve got those billions of dollars paid out by American dioceses for child abuse.
The Church wouldn’t have money to pay for the priest’s kid’s braces?
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