Will Orthodox and Catholics Reconcile?

[SSTeacher]

dcointin;6931013:

When the subject of the Catholic Church comes up in conversation with my fellow parishioners, it’s always negative. They are very critical of western theology and seem to have no interest in pursuing dialogue toward the goal of reunion. Catholics are heretics, and should return to Orthodoxy, period. I find this attitude very disheartening, but it’s been my personal experience.

What should be their stance in your view?

Curiously,
Mick

SSTeacher;6931598:

What should be their stance in your view?

Curiously,
Mick

Love. What concerns me isn’t that they believe their faith is correct, that is appropriate for people in any church, but their triumphalistic attitude toward others. We are all Christians, and should have a genuine desire for the unity that Christ prayed we would have. Love has no room for pride, hatefulness, and condescenion, but rather humility, which is the foundation of all spiritual virtues. I was guilty of that attitude once as a Lutheran, and I pray that I never am again.

Valid point.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[UniversalistGuy]

SSTeacher;6931598:

dcointin;6931013:

When the subject of the Catholic Church comes up in conversation with my fellow parishioners, it’s always negative. They are * very* critical of western theology and seem to have no interest in pursuing dialogue toward the goal of reunion. Catholics are heretics, and should return to Orthodoxy, period. I find this attitude very disheartening, but it’s been my personal experience.

What should be their stance in your view?

Curiously,
Mick

SSTeacher;6931598:

What should be their stance in your view?

Curiously,
Mick

Love. What concerns me isn’t that they believe their faith is correct, that is appropriate for people in any church, but their triumphalistic attitude toward others. We are all Christians, and should have a genuine desire for the unity that Christ prayed we would have. Love has no room for pride, hatefulness, and condescenion, but rather humility, which is the foundation of all spiritual virtues. I was guilty of that attitude once as a Lutheran, and I pray that I never am again.Valid point.

Respectfully,
Mick

SSTeacher,

A) If you agree that this is a valid point from somebody who is Orthodox like yourself do you also agree it’s a valid point when Christians that are pro-choice and support same-sex marriages say exactly the same thing about Christians that don’t agree with them?

B) In an earlier post you said unity looked like a lost cause and one of the reasons you gave me was the differences in doctrine, “about which there can be no compromise.” If what you said is true then maybe the unity that Christ prayed for isn’t anything to do with some of the finer points of doctrine that Christians feel the need to constantly argue about?

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;6940901:

SSTeacher;6931598:

dcointin;6931013:

When the subject of the Catholic Church comes up in conversation with my fellow parishioners, it’s always negative. They are very critical of western theology and seem to have no interest in pursuing dialogue toward the goal of reunion. Catholics are heretics, and should return to Orthodoxy, period. I find this attitude very disheartening, but it’s been my personal experience.

What should be their stance in your view?

Curiously,
Mick

SSTeacher;6931598:

What should be their stance in your view?

Curiously,
Mick

Love. What concerns me isn’t that they believe their faith is correct, that is appropriate for people in any church, but their triumphalistic attitude toward others. We are all Christians, and should have a genuine desire for the unity that Christ prayed we would have. Love has no room for pride, hatefulness, and condescension, but rather humility, which is the foundation of all spiritual virtues. I was guilty of that attitude once as a Lutheran, and I pray that I never am again.Valid point.

Respectfully,
Mick
:thumbsup:SSTeacher,

A) If you agree that this is a valid point from somebody who is Orthodox like yourself do you also agree it’s a valid point when Christians that are pro-choice and support same-sex marriages say exactly the same thing about Christians that don’t agree with them?

I do so agree.

B) In an earlier post you said unity looked like a lost cause and one of the reasons you gave me was the differences in doctrine, “about which there can be no compromise.”

I did, indeed.

If what you said is true then maybe the unity that Christ prayed for isn’t anything to do with some of the finer points of doctrine that Christians feel the need to constantly argue about?

I’m not ducking the question but I’d like to be clear upon exactly what you’re suggesting as a possibility. Would you be kind enough to enlarge, please?

Cordially,
Mick

 

[UniversalistGuy]

SSTeacher;6941368:

UniversalistGuy;6941187:

SSTeacher,

B) In an earlier post you said unity looked like a lost cause and one of the reasons you gave me was the differences in doctrine, “about which there can be no compromise.”

I did, indeed.

UniversalistGuy;6941187:

If what you said is true then maybe the unity that Christ prayed for isn’t anything to do with some of the finer points of doctrine that Christians feel the need to constantly argue about?

I’m not ducking the question but I’d like to be clear upon exactly what you’re suggesting as a possibility. Would you be kind enough to enlarge, please?

Cordially,
Mick

I’m thinking that with the benefit of hindsight, maybe John 17 ought to be read as not necessarily being referring to doctrine. I’m thinking that because if you view Christianity from the outside there probably isn’t a single Christian doctrine that hasn’t been disputed by somebody inside Christianity. So if you look from the outside at “doctrinal agreement” inside Christianity it’s as if the gates of hell HAVE prevailed against Christianity. It’s chaotic. Do you understand what I’m trying to say?

 

[Nicea325]

You think Catholics are not involved?

Care to provide the evidence?

 

[Hesychios]

Care to provide the evidence?

I was asking a question of Hiskid, basically I want to know what he thinks, since he considers it important enough to mention here, and it obviously influences his opinion about Jerusalem Christians.

Do you have a position on this question? What do you think? Are Catholics involved in the squabbles around the Holy Sepulchre or are they not?

 

[Hiskid1973]

I was asking a question of Hiskid, basically I want to know what he thinks, since he considers it important enough to mention here, and it obviously influences his opinion about Jerusalem Christians.

Do you have a position on this question? What do you think? Are Catholics involved in the squabbles around the Holy Sepulchre or are they not?

I brought it up to show every church has people of all positions operating in the flesh…I’ve never seen news/video about Catholics fighting with stick and brooms, it was Orthodox priest’s…I think it was the CC that walked away from the rest of the churches(Jerusalem, Antioch ect…Sin begets more sin and the fracture kept going to what we have today…Even in the midst of it all people still are coming to Christ…The gates of hell will never prevail…China tried to snuff it and it flourished underground into millions of believers…grace and peace to you…

 

[JDZwiers19]

I just read a comment by a Catholic on another thread to the effect that the Pope is the visible head of the Church and the Orthodox must abandon pride and accept their place in God’s creation. Is that Catholic wrong?

lol, that was me. I took quite a bit heat already are you trying to start a firestorm here too?

 

[UniversalistGuy]

UniversalistGuy;6931721:

I just read a comment by a Catholic on another thread

to the effect that the Pope is the visible head of the Church and the Orthodox must abandon pride and accept their place in God’s creation. Is that Catholic wrong?lol, that was me. I took quite a bit heat already are you trying to start a firestorm here too?

The objections to your remark on that thread came from Orthodox Christians but no Catholic objected to what you said or to the way you said it. So on this thread I asked my question of a Catholic.

 

[SSTeacher]

I’m thinking that with the benefit of hindsight, maybe John 17 ought to be read as not necessarily being referring to doctrine. I’m thinking that because if you view Christianity from the outside there probably isn’t a single Christian doctrine that hasn’t been disputed by somebody inside Christianity. So if you look from the outside at “doctrinal agreement” inside Christianity it’s as if the gates of hell HAVE prevailed against Christianity. It’s chaotic. Do you understand what I’m trying to say?

Indeed I do. And you’re right. If one looks from the outside at “doctrinal agreement” amongst Christians it certainly can seem as if the gates of hell have prevailed against Christianity. But imagine you were inside Christianity. How would you see the situation? I daresay you’d make sense of it by concluding that the people who didn’t believe as you did were proclaiming false doctrines. Then, depending upon how much love you had, you’d either make snide remarks about them and sneer at their beliefs or you’d accept that they were sincere in their faith and treat them with respect while insisting that you couldn’t endorse or validate their beliefs.

I feel it incumbent upon me to discourage you from trying to work your way around, or exclude, doctrine. I can understand why you would want to do so but I respectfully suggest that such an approach is wrongheaded. Our actions, after all, flow from our beliefs. Take an extreme example. One thing that most Christians agree upon is the belief or doctrine that we must love our neighbor. But outside of Christianity, some believe it’s OK for them to eat their neighbor. Ideas have consequences.

Perhaps you should consider setting the question of which doctrines to one side and come back to it after you’ve given thought to the question of whose authority?

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[UniversalistGuy]

Perhaps you should consider setting the question of which doctrines to one side and come back to it after you’ve given thought to the question of whose authority?

I don’t know how to do that. Make it easy for me. Tell me the reasons why aren’t you an Evangelical any more and why do you think the Orthodox Church has authority and the Catholic Church doesn’t? And you’re a teacher so can you do it in one paragraph without lecturing me?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Unreal, and after you learn the dogmas of the Catholic Faith, especially the infallible definitions. If your not yet at that point, then the Council of Trent, the Baltimore Catechism, and the Catechism of Pope Pius X is a good start.

Then when you educate yourself to this point, it becomes crystal clear that which seperates Christology is power and position. And who should be in those positions.

The actual reason for seperation has little more to do with anything but Bread. Once you reach the point of debating Bread, it become evident that your on a quest of ignorance. I’m positive God is quite pissed about this entire subject. In the situation we find ourself in with real EVIL growing ever so strong and becoming a much more formatable opponent than ever before, And we with all our wisdom should debating BREAD?

Of course the argument to this, then becomes, “well we already know Good will win in the end”. Yes, and at what cost?

Time to put petty differences aside for the greater good. Agree to disagree but do the right thing.

There is no good reason for the seperation of the Faith. Personally I believe they ought to sit in the same room together 24/7 untill they reach a compromise which unites the church.

All of mans ugliest qualities surface in this debate.

 

[MelanieAnne]

All of mans ugliest qualities surface in this debate.

If they’re ugly, they’re not really qualities are they? Since quality implies something good.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

I’m positive God is quite pissed about this entire subject.

:tsktsk: :tsktsk: :tsktsk:​

 

[JDZwiers19]

The objections to your remark on that thread came from Orthodox Christians but no Catholic objected to what you said or to the way you said it. So on this thread I asked my question of a Catholic.

The way I see it is that all the division just proves the necessity of a visible head by which the faithful can know the true faith. Christ promised this to the Church in Mathew 16. Read Luke 22:31-33. Why does Christ say the Devil is after them all and then pray for Peter alone? Because his faith alone, his confession of faith, will be protected by Christ so he cannot lead the church astray. This is necessary. History testifies to this. The Pope does not exercise this authority as a tyrant but as a failsafe. It just makes sense. To me anyway.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

UniversalistGuy;6948769:

The objections to your remark on that thread came from Orthodox Christians but no Catholic objected to what you said or to the way you said it. So on this thread I asked my question of a Catholic.

The way I see it is that all the division just proves the necessity of a visible head by which the faithful can know the true faith. Christ promised this to the Church in Mathew 16. Read Luke 22:31-33. Why does Christ say the Devil is after them all and then pray for Peter alone? Because his faith alone, his confession of faith, will be protected by Christ so he cannot lead the church astray. This is necessary. History testifies to this. The Pope does not exercise this authority as a tyrant but as a failsafe. It just makes sense. To me anyway.

Saying that this is the way you see it is a better wording. You haven’t said anything about people who don’t agree with you being prideful. I like that. The Orthodox Christians see it differently from you but that’s not because they’re proud. It’s because they believe what makes sense to them just like you believe what makes sense to you. But you may be right. I’m still thinking about it.

 

[mark_a]

Does anyone think they will? I doubt Catholics will negotiate their belief in papal infallibility and the Pope’s primacy and I don’t think the Orthodox will want to negotiate many things as well. Does anyone think it’s a lost cause? Another problem lies in the Filioque

EDIT: I also feel that if it comes to these group being reunited, I believe the Orthodox will be the ones who will have to risk more. How does that make the Orthodox feel?

The Orthodox may see a need for closer ties w/ Catholics as the Islamization of eastern Europe continues.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

The Orthodox may see a need for closer ties w/ Catholics as the Islamization of eastern Europe continues.

Compared to the Islamization of western Europe as well? I think both sides will need each other in the coming centuries. I don’t see them being unified like in the good ol’ days before the 11th century, but reconciliation can at least soften the previous years.

 

[JDZwiers19]

The Orthodox may see a need for closer ties w/ Catholics as the Islamization of eastern Europe continues.

That is the same scenario that lead to the crusades which was largely responsible for the final schism due to tragic events like the sacking of Constantinople. It would be incredible if that is what lead to reunion.

 

[Nine_Two]

That is the same scenario that lead to the crusades which was largely responsible for the final schism due to tragic events like the sacking of Constantinople. It would be incredible if that is what lead to reunion.

Well I don’t quite see the Catholics sacking an Orthodox town anytime in the near future (or vise versa).

Although I’d probably say Islamification is a bigger problem in the West than the East. The East already knows what it is to be under the thumb of Islam, the West still has to learn this lesson.