Will Pell be defrocked?

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The only difference here is that mr mccarrick was a generally unlikable and creepy guy. Easily condemned. Pell, is likable in comparison and no one likes it when one of their "own"falls.
No, the difference is that there are multiple people who have publicly issued allegations against McCarrick. Plus there were rumors about McCarrick for years, so much so that he apparently had limitations placed on him by the Pope Benedict due to the rumors.

All of the multiple allegations against Pell have been “withdrawn, discharged or discontinued.” Unless I’m mistaken, there haven’t been years of rumors about Pell.

NOTE: ONCE AGAIN, I’m not saying he’s innocent. I’m saying let’s wait this thing out. If he’s granted an appeal, then we must wait it out. If he’s not granted an appeal, then this will be over.
 
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Vonsalza:
If young boys are the only people they ever see in relative privacy, well… 2 and 2 folks.
No. That’s just not how pedophilia works.

The abuse rate is actually somewhat higher by married clergy (and the Catholic church actually has the lowest rate in the US).
The issue isn’t simply pedophilia. It’s an intimate void and the only folks most of these priests are often alone with that can be coerced into physical intimacy are the children of trusting parishioners - typically young boys.
 
There’s no evidence, to my knowledge, that there are proportionately more child abusers among the Catholic priesthood than among the general populace. The big scandal that sets the Catholic situation apart, aside from the fact that clergy should be held to a higher standard, is the cover up.
Though we are now seeing that married abusers in the Southern Baptist Church were protected too…

I have no issue with the Church ordaining more married men to the priesthood… but it won’t mean anything for gay men.
 
I would never want to see an innocent cleric who has served the church be falsely accused. But I feel like we should first get behind the alleged victims, right?

Victims being cast aside and ignored is a huge problem, not only in the church, but in the culture at large.
Yes, we must support victims. But not by abandoning “innocent until proven guilty.”

If victims are automatically believed, then you no longer have “innocent until proven guilty” and then people can use the judicial system to punish their enemies.

Justice must be blind. Every allegation taken seriously. Every lead must be examined and every stone unturned.

In the end, the ONLY thing that matters is the Truth.
 
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make it seem like it is possible that Cardinal Pell is being framed or that this is a lie/hit job.
What am I missing? What possible reason would people have for a hit job against Cardinal Pell?
 
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Yes he will appeal. Ok. So what is your point? Everybody appeals if they can afford it!

I’m just shocked that your view is that the finding was or even could reasonably be the sin or crime here. Given the Church and it’s handling of these situations. Even in the US the Church told the Bishop conference to not do anything. Then during the meetings just said they encourage episcopal conferences to be the ones responsible for the problem. Are you kidding me!? Do you not see the problem here!
Look, I get the human nature. Where i live a priest was just convicted of crimes far worse than Pell. I mean wow, you couldn’t fathom the extent of the crimes. And that is saying something because abuse sexually of boys is bad but this was far worse. The Judge gave the man 25 years. Of course the man claims innocence and that he was set up. A prominent political figure wrote a letter publicly defending the priest because “He helped his family through a difficult time” The Judge rebuked the politician and said he doubts he would have written that letter given the facts that had come out. The politician doubled down on his support. In a sense we are all like a mother of a bank robber here. We don’t ever think our beloved son could do these things. The jury was rigged, He was set up, He is a fall guy, He couldn’t have done it… etc. Think about the psychology a mother applies to not see these things perhaps even because of some guilt and blame on herself, perhaps because she loves her son. What your position is is human nature. It’s reactionary and understandable. It also is wrong. OJ did it. Cosby Did it. Nixon Did it. Clinton Did it. Pell Did it.
 
The only difference here is that mr mccarrick was a generally unlikable and creepy guy. Easily condemned. Pell, is likable in comparison and no one likes it when one of their "own"falls.
I agree. I was saddened to see Pell go down. I was a big fan of his in the aughts.
 
The Church told the USCCB not to do anything when? Not challenging I’m just trying to know when you’re talking about.
 
The Church told the USCCB not to do anything when? Not challenging I’m just trying to know when you’re talking about.
If you’re talking about Pell, he’s in Australia. I don’t think the USCCB has much dominion over him.
 
If his appeal fails I think the Church has pretty much no option but to laicise him.

As for the Australian judicial process, it strikes me as very fair. I was surprised to learn that they still have committal proceedings, a now archaic part of English law that apparently lives on in Australia. The significance of the committal proceedings is that it’s an opportunity for a magistrate to determine whether there’s a basis for the case to proceed to trial. In Pell’s case he did proceed to trial, but with some charges dropped already at that stage. This suggests that the evidence and the basis for the prosecution have received very genuine judicial scrutiny.

The decision to split the case between two trials and to impose reporting restrictions on the earlier trial was also very fair. It guaranteed that the charges heard in the second trial would fall or stand on their own merit without the jury having heard prejudicial material pertaining to unrelated charges. Those other charges have now been dropped, suggesting, again, that prosecutors are applying a strict threshold when deciding what charges to pursue in court.

The fact that the first trial ended in a hung jury is also, to my mind, quite encouraging. Rather than suggesting that the case is weak, I’d argue that it suggests that an Australian jury takes very seriously its responsibility to arrive at a decision that it believes in with certainty. The second jury reportedly deliberated for almost four days, which suggests again that they take their responsibility very seriously. The prosecutors must also have considerable belief in their case to consider it worthwhile to proceed with a second trial.

As for the evidence, I doubt that anyone on this forum was in court to hear the whole trial, so we can only guess the full details of what took place. While people often assume that these cases are simply a matter of one person’s word against another’s, there is actually a lot more to it. The trial lasted four and a half weeks. That’s a long time to study all the evidence laid before the court.

One also has to wonder quite why anybody would make something like this up and stick to his story through a police investigation, committal proceedings, and two long jury trials. That is quite something to go through, and all the more so when you’re doing it under the scrutiny of the entire world’s media.

So I’ll be happy to see what happens when the case reaches the appeal stage. If the conviction is quashed I’ll trust that the Australian courts have reached the correct verdict, but likewise if the conviction is upheld I’ll be happy to trust that he really was guilty.
 
Why can’t you accept this? Can you make your case that this is unjust and the legal system of a civilized western country is the one to be denounced here?
I mean this is getting rather odd.

He isn’t innocent. He is a CONVICTED pedophile. Can you say it in your head? It isn’t that you are saying he is innocent. (You are) It is that you are saying wait and see. the time for that phrase is BEFORE a trial. The presumption of innocence does not extend past a guilty verdict. Even with appeals.
 
Me too. Was even excited about far out rumors and speculation during the conclave of 2013 about Pell.
 
Oh I know I just meant did the Church say not to do anything about mccarrick or the earlier cases.
 
The issue isn’t simply pedophilia. It’s an intimate void and the only folks most of these priests are often alone with that can be coerced into physical intimacy are the children of trusting parishioners - typically young boys.
But, again, the statistics show that this just isn’t the case, and that married clergy abuse at a higher rate than single clergy (the c-word doesn’t seem appropriate in this sentence . . .)
There’s no evidence, to my knowledge, that there are proportionately more child abusers among the Catholic priesthood than among the general populace.
I don’t know about the general populace, but the main study I refer to is out of Penn State about 10 years ago, finding the lowest rate among RCC (I don’t think that EC or EO are large enough to make the study, but the only report I’ve even heard of involved an adult man).
As for the Australian judicial process, it strikes me as very fair. I was surprised to learn that they still have committal proceedings, a now archaic part of English law that apparently lives on in Australia. The significance of the committal proceedings is that it’s an opportunity for a magistrate to determine whether there’s a basis for the case to proceed to trial.
Wait a minute, there are Common Law jurisdictions that don’t have that???

It’s actually enshrined in our Bill of Rights (right to a grand jury for felony, always in federal, but some states use a “preliminary hearing”, or have both paths).

We actually adopted it as a form of “jury veto”–the colonial grand juries had a habit of not indicting patriots for political acts . . .
 
I’m just shocked that your view is that the finding was or even could reasonably be the sin or crime here. Given the Church and it’s handling of these situations. Even in the US the Church told the Bishop conference to not do anything. Then during the meetings just said they encourage episcopal conferences to be the ones responsible for the problem. Are you kidding me!? Do you not see the problem here!
OF COURSE I SEE THE PROBLEM HERE! The Church’s credibility is SHOT. As far as we know, the vast majority of Bishops might be corrupt.
What your position is is human nature. It’s reactionary and understandable. It also is wrong. OJ did it. Cosby Did it. Nixon Did it. Clinton Did it. Pell Did it.
I have NO position. Please understand me… I’m not saying he’s innocent. And frankly, I don’t care what Cardinal Pell says. OF COURSE he’s going to say he’s innocent.

I’m just going by a few things in THIS particular case.
  1. reports say that the evidence was on Pell’s side and that the reason the Jury voted against him was because he didn’t take the stand
  2. during the previous mistrial, the Jury voted 10 to 2 as Not Guilty
  3. His attorneys claim to be confident that he will win the appeal
  4. all allegations against him (except for the one) have “been either withdrawn, discharged or discontinued”
If an appeal is denied or he loses the appeal, I will be satisfied that justice has been rendered.

But what if Pell wins his appeal? Will all the people who are trashing him apologize? Or will they continue to believe he is guilty?

AGAIN, I have NO idea if he is innocent or guilty. I’m simply following what I’m reading. And the fact that people are saying that he was convicted because he didn’t take the stand doesn’t sit well with me.
 
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You have no idea if he is innocent or guilty? Really? I think our conversation is going to be fruitless. However, it is incredibly frustrating to me as a father to run up against your position. It scares me. The Church and the faithful scare me. And I believe in the Church 100 percent with my life and my children’s lives. I also believe the fruit of the devil is the exact problem here.
 
Why can’t you accept this? Can you make your case that this is unjust and the legal system of a civilized western country is the one to be denounced here?
I mean this is getting rather odd.

He isn’t innocent. He is a CONVICTED pedophile. Can you say it in your head? It isn’t that you are saying he is innocent. (You are) It is that you are saying wait and see. the time for that phrase is BEFORE a trial. The presumption of innocence does not extend past a guilty verdict. Even with appeals.
I’m not emotionally invested in this. Read my comment. Based on what I have read: he might have been convicted by the Jury because he didn’t take the stand, not due to the evidence.

Now, if that article by the NC Register is totally wrong, then so be it.

I’m just going to reserve my judgement of the man until after the smoke settles.

That’s it’s. Nothing more than this.

God bless
 
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Hoosier-Daddy:
Why can’t you accept this? Can you make your case that this is unjust and the legal system of a civilized western country is the one to be denounced here?
I mean this is getting rather odd.

He isn’t innocent. He is a CONVICTED pedophile. Can you say it in your head? It isn’t that you are saying he is innocent. (You are) It is that you are saying wait and see. the time for that phrase is BEFORE a trial. The presumption of innocence does not extend past a guilty verdict. Even with appeals.
I’m not emotionally invested in this. Read my comment. Based on what I have read: he was convicted by the Jury because he didn’t take the stand, not due to the evidence.
They took 4 days to debate that? Seems to me it might take a show of hands.
 
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phil19034:
make it seem like it is possible that Cardinal Pell is being framed or that this is a lie/hit job.
What am I missing? What possible reason would people have for a hit job against Cardinal Pell?
No idea. However, sometimes people do deranged things for political reasons.

For example:
  1. why did Jussie Smollett hire two Africans from Nigeria to beat him up and claim it was white, homophobic Trump supporters?
  2. Why did Nikki Joly from Jackson, MI burn down his/her own house down and let his/her pets die in the fire and claim that he/she was a victim of an anti LGBTQ hate crime?
    Jackson gay rights leader accused of burning down own home, killing pets
The Judicial System is supposed to seek justice for victims and protect the accused from false accusations.

God bless
 
Your position is that a man was wrongly convicted by a jury because he didn’t take the stand? Why do you not extend the same charity you wish to extend Pell to the jury? Why are you accusing them of something horrific?
 
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