Will Pope Francis Invite Lutherans into an Ordinariate?

[Filii_Dei]

What exactly has Luther reformed that the CC did not reform at Trent?

What he meant was that before Trent, Luther intended to reform the Church, and the Lutheran Church group he gathered was the expression of the reformation he wanted, hence “the one holy catholic and apostolic church reformed”. By the time the Council of Trent had been convened, the Lutherans had already left, so the reformations of Trent did not apply to them and the phrase stuck.

 

[aidanbradypop]

From a Lutheran perspective, as I understand it, we share a lot of commonality with the EO as far as dogma. Though I can’t say I’m sure they feel the same about us.

…I believe we all are very close, but there are a few spaces between us that really set us apart from one another. I love to understand what exactly those “spaces” are, but do not like to argue about it. I figure that by understanding a Lutheran’s view, it will allow my beliefs to grow.

 

[crazzeto]

From a Lutheran perspective, as I understand it, we share a lot of commonality with the EO as far as dogma. Though I can’t say I’m sure they feel the same about us.

Catholics could say this too

 

[Filii_Dei]

If you ask the Orthodox, they believe that there are many large obstacles that we need to remove before entering communion with them, so they would disagree with both us.

 

[MaryT777]

The problem, in part, is which Lutherans? It cannot be many of the LWF synods, such as the ELCA, because of the ELCA’s compromising of the ministerial priesthood, first by ordaining women, then at the Churchwide assembly in 2011.

And the LCMS and ILC are not yet ready for such a move.

Jon

We have an ELCA pastor that posts and he stated not all in the ELCA are in agreement with ELCA teachings of course. Perhaps a conservative sect of ELCA would be more willing to dialogue. As stated it’s up to the Lutherans. It would be done on the terms of the Catholic Church of course with the Lutherans agreeing to it.

It would certainly be interesting.

Mary.

 

[MaryT777]

Agreed.

Agreed again. Would the ELCA be willing to give up women’s ordination, or that of openly practicing gays?

As should all Lutherans, according to the confessions.

Jon

I know ELCA members in my city who say they do not agree with either women ordination, openly practicing gays, or abortion as acceptable. I believe it’s very possible to find a conservative group willing to give those things up within the ELCA. The ELCA does have a close relationship with Rome after the signing of the JDDJ. That has cleared the way for further dialogue.

Mary.

 

[aidanbradypop]

We have an ELCA pastor that posts and he stated not all in the ELCA are in agreement with ELCA teachings of course. Perhaps a conservative sect of ELCA would be more willing to dialogue. As stated it’s up to the Lutherans. It would be done on the terms of the Catholic Church of course with the Lutherans agreeing to it.

It would certainly be interesting.

Mary.

Mary you raise a wonderful point. “It would be done on the terms of the Catholic Church…”

Many denominations would want the Church to give and take. The Church cannot give and take on matters of doctrine and faith. I just believe Lutherans, ELCA mostly, would find trouble with that. They would have to do away with the ordination of women and openly gay individuals. I guess nothing is outside the power of the Holy Spirit.

Isn’t the LCMC the conservative branch that broke with the ELCA?

 

[MaryT777]

The Anglican Ordinariate was initiated because some Anglicans requested it. This was not any historic body, such as the Church of England or The Episcopal Church, but rather one body unrecognized by the Anglican Communion that had broken away a few decades earlier. Even that body did not enter the Ordinariate as a whole. Some clergy and laity did, some clergy and laity did not, many others came in from other parts of Anglicanism. I don’t expect a historic body such as ELCA or LCMS to initiate such a request. But aren’t there organizations of Lutherans in Europe or the US that might do so? Perhaps the ELCA has muddied the waters on clergy, but so had the Anglicans, that did not prevent the Ordinariate. The Anglican Ordinariate isn’t about merger with Anglican churches, it’s about individuals and small groups bringing their heritage over. If a Lutheran Ordinariate were to emerge, it might come from those who are more liturgical minded than the LCMS, but disagree with the doctrinal trends of the ELCA.

Excellent post. I concur )

 

[MaryT777]

Yes I recall the efforts of the Evangelical-Catholic Union many years ago. I believe Saint Augustine’s House [Lutheran monastery] promoted reunion with Rome. Most Lutherans, aside from emotional attachment, recognize the supremacy of the Pope and argue for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.

“Most” Lutherans recognize the supremacy of the Pope? The Lutheran confessions state otherwise which is why it is difficult to imagine confessional Lutherans such as LCMS
or Wels being interested in any such Ordinariate.

Mary.

 

[MaryT777]

Come home!

Personally I’d rather sit at a separate table than compromise doctrine for the sake of a false
sense of unity any day.

 

[MaryT777]

I think it would more correctly be said that most Lutherans recognize the pope’s primacy, not supremacy, as the confessions make clear.

Jon

Do not most Lutherans reject the primacy of Peter as he sits in the office of the anti Christ.
I don’t like to dance around issues.

This is not to become off topic but to be clear about what the confessions teach.
That said it’s hard to imagine too much dialogue between Confessional Lutherans regarding the topic at hand
(the percentage of what Lutherans are “confessional” seems to vary) given this
issue with the Primacy of Peter which is right online to read.

Mary.

 

[MaryT777]

I hope it’s the LCMS.

Even though the ELCA has a big history here in Minnesota, they’ve adopted practices that would give your friendly neighborhood orthodox Catholic a coronary like adopting gay priests, gay marriage and women’s priests. They won’t change that just to be with Rome, trust me.

I disagree. I think there are some are fed up and would leave in a heartbeat. That is speaking with many ELCA friends here in my city where the ELCA is huge. The
LCMS “keeps to itself” primarily. They’ll show up in the paper on big issues such as the Benke dispute but the press is not always our friend of course.

Mary.

 

[Brendan]

The problem, in part, is which Lutherans? It cannot be many of the LWF synods, such as the ELCA, because of the ELCA’s compromising of the ministerial priesthood, first by ordaining women, then at the Churchwide assembly in 2011.

And the LCMS and ILC are not yet ready for such a move.

Jon

That was my thoughts. Unlike the Anglican communion, a Lutheran who is displeased with the direct the ELCA is takeing will most likely simply become LCMS, not Catholic.

And an LCMS Lutheran would probably consider most Catholic parishes to be a step down liturgically. The LCMS still mostly retain communion rails, for example

 

[MaryT777]

I believe that Lutherans believe and use the Nicene Creed where it says “consubstantial with the Father.” When it comes to the Mass, and the Consecration, Lutherans do not use “Transubstantiation.” They use “Consubstantiation.”

Althogh there are Lutherans that tell you they do believe in consubstantiation which they define as “in with and under” which is contrary to Scripture
apparently it’s a heretical view and now I realize that the LCMS Lutherans at least
REJECT consubstantiation.

 

[MaryT777]

I know he was excommunicated. Keep in mind the reason such a thing came about. But that is for another thread.

The local LCMC congregation here actually does not wear robes nor do they do the sign of the cross after prayer…etc. Like I stated earlier, it could simply be the region where I live. I never met a Lutheran until I moved to the Midwest. I wish the Lutherans here acted like Ben, Jon and the many others. I probably would have more friends here in Fargo.

We should never condemn anyone. We should only condemn doctrines that go against that of the Church of Christ on earth.

LOL…I know LCMS Lutherans like Jon and Ben. The one that reminds me of Jon is an elder here (They have the same set of language in the LCMS as you may have noted-
Indeed, my friend, etc, it’s fascinating LOL Jon noted I believe he was an elder. Trust me
Dustin, he’s LCMS all the way if he’s an elder.

 

[aidanbradypop]

LOL…I know LCMS Lutherans like Jon and Ben. The one that reminds me of Jon is an elder here (They have the same set of language in the LCMS as you may have noted-
Indeed, my friend, etc, it’s fascinating LOL Jon noted I believe he was an elder. Trust me
Dustin, he’s LCMS all the way if he’s an elder.

lol

Like I have stated many times before to our Lutheran forum posters…The Lutherans here in Fargo are more anti Catholic than the Baptist in my home state of Tennessee. :banghead:

 

[MaryT777]

If you ask the Orthodox, they believe that there are many large obstacles that we need to remove before entering communion with them, so they would disagree with both us.

Exactly.

 

[aidanbradypop]

So here is a conversation I had with a Lutheran friend of mine about this subject. I will give you the short version.

I asked if a Lutheran Ordinariate was created, would he consider joining it. He is a former ELCA pastor before he was taken of the roster for a sex scandal. He then joined the LCMC synod and is trying to get a job with that synod. He is very much anti Catholic and does not have much love for the LCMS either. He states that they do not allow women to be ordained and pro open communion.

So when I asked him if he would join the Ordinariate (I already knew the answer ) He stated that he is Lutheran and would never join the Bishop of Rome. He went on to state that by doing so, he would call the Lutheran faith a lie and he believes that Rome is the liar. I wasn’t expecting that answer. I simple “no” would have worked. lol

I believe that if a Lutheran wants to come into full communion with Rome, they will join the Catholic Church. If a Lutheran is against certain things being done in their synod, they will simply join another.

 

[MaryT777]

So here is a conversation I had with a Lutheran friend of mine about this subject. I will give you the short version.

I asked if a Lutheran Ordinariate was created, would he consider joining it. He is a former ELCA pastor before he was taken of the roster for a sex scandal. He then joined the LCMC synod and is trying to get a job with that synod. He is very much anti Catholic and does not have much love for the LCMS either. He states that they do not allow women to be ordained and pro open communion.

So when I asked him if he would join the Ordinariate (I already knew the answer ) He stated that he is Lutheran and would never join the Bishop of Rome. He went on to state that by doing so, he would call the Lutheran faith a lie and he believes that Rome is the liar. I wasn’t expecting that answer. I simple “no” would have worked. lol

I believe that if a Lutheran wants to come into full communion with Rome, they will join the Catholic Church. If a Lutheran is against certain things being done in their synod, they will simply join another.

I admire his honesty.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I admire his honesty.

That’s one way to look at it lol