Will Pope Francis Invite Lutherans into an Ordinariate?

[aidanbradypop]

I believe another block to a Ordinariate is that Lutherans already believe they are the One, Holy, Catholic Church of Christ. Notice I did not put Apostolic in there. Neither did the Lutheran that I asked.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Don’t get me wrong, I would love to see a Lutheran Ordinariate and perhaps a Lutheran Use of the Roman Rite (I have not yet investigated the peculiarities of the Lutheran tradition), particularly for the Germanic and Nordic countries, but we have to be realistic. There won’t be a response unless the Lutherans request it. I pray that some of the more sensible Lutherans would initiate such a dialogue, just so that we know how it might work out.

I’m not very concerned with the diversity of doctrines amongst the Lutherans, because all we ask is that they accept the Church’s teaching of the subject upon being received. What they believe now is irrelevant so long as they reject it upon entering the Church. That being said, some of the more conservative of them could also teach our own Catholics a lesson or two in tradition.

 

[crazzeto]

Don’t get me wrong, I would love to see a Lutheran Ordinariate and perhaps a Lutheran Use of the Roman Rite (I have not yet investigated the peculiarities of the Lutheran tradition), particularly for the Germanic and Nordic countries, but we have to be realistic. There won’t be a response unless the Lutherans request it. I pray that some of the more sensible Lutherans would initiate such a dialogue, just so that we know how it might work out.

I’m not very concerned with the diversity of doctrines amongst the Lutherans, because all we ask is that they accept the Church’s teaching of the subject upon being received. What they believe now is irrelevant so long as they reject it upon entering the Church. That being said, some of the more conservative of them could also teach our own Catholics a lesson or two in tradition.

To my understanding there have been requests from Lutherans. What I don’t know however is how long these requests have been going on, what the population is, and the fervency of the requests.

Again, is the diversity of beliefs among Lutherans anymore problematic than the diversity of beliefs among anglicans? Wasn’t that the purpose of requesting, and granting the ordinate to begin with? Orthodox believers within a separated communion wish to return to Rome, due to overwhelming heresy among the majority of the leadership and laity within the separated communion. I wonder, are we white washing the Anglican situation here and suggesting that there was some great general return to orthodoxy which prompted this? It was my understanding the reverse was true.

 

[JonNC]

I know ELCA members in my city who say they do not agree with either women ordination, openly practicing gays, or abortion as acceptable. I believe it’s very possible to find a conservative group willing to give those things up within the ELCA. The ELCA does have a close relationship with Rome after the signing of the JDDJ. That has cleared the way for further dialogue.

Mary.

The ELCA is full of good Lutherans, who do not agree with the leadership. My dad, who was a ELCA pastor used to say it was a conservative church with a liberal leadership. I suspect that is still the case in spades.

Jon

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

I believe that Lutherans believe and use the Nicene Creed where it says “consubstantial with the Father.” When it comes to the Mass, and the Consecration, Lutherans do not use “Transubstantiation.” They use “Consubstantiation.”

I’m not sure what the point of this statement is.

Within the Nicene Creed, we profess that Christ is “consubstantial with the Father”. This is the equivalent (though perhaps more technical) of saying “of one substance with the Father”. Which is the same thing that the Catholic Church professes concerning Christ.

What this has to do with the Eucharistic doctrine of consubstantiation (which, officially, Lutherans do not teach or believe) is beyond me.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The ELCA is full of good Lutherans, who do not agree with the leadership. My dad, who was a ELCA pastor used to say it was a conservative church with a liberal leadership. I suspect that is still the case in spades.

Jon

Jon

I am a former LCMS cradle Lutheran forced out due to minor differences over the authority of true orthodoxy. We believe the Holy Spirit guides the Body of Christ. The audacity to assume who are God’s true children seems contrary to the holy Gospel.

ELCA and European Lutherans seek common ground with all Christians who profess the God-given Ecumenical creeds. Pride is not God-given.

 

[MaryT777]

Jon

I am a former LCMS cradle Lutheran forced out due to minor differences over the authority of true orthodoxy. We believe the Holy Spirit guides the Body of Christ. The audacity to assume who are God’s true children seems contrary to the holy Gospel.

ELCA and European Lutherans seek common ground with all Christians who profess the God-given Ecumenical creeds. Pride is not God-given.

I’m curious as to why Lutherans say Ecumenical creeds and not catholic creeds?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I’m curious as to why Lutherans say Ecumenical creeds and not catholic creeds?

One in the same.

 

[MaryT777]

One in the same.

Thanks.
Lutherans are the only ones I’ve heard say Ecumenical creeds.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Thanks.
Lutherans are the only ones I’ve heard say Ecumenical creeds.

We call it the Nicene Creed and Apostles’ Creed here, and for academic purposes I specify the Nicene Creed as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. I’ve not heard the term ‘Catholic creed’ in my diocese.

To be honest, I’ve heard of them being referred to as ecumenical creeds more often than as Catholic creeds. ‘Ecumenical creed’ is preferred in ecumenical dialogue, usually with the Lutherans and Anglicans. My guess is that they prefer a neutral term that allows them to continue to use it without being accused by the more radical segments of being Papists. On the other hand, the Catholic Church has never really needed to label a creed as ‘Catholic’ given the fact that if there was a creed at all, it was probably Catholic anyway.

That being said, Blessed John Henry Newman, Blessed John Paul II and Pope Pius XI have indeed referred to them as ‘Catholic creeds’.

 

[JonNC]

I believe another block to a Ordinariate is that Lutherans already believe they are the One, Holy, Catholic Church of Christ. Notice I did not put Apostolic in there. Neither did the Lutheran that I asked.

Yet he confesses that “One Holy catholic and **Apostolic **Church” every week.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Don’t get me wrong, I would love to see a Lutheran Ordinariate and perhaps a Lutheran Use of the Roman Rite (I have not yet investigated the peculiarities of the Lutheran tradition), particularly for the Germanic and Nordic countries, but we have to be realistic. There won’t be a response unless the Lutherans request it. I pray that some of the more sensible Lutherans would initiate such a dialogue, just so that we know how it might work out.

I’m not very concerned with the diversity of doctrines amongst the Lutherans, because all we ask is that they accept the Church’s teaching of the subject upon being received. What they believe now is irrelevant so long as they reject it upon entering the Church. That being said, some of the more conservative of them could also teach our own Catholics a lesson or two in tradition.

Perhaps that is what the Lutheran that Pop talked to was speaking about. I’ve always said that I would become Catholic were the EO and CC to reconcile. The CC accepting the Augsburg Confession as a Catholic confession would be another way.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

To my understanding there have been requests from Lutherans. What I don’t know however is how long these requests have been going on, what the population is, and the fervency of the requests.

Again, is the diversity of beliefs among Lutherans anymore problematic than the diversity of beliefs among anglicans? Wasn’t that the purpose of requesting, and granting the ordinate to begin with? Orthodox believers within a separated communion wish to return to Rome, due to overwhelming heresy among the majority of the leadership and laity within the separated communion. I wonder, are we white washing the Anglican situation here and suggesting that there was some great general return to orthodoxy which prompted this? It was my understanding the reverse was true.

Good point. I would suspect that, since Lutheranism is somewhat more doctrinal than Anglicanism (GKC or another Anglican can correct me if I’m wrong), the “diversity of beliefs” is probably a bit less among us in terms of doctrine, though I am not underestimating the differences regarding morals and the ministerial priesthood.

Jon

 

[GKC]

Good point. I would suspect that, since Lutheranism is somewhat more doctrinal than Anglicanism (GKC or another Anglican can correct me if I’m wrong), the “diversity of beliefs” is probably a bit less among us in terms of doctrine, though I am not underestimating the differences regarding morals and the ministerial priesthood.

Jon

I agree.

GKC

 

[EvangelCatholic]

We call it the Nicene Creed and Apostles’ Creed here, and for academic purposes I specify the Nicene Creed as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. I’ve not heard the term ‘Catholic creed’ in my diocese.

To be honest, I’ve heard of them being referred to as ecumenical creeds more often than as Catholic creeds. ‘Ecumenical creed’ is preferred in ecumenical dialogue, usually with the Lutherans and Anglicans. My guess is that they prefer a neutral term that allows them to continue to use it without being accused by the more radical segments of being Papists. On the other hand, the Catholic Church has never really needed to label a creed as ‘Catholic’ given the fact that if there was a creed at all, it was probably Catholic anyway.

That being said, Blessed John Henry Newman, Blessed John Paul II and Pope Pius XI have indeed referred to them as ‘Catholic creeds’.

The ecumenical or universal creeds include the Athanasian Creed [named after St. Athanasius] that Lutheran profess on the Feast of the Holy Trinity. Do Roman Catholics, Angilcan, Orthodox also include this long creed in worship?

 

[GKC]

The ecumenical or universal creeds include the Athanasian Creed [named after St. Athanasius] that Lutheran profess on the Feast of the Holy Trinity. Do Roman Catholics, Angilcan, Orthodox also include this long creed in worship?

Some Anglicans do.

GKC

 

[Razanir]

I believe that Lutherans believe and use the Nicene Creed where it says “consubstantial with the Father.” When it comes to the Mass, and the Consecration, Lutherans do not use “Transubstantiation.” They use “Consubstantiation.”

Nope. I have a Lutheran friend at college who I get into semi-frequent discussions with. To paraphrase him, Lutherans just accept that it’s Jesus without trying to apply metaphysics to it.

I believe another block to a Ordinariate is that Lutherans already believe they are the One, Holy, Catholic Church of Christ. Notice I did not put Apostolic in there. Neither did the Lutheran that I asked.

One, Holy, little-c catholic. They don’t claim to be the big-C Catholic church

 

[hn160]

Nope. I have a Lutheran friend at college who I get into semi-frequent discussions with. To paraphrase him, Lutherans just accept that it’s Jesus without trying to apply metaphysics to it.

One, Holy, little-c catholic. They don’t claim to be the big-C Catholic church

When we say " catholic ", it means universial.

 

[Razanir]

When we say " catholic ", it means universial.

Exactly. I was correcting him that he spelled it with a capital C. A quick google search looking at Mass translations reveals that Catholics even do the same. Both of us use the word to mean universal in the creed

 

[GKC]

Exactly. I was correcting him that he spelled it with a capital C. A quick google search looking at Mass translations reveals that Catholics even do the same. Both of us use the word to mean universal in the creed

And, depending on which Rite is used. Anglicans spell it “C”, too.

GKC