Will Pope Francis Invite Lutherans into an Ordinariate?

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I’m not sure I even understand and/or appreciate a mindset that places so much emphasis on ecclesiastical matters as apostolic succession. Orthodox primates are equals among all bishops. Anglicans and most Lutherans have legitimate/valid Orders and point of reference [archbishops] who at the Reformation merely changed their name from Roman Catholic to Lutheran/ Anglican.

To me, anything that intentionally divides us is a questionable preoccupation.
But, RCs are required to affirm, per* Apostolicae Curae*, that Anglican Orders are invalid. I never try to talk a RC out of that sort of thing.

And the judgement on Anglican orders (complicated history, that), doesn’t have anything to do with the sacramental ministers (bishops), but to an intertwined issue of form and intent, in the sacramental action.

Complicated.

GKC
 
But, RCs are required to affirm, per* Apostolicae Curae*, that Anglican Orders are invalid. I never try to talk a RC out of that sort of thing.

And the judgement on Anglican orders (complicated history, that), doesn’t have anything to do with the sacramental ministers (bishops), but to an intertwined issue of form and intent, in the sacramental action.
Complicated.

GKC
Thoughtful response; can you elaborate a bit more on the “issue of form and intent”?
 
Thoughtful response; can you elaborate a bit more on the “issue of form and intent”?
I often have. Here’s a very abbreviated form. I have also done this in mind-numbing detail.

The undivided Church had developed a set of requirements for what constituted the confection of a valid sacrament. In brief, it required a valid minister, form, intent, matter (and subject, for some). Apostolicae Curae concluded that Anglican orders were invalid, due to a break in apostolic succession, which occurred through the use of an invalid form, in the Edwardine ordinal, and of an invalid sacramental intent, expressed by the use of this Ordinal. While the Bull does not specify the precise point at which this occurred, the consensus is that it was at the consecration of Archbishop Parker, in 1559 (see Clarke, ANGLICAN ORDERS AND DEFECT OF INTENTION).

The defect in the form (the words said in the conveying of Holy Orders) was alleged to have been the failure to specify the priest’s role in offering the sacrifice of the Mass. The judgment of Apostolicae Curae also faults the use of that particular form, as a means of judging the sacramental intent of those who used it. The Bull first faulted, then, the Edwardine Ordinal, holding that the form was invalid because it did not mention the authority of the priest to offer sacrifice. Additional problems were held with the form for consecrating bishops. Conclusion: the forms were sacramentally invalid.

But the judgement in AC is not on the form alone, since it is not at all difficult to list other ordination rites, which are accepted by the Roman Catholic Church as conferring valid orders, which likewise do not refer to the sacrificing priesthood. What AC asserts is not merely that the Ordinal fails to mention that particular office of a priest, but that since all mention of it was deliberately suppressed by the authors of the Ordinal, the concept of the priesthood mentioned in the Ordinal (it was asserted) was not that of the undivided Church. Hence, they who used it could not be proposing to ordain priests, in that sense. Hence, they did not do so.

This alleges invalid sacramental intent on the part of those who used (not those who wrote) the Ordinal. Intent is usually the easiest of the requirements for a valid sacrament to satisfy. Since intent is an interior state (asAC says), if all exterior forms of the sacramental action are unexceptional, the sacramental intent is assumed to be valid; to do what the Church does in the sacramental action (facere quod facit ecclessia). Otherwise, no sacrament could ever conclusively be proven to be valid.

However, if there is some external aspect that permits a judgment of the intent, permitting a determinatio ex adiunctis, that may permit a judgment of invalid sacramental intent. In the logic of Apostolicae Curae, that was the use of the Ordinal. Given the circumstances in which the Ordinal was written, when and by whom, it was assumed that the intent of anyone who used that form sacramentally was (by determinatio ex adiunctis) considered sacramentally invalid. Thus, through the joined questions of form and intent, each leading to a determination of invalidity, the orders were declared invalid, due to a break in apostolic succession. Had the Ordinal not been written, and the Pontificale Romanum continued in use, the logic of AC would have been necessarily different. Not that the Orders would have been declared valid, necessarily, but some other point might have served.

So, AC says that due to an invalid form, used with an invalid intent, Anglican orders were lost.

This subject is a complex one, and the story includes factors of personalities, history, and politics, as well as theology. Been a hobby of mine for years. Comes up often. Some of this is cut and paste, from previous replies of mine.Remember, the conclusion of AC must be affirmed by all RCs. Sometimes I remind them.

GKC
 
Honestly, I feel that the matter of whether Lutherans possess valid orders right now is irrelevant to this topic. In matters of reunion, the only issue where orders are concerned should be whether they preserve the understanding for the need for apostolic succession, which has already been established by our Lutheran friends. That’s the important bit. Any Lutheran ordinariate (or other arrangement) will need that as the underpinning principle of their internal hierarchy. Whether we consider their orders valid or not will be resolved when we return into full communion. After all, ordinations can be arranged, but it’s harder to accept someone who rejects apostolic succession to begin with. 🙂
 
Honestly, I feel that the matter of whether Lutherans possess valid orders right now is irrelevant to this topic. In matters of reunion, the only issue where orders are concerned should be whether they preserve the understanding for the need for apostolic succession, which has already been established by our Lutheran friends. That’s the important bit. Any Lutheran ordinariate (or other arrangement) will need that as the underpinning principle of their internal hierarchy. Whether we consider their orders valid or not will be resolved when we return into full communion. After all, ordinations can be arranged, but it’s harder to accept someone who rejects apostolic succession to begin with. 🙂
This is well said. For the most part Lutherans do not oppose AS, and I wouldn’t see that as a Church dividing issue, all things being resolved. What I do see is resistance by Lutheran clergy to re-ordination, as that would imply that Lutheran ordinations were not valid, something many of our clergy would take umbrage to. it would be something akin I think, to rebaptism. We take ordination seriously.
Jon
 
Honestly, I feel that the matter of whether Lutherans possess valid orders right now is irrelevant to this topic. In matters of reunion, the only issue where orders are concerned should be whether they preserve the understanding for the need for apostolic succession, which has already been established by our Lutheran friends. That’s the important bit. Any Lutheran ordinariate (or other arrangement) will need that as the underpinning principle of their internal hierarchy. Whether we consider their orders valid or not will be resolved when we return into full communion. After all, ordinations can be arranged, but it’s harder to accept someone who rejects apostolic succession to begin with. 🙂
Right. If a Ordinariate was established, those issues on AS would be addressed. There was an Episcopalian priest here in Fargo that converted to Catholicism. The Catholic Bishop laid hands upon him and he was ordained a Catholic priest. Episcopalian priest have the correct education and training, yet they lack the AS. The same works with the Anglican Ordinariate that was established here in the US and UK.

I do not know if a Lutheran pastor would have to attend a Catholic seminary or if their education would be considered valid. 🤷
 
This is well said. For the most part Lutherans do not oppose AS, and I wouldn’t see that as a Church dividing issue, all things being resolved. What I do see is resistance by Lutheran clergy to re-ordination, as that would imply that Lutheran ordinations were not valid, something many of our clergy would take umbrage to. it would be something akin I think, to rebaptism. We take ordination seriously.
Jon
But this then would touch on orders and AS. For those ordained by authorities would lacked proper orders then re-ordination would be required. Not as a dim view of the minister, but as a necessity to properly make the individual a priest. I’m sure you can appriciate, this is a matter the church could hardly turn a blind eye too.

I think prayer for the overcoming of all obstacles is in order. Though I fear these days Germany is giving Rome too much to be concerned about for them to be considering a Lutheran Ordinate. Though perhaps the establishing of faithful, orthodox Lutheran Use parishes would help with these matters too.
 
This is well said. For the most part Lutherans do not oppose AS, and I wouldn’t see that as a Church dividing issue, all things being resolved. What I do see is resistance by Lutheran clergy to re-ordination, as that would imply that Lutheran ordinations were not valid, something many of our clergy would take umbrage to. it would be something akin I think, to rebaptism. We take ordination seriously.
Jon
Re-ordination, as you say Jon, will have to take place. There’s really no getting around it. Besides, if for the most part, Lutherans do not oppose AS, there really shouldn’t be problem with Lutheran ministers being ordained Catholic priests. Fr. John Neuhaus’s life would be a great example to all Lutheran ministers.

www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7508
 
Re-ordination, as you say Jon, will have to take place. There’s really no getting around it. Besides, if for the most part, Lutherans do not oppose AS, there really shouldn’t be problem with Lutheran ministers being ordained Catholic priests. Fr. John Neuhaus’s life would be a great example to all Lutheran ministers.

www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7508
He was, indeed, but the issue will still be there.

Jon
 
If a Lutheran Ordinariate would come about and Lutheran Pastors jump ship, the Catholic Church would get well trained men that would be a blessing to the Catholic Church.
 
If a Lutheran Ordinariate would come about and Lutheran Pastors jump ship, the Catholic Church would get well trained men that would be a blessing to the Catholic Church.
Indeed! And they would be a priest in the One Church established by Christ on earth. I win-win.
 
Re-ordination, as you say Jon, will have to take place. There’s really no getting around it. Besides, if for the most part, Lutherans do not oppose AS, there really shouldn’t be problem with Lutheran ministers being ordained Catholic priests. Fr. John Neuhaus’s life would be a great example to all Lutheran ministers.

www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7508
It is not a matter of re-ordaining but rather the apostolic blessing. Many years ago, some newly ordained Lutheran pastors in America went to Sweden for the laying on of hands by the archbishop of Uppsala. Now that is not necessary since all ELCA clergy are ordained by one who has been ordained by either an Episcopalian/ Anglican bishop. European Lutherans are in full communion with the Church of England.

BTW, I knew Fr John when he was pastor of St John the Evangelist [LCMS] in Brooklyn. Actually Neuhaus was writing books and submitting articles to Una Sancta magazine; he lived in the rectory but Fr John Heinemeier was the pastor. Neuhaus could not wait for the reunion of Lutheran and Roman Catholic.
 
It is not a matter of re-ordaining but rather the apostolic blessing. Many years ago, some newly ordained Lutheran pastors in America went to Sweden for the laying on of hands by the archbishop of Uppsala. Now that is not necessary since all ELCA clergy are ordained by one who has been ordained by either an Episcopalian/ Anglican bishop. European Lutherans are in full communion with the Church of England.

BTW, I knew Fr John when he was pastor of St John the Evangelist [LCMS] in Brooklyn. Actually Neuhaus was writing books and submitting articles to Una Sancta magazine; he lived in the rectory but Fr John Heinemeier was the pastor. Neuhaus could not wait for the reunion of Lutheran and Roman Catholic.
If I am understanding what you are saying, any Lutheran pastors who wished to become RC priests, under the Ordinariate, or something like the Pastoral Provision before it, would indeed be, not re-ordained, but ordained absolutely, for the first time. Rome does not recognize Lutheran/Anglican lines, or orders. And, as I said before, AFAIK, that includes Scandinavian Lutherans. To the RCC, Lutherans, and Anglicans (except in two historic cases) are treated as laymen, in becoming RC priests. Ordained absolutely.

GKC
 
If I am understanding what you are saying, any Lutheran pastors who wished to become RC priests, under the Ordinariate, or something like the Pastoral Provision before it, would indeed be, not re-ordained, but ordained absolutely, for the first time. Rome does not recognize Lutheran/Anglican lines, or orders. And, as I said before, AFAIK, that includes Scandinavian Lutherans. To the RCC, Lutherans, and Anglicans (except in two historic cases) are treated as laymen, in becoming RC priests. Ordained absolutely.

GKC
Perhaps it is a misunderstanding. Worldwide Orthodox, Anglicans and Lutherans recognize sacramental priesthood and a desire to unite the Church. The presiding bishop of the ELCA often participates in worship with Roman Catholic bishops and I can assure you he is not considered a “layman”.
 
Perhaps it is a misunderstanding. Worldwide Orthodox, Anglicans and Lutherans recognize sacramental priesthood and a desire to unite the Church. The presiding bishop of the ELCA often participates in worship with Roman Catholic bishops and I can assure you he is not considered a “layman”.
I would defer comment on that to the RCs on the board. If you mean the RCs consider him a priest in valid orders, I’d love to know more about it. But what do you mean by participating in worship?

The RCC considers orders valid in the particular churches in communion with Rome, valid and illicit in the Orthodox Churches not in communion with Rome, and valid/illicit in some small groups outside these, such as a declining number of Old Catholics, the PNCC and whatever their attitude might be toward Scandinavian Lutherans, which, AFAIK, is the same as all Lutherans. No valid orders. So any Lutherans who become RC priests will, necessarily, be ordained absolutely.

Any Anglicans who joined the Ordinariate and became RC priests were ordained absolutely, not sub conditione. I watch these sort of things. To ordain *sub conditione * is like a conditional baptism. There have only been two sub conditione ordinations of former Anglican priests since Apostolicae Curae was issued in 1896. All the rest have been absolute.

GKC
 
Perhaps it is a misunderstanding. Worldwide Orthodox, Anglicans and Lutherans recognize sacramental priesthood and a desire to unite the Church. The presiding bishop of the ELCA often participates in worship with Roman Catholic bishops and I can assure you he is not considered a “layman”.
I hope Pastor Gary weighs in, but my understanding is the same as GKC’s. when I used the term reordained I was speaking from a Lutheran perspective.
The Lutheran / Catholic statement The Church as Koinonia does speak of Lutheran clergy in a priest-like manner, but I still think, as it stands now, a Lutheran ordination would not be accepted.
Jon
 
Indeed! And they would be a priest in the One Church established by Christ on earth. I win-win.
I meant to a “A win-win” and not I win 🤷:o
Perhaps it is a misunderstanding. Worldwide Orthodox, Anglicans and Lutherans recognize sacramental priesthood and a desire to unite the Church. The presiding bishop of the ELCA often participates in worship with Roman Catholic bishops and I can assure you he is not considered a “layman”.
Many Episcopalins priest have left their faith and joined the Catholic Church here in the Fargo area. The Dean of the Episcopal Cathedral is the latest to do so. He had the correct formation, but lacked Apostolic Succession. So our Bishop here laid hands upon him and ordained him a priest in the Catholic Church. He was still considered a pastor in the general sense, but was not ordained properly due to lack of AS from the Episcopal Bishop. If a Luthern, Anglican or Episcopalian pastor wanted to join the Church and continue their calling, they would have to be ordained by a Bishop. They could not even be a Deacon in the Church without a valid ordination from a Bishop. So yes they would be considered to by a average layman until they were ordained. I know a Lutheran pastor who joined the Catholic Church and sits in the pew.
 
I hope Pastor Gary weighs in, but my understanding is the same as GKC’s. when I used the term reordained I was speaking from a Lutheran perspective.
The Lutheran / Catholic statement The Church as Koinonia does speak of Lutheran clergy in a priest-like manner, but I still think, as it stands now, a Lutheran ordination would not be accepted.
Jon
Actually it is important to note that ‘reordained’ in this case could only mean from a Lutheran perspective. The sacrament of Holy Orders can only be received once. Once you are validly ordained there is no being ‘reordained’, not ever. So as GKC said, on the Catholic side it’s always absolute if the sacrament is conferred.

The closest you could come is that the church will perform what is called a ‘conditional’ baptism in certain cases where it is not clear if the candidate has not previously been baptized, so perhaps something like this might(??) exist? I.e. something along the likes of ‘if you have not been baptized (ordained) … sacrament continues’.
 
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