Will the west come under Islamic Sharia Law

[Steven_John]

Best i understand the Australian constitution can be changed by majority.
I assume same in other democracy’s.

What religion in the world has the fastest growth?

Peace and blessings

 

[Steven_John]

Lead up

**NSW Police had been recording racial and ethnic tensions and incidents in and around Cronulla since October 2005.[2]
**
Just after 3pm on Sunday, 4 December 2005,[1][3] police were called to North Cronulla Beach following a report of an assault on two volunteer surf lifesavers by a group of 8 Middle Eastern Men.[1][2][3][4][5] A verbal exchange had taken place after three lifesavers approached a group of four young Lebanese men on Cronulla Beach with both groups accusing the other of staring at them.[2] One of the Lebanese men responded to the accusations, “I’m allowed to, now **** off and leave our beach”[2] to which a lifesaver responded, “I come down here out of my own spare time to save you dumb cunts from drowning, now **** off you scum”.[2] The verbal exchange escalated with one Lebanese youth attempting to defuse the situation. Another then threw a punch but missed, prompting a pushing match that escalated into a fight. One of the lifesavers was badly hurt after falling and striking his head.[2] One of the lifesavers later informed police that the four were part of a group of eight Lebanese that had been on the beach most of the day and that there had been no problems with their prior behaviour. Despite media reports to the contrary, no “Middle Eastern Men converged on the area” and there were no more than the original eight present.[6][7]
“ What kind of grubs? Well I’ll tell you what kind of grubs this lot were. This lot were middle eastern grubs. ”

—Alan Jones, 5 December 2005, on 2GB radio[8]

A Media report claimed that there was already tension between the community and Lebanese youths before this event and people, particularly women,[9] claimed to have been harassed, almost daily, by “groups of young Lebanese men”[9] attempting to “pick them up” and describing the women as being “Aussie sluts”.[9]

The events were reported widely across the Sydney media, particularly on talkback radio.[10] Alan Jones of Sydney’s 2GB Radio called for “a rally, a street march, call it what you will. A community show of force”,[10] calling the people responsible for the attack on the lifesavers “Middle Eastern grubs.”[11] When a listener, Berta, commented that she had heard “really derogatory remarks”[10] aimed at Middle Eastern people Jones interrupted stating “We don’t have Anglo-Saxon kids out there raping women in western Sydney.”[10] Jones was later found to have breached the Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) Code of Conduct section 1.3(a), as his comments were “likely to encourage violence or brutality and to vilify people of Lebanese and Middle-Eastern backgrounds on the basis of ethnicity”.[11]

 

[Alcrusader]

I know but since Muslims do taqqiya she’s slyly saying I’m a Muslim.

I’ve been accused of being a secret Muslim a number of times on these boards because I stick up for them when people attempt to stereotype them.

Dude you still see Islam in a ROSY GLASSES…
One day you gonna wake up and find out the rogue truth…

 

[Steven_John]

Brethren tomarin,
you seem to me to be very un-bias in your approach.

It amazes me that at CAF people who are Christian and live in places where people do terrible things in the name of Islam profess to hold the right to judge Christians that live in places where Muslims are productive members of communities building goodness.

Maybe they are gifted to judge, let G-ds will be done.

I love them and fear for them if they have not been gifted so that their judgement of other Christians will bring judgement on their own selves.

Bless you keep up your works in the way of Yeshua (pbwh) to the glory of Our Father.

 

[Alcrusader]

I’m not an “apologist” for anything. Sharia Law only applies to Muslims. The Jews and Christians living under Muslim rule always had their own laws drawn up by religious leaders from their own community. So your scenario is fatally flawed.

DUDE you have to live as a Dhimmi.
Anyone told you what dose that means?
It’s mean you live as human in the 5th position…it’s kinda your a slave of Islam but with more rights…

 

[Alcrusader]

Brethren tomarin,
you seem to me to be very un-bias in your approach.

It amazes me that at CAF people who are Christian and live in places where people do terrible things in the name of Islam profess to hold the right to judge Christians that live in places where Muslims are productive members of communities building goodness.

Maybe they are gifted to judge, let G-ds will be done.

I love them and fear for them if they have not been gifted so that their judgement of other Christians will bring judgement on their own selves.

Bless you keep up your works in the way of Yeshua (pbwh) to the glory of Our Father.

My friend, The problem is not with Muslims! The problem is with the Qur’an!

You still not getting it?
their are people who think Qur’an was sent by God and it teach them to kill us!
What is that god that allow his followers to kill Christians or Jews?

 

[Steven_John]

My friend, The problem is not with Muslims! The problem is with the Qur’an!

You still not getting it?
their are people who think Qur’an was sent by God and it teach them to kill us!
What is that god that allow his followers to kill Christians or Jews?

Are you sure its me who is not getting it?
Brother lets ask.

Brethren tomarin is it true you believe the Quran was sent by G-d?

We will see what he says because i have not got from his posts what you have.
Bless ya and if your right thanks for putting me straight.

 

[dolphinlove]

I am an aussie and i dont remember this even as you do i remembered it as a racial issue but you now show it was about Muslims. could you please post for us your source. I ask this because i am a poor reader i read some info of the web i know wiki is not a secure

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots

As i cant read well i used the PC to search the article for Muslim ans Islam without success.

Please help me with your source or understanding what i am missing.

Peace and blessings

A Sydney teenager accused of sparking the Cronulla race riot by assaulting a lifesaver had turned his back on his culture and on Australia, a magistrate said.

Ali Osman, 18, of Bankstown, was sentenced to 300 hours community service after pleading not guilty to the assault of a lifesaver at North Cronulla Beach on December 4, 2005.

link

Now you know and I know the name ‘Ali Osman’ is an islamic name.
And you know and I know the reports back then named him as a ‘muslim’ in the reports on tv.

 

[tomarin]

Dude you still see Islam in a ROSY GLASSES…
One day you gonna wake up and find out the rogue truth…

I try to approach it in all of its complexity and not reduce it to a monolithic whole with an essentialistic nature. But as a matter of fact I think you have a point because I do seem to have inherited from my teachers and popular culture (those Sinbad movies for example) a certain romanticized view of Islam that I’ve seen traced to the British political elite in the time of the Raj in India. They had a rosy-colored view of Islam as a fellow monotheistic religion that had noble qualities which compared favorably with their negative view of Hinduism as a quietistic belief system that promoted fatalism and other unmanly qualities (as they saw it).

It’s good to be aware of your own biases and correct for them when possible.

Added: but I still think that whatever my biases may be, because of my studies and my travels I strive for a broader and fairer view of the religion than the people whose only source of information are those anti-Muslim websites.

 

[tomarin]

Are you sure its me who is not getting it?
Brother lets ask.

Brethren tomarin is it true you believe the Quran was sent by G-d?

The only divinely inspired scripture I accept is the Bible.

 

[Steven_John]

The only divinely inspired scripture I accept is the Bible.

Bless you

 

[Steven_John]

A Sydney teenager accused of sparking the Cronulla race riot by assaulting a lifesaver had turned his back on his culture and on Australia, a magistrate said.

Ali Osman, 18, of Bankstown, was sentenced to 300 hours community service after pleading not guilty to the assault of a lifesaver at North Cronulla Beach on December 4, 2005.

link

Now you know and I know the name ‘Ali Osman’ is an islamic name.
And you know and I know the reports back then named him as a ‘muslim’ in the reports on tv.

In the best of kindness, the link you supply in no way supports your earlier claim.

As for the bold that is very unfair on both of us, first in my posts i have clearly explained that is not what i know and politely asked you to help me giving you credit that you know what i dont. Now you state that I know differently it accuses me of lying to you.
You are lying about me.

As for the blue italics every time a Paul commits a crime do you assert its a Christian problem?

If a Christian commits a crime do we have to sort out the Christians.

Best i read the link you supplied it does not support your argument that it was a “muslim problem”

I have not found one reference any where that this had anything to do with religion.
If you saw credible reports where is the information now?

Bless you

 

[Contarini]

This is attitude of this Muslim businessman is the same as that of the imam starting the monument/mosque—that we brought it on…by the millions of deaths we have caused – Marxist propaganda and anti-Jewish hatred.

Kathleen,

But of course the attack on 9/11 was a response to U.S. foreign policy. I don’t understand how reasonable people can dispute this. Bin Laden laid it all out very clearly in his 1996 fatwa. Yet many Americans would rather believe that 9/11 was just an irrational act by crazy people, or that they “hate us because we are free,” or other nonsense of that sort.

Note: whether the U.S. policies in question are right or wrong is another matter. I believe that Western countries should support Israel (while also urging Israel to treat the Palestinians justly), which is one of Bin Laden’s major grievances. And while I think in retrospect stationing U.S. soldiers in Saudi Arabia was a mistake, the Western intervention in Kuwait was hardly an act of aggression against Islam. So I’m not saying that Bin Laden’s grievances were justified. And of course, even if they were, killing innocent civilians is always evil. Period. Thus, I’m not defending Muslims who celebrated 9/11. Of course that was abominable, just as Ann Coulter’s call to invade Muslim countries and forcibly convert them to Christianity was abominable.

But we non-Muslims need to have the courage to speak out and say (no matter how often we are called traitors for doing so) that in fact 9/11 was clearly a response to specific U.S. foreign policies.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Takkiya!

For the 100th time: takkiya is primarily used by Shi’ites and corresponds to the teaching of many Christian traditions that deception is legitimate under certain circumstances (Catholics were vilified by Protestants for this teaching, but Newman rightly pointed out that Protestant casuists had said similar things–St. Augustine’s position that lying is always wrong is on one extreme of the Christian tradition, though I am very drawn to it myself).

Takkiya is not an excuse to dismiss whatever Muslims say. You are no different than anti-Catholic bigots who used the same excuse against Catholics for centuries. (The usual argument was: “Romanists believe that ‘no faith is to be kept with heretics,’ therefore no Romanist can be trusted and Romanists should be denied civil rights.”)

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I do care about the atrocities. I was very sad to read last month about the persecution of Ahmadi Muslims in Pakistan for example. But I can distinguish between fanatics and “normal” practitioners of a religion. I do that in the case of Christianity, why shouldn’t I do that in the case of Islam?

For the same reason anti-Muslim Christians have no right to say that moderate Muslims are not “real” Muslims. You and I aren’t Muslims (though some of our brothers and sisters on this forum think we are because we try to be fair to Muslims:shrug. So “normal” is just a statistical observation for us. We have no right to declare what is “normal” for Islam.

Statistically, I’m not at all sure that persecutors are “abnormal” in Islam. Of course there are degrees of persecution. But I suspect that Muslims who believe in full-scale religious liberty are probably a minority among Muslims worldwide. I’m not even sure they’re a majority among Muslims in Western countries.

One of the flaws into which we often fall in dealing with Islam is in creating a dichotomy between “peaceful” Muslims and “vicious, violent, intolerant” Muslims. Then you have endless arguments about which of these groups are “normal.” But in fact, like most things in most religions, it’s a spectrum. Muslims who believe in religious liberty in the sense most Western Christians do are at one end of the spectrum. People like Bin Laden are at the other end. Most Muslims are somewhere in the middle. This is messy, but it appears to be the reality.

Edwin

 

[hamba2han]

Just a reminder:

The Qur’an is NOT divinely-inspired.

It is instead the verbatim Speech of God Almighty.

 

[Contarini]

I don’t see how anything is possible between the two extremes you mention.

I know you don’t. Which is why I say, God help *you. *

The Quran that inspires terrorists to commit acts of violence is the same read by the ordinary Muslim. What makes you think that a book that promotes so much hatred is going to produce mentally healthy and good persons?

Because people read sacred books in widely different ways. Look at how Christians read the Bible. I understand why fundamentalist Protestants don’t get this, because they think there’s just one way to read the Bible and naturally assume that the Qur’an is the same way. I don’t understand for the life of me how Catholics can fall into this notion that the Qur’an has just one possible interpretation.

I mean, the Bible has produced some very sick behavior too. I know this is a trite point, but like most trite points, it happens to be true

Just because they don’t engage in actual violence does not mean they don’t support, condone or approve of it.

Indeed. But neither does it mean that they do.

As C. S. Lewis said, it’s fallacious to argue: “If there were an invisible cat in the chair, the chair would look empty. But it does look empty. Therefore there is an invisible cat in it.”

That being said, I agree that we shouldn’t just take protestations of peace and tolerance at face value, but should press on specific issues, like what role Muslims imagine for non-Muslims should Islam become the majority religion in a Western country, or how Muslims respond to instances of Islamic persecution of non-Muslims in countries that are presently dominated by Islam. When Muslims say that they are “tolerant,” but defend the punishment of Christians in Pakistan who allegedly “blaspheme against Muhammad,” then we have to recognize that their definition of tolerance is different from the one that has prevailed in the modern West (though very much like the one that was traditional in Western Christendom–i.e., we will leave you alone as long as you don’t make a nuisance of yourself).

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Just a reminder:

The Qur’an is NOT divinely-inspired.

It is instead the verbatim Speech of God Almighty.

You believe this. I see no evidence for it.

Admittedly, I’m supposedly incapable of seeing the evidence until I learn Arabic, which I have not yet had time to do!

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

That’s exactly how it is! Muslims are peaceful as long as they’re a minority, but as soon as they increase in numbers, trouble starts.

Vickie

Exactly what Protestants used to say about Catholics–with good reason, too.

Edwin

 

[hamba2han]

You believe this. I see no evidence for it.

Admittedly, I’m supposedly incapable of seeing the evidence until I learn Arabic, which I have not yet had time to do!

Edwin

Someone pointed out in this thread that the Bible is the only divinely-inspired scripture that he accepts.

Well, this does not say anything about the Qur’an since it is never claimed to be divinely-inspired and therefore no one should believe that it is.