Williamson fined $18,000 over Holocaust remarks [CN-USA]

[JReducation]

Just to swing this back to the OP, so we don’t go too far from the thread, the bishop’s statement is one of those statements that solves nothing, but adds fuel to a fire that has been brought under control. Allow me to explain. The relationship between the Catholic Church and the Jewish people has been thawing over the past three decades, thanks to the effort of Pope John Paul II. When a prominent bishop comes out with such unnecessary talk, it does harm to this process that has taken so many years to get going.

In my opinion, the bishop needed to keep in mind how his statement would hurt the Church and the Jewish people. A bishop has to remember that not everyting is about him or his beliefs. As Archbishop Chaput once said, “the role of a bishop is go where the Church goes”.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Darryl1958]

There is no reasonable question that the bishops views are reprehensible and repugnant. Denying that the shoah was anything other than a hoax perpetuated by Zionist Jewish in order to establish one-world government under Satan in Israel is not only morally repugnant, but dangerous in this world. such ideas play very well into the ME and UN agendas.

There is no question as well that relationship with the Jews soured over the the SSPX being brought back into the Catholic fold, which brought back many of these uber-conservative morally reprehensible views along with it.

Most Catholics, the pope included, wish only that these voices would stifle themselves, and keep their thoughts to themselves.
I doubt very much though that Bishop Williamson sees his views as morally repugnant. Deluded people seldom do. The danger of the devil establishing his kindgom in these end times is only too real for people like Williamson. No fine is too great, no price is too great for them to pay in order that they warn the rest of us.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Well yes - it’s not like the Nazi’s kept meticulous records.

There aren’t any Nazi records referring to the gassing of Jews.

Maybe all these million of Jews fled to “no Jews are too many Jews” Canada. Maybe they all fled to the United States on board the St. Louis. Maybe the British rescinded the White Paper and lived up to their mandate obligations.

Neither Williamson nor I are saying that many Jews were not murdered by the Nazis. Williamson points out the fact that there is no hard evidence of Jews being gassed by the Nazis and I am pointing out the undeniable fact that the 6 million figure is incorrect.

 

[JReducation]

There aren’t any Nazi records referring to the gassing of Jews.

Neither Williamson nor I are saying that many Jews were not murdered by the Nazis. Williamson points out the fact that there is no hard evidence of Jews being gassed by the Nazis and I am pointing out the undeniable fact that the 6 million figure is incorrect.

But what good are you and the bishop achieving by this?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[nsper7]

What I’ll never understand is why he felt the need to bring the topic up. I mean, he is a Bishop, not a professional historian and he was being interviewed on international television, not discussing a controversial paper at an academic conference. What good does bringing up such an issue do? It only angers many people (and not just Jews; after all, lest we forget, there were many Non-Jews who perished at the hands of the Nazis, including many Catholics) and only furthers the stereotype that Traditional Catholics tend towards Antisemitism.

 

[JReducation]

What I’ll never understand is why he felt the need to bring the topic up. I mean, he is a Bishop, not a professional historian and he was being interviewed on international television, not discussing a controversial paper at an academic conference. What good does bringing up such an issue do? It only angers many people (and not just Jews; after all, lest we forget, there were many Non-Jews who perished at the hands of the Nazis, including many Catholics) and only furthers the stereotype that Traditional Catholics tend towards Antisemitism.

See my post #52

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

But what good are you and the bishop achieving by this?

I’ve always thought that historical truth should prevail over legally enforced error. I’d imagine that the Bishop feels the same way.

 

[JReducation]

I’ve always thought that historical truth should prevail over legally enforced error. I’d imagine that the Bishop feels the same way.

One must always act for a greater good that is tangible. If all he had is an opinion of some people, that is not a tangible good. Unless we’re promoting a tangible good, then we do not have the right to sabotage the good that is being done by someone else, in this case, the good that is being done by the Church among the Jews.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

One must always act for a greater good that is tangible.

One must act for a greater good * because it is the greater good*. The tangibility of the ultimate goal should play no part.

If all he had is an opinion of some people, that is not a tangible good.

He also has historical fact.

Unless we’re promoting a tangible good, then we do not have the right to sabotage the good that is being done by someone else, in this case, the good that is being done by the Church among the Jews.

So the Church should embrace untruth to benefit more from it’s relationship with the Jews? Isn’t that a violation of the Church’s teaching that one should never do wrong/evil to achieve a good end?

 

[JReducation]

One must act for a greater good * because it is the greater good*. The tangibility of the ultimate goal should play no part.

He also has historical fact.

So the Church should embrace untruth to benefit more from it’s relationship with the Jews? Isn’t that a violation of the Church’s teaching that one should never do wrong/evil to achieve a good end?

Nothing of what the bishop says can be proven as fact. Therefore, the Church has to work with what is held by the greater part of the historical academy.

Second, in it is teaching of the Catholic Church that a good has to be tangible. We cannot change that teaching. It’s something that we have to accept as people of faith. Tangile does not mean physical. Something can be spiritually or intellectually tangible.

In this case, the Holy Father has already spoken. The Shoah, as it is taught today, must be accepted and held by Catholics unless there is definitive prove that it did not happen this way. In addition, the Holy Father ordered the bishop to drop this position and to withdraw from it and never make this statement again. If the Holy Father makes thsi demand of a bishop, it follows that we must follow suit. This is not a case of a particular belief or teaching that only affect a bishop. This is a case where the bishop’s position cannot be supported by facts.

A perfect example is Cardinal O’Connor of NY who went to Europe and saw the gas chambers and when he was there he had a vision of the horrors of the chambers. Then there was Maximilian Kolbe and Edith Stein who were both killed in a gas chamber and today are canonized saints. The gas chambers have played a part in the faith of today’s church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Nothing of what the bishop says can be proven as fact.

Of course it can! The “accepted” number of Jews murdered is based solely on the total difference between the number of Jews before and after the War in Nazi controlled territories. It does not take into account the many Jews who were deported or fled these territories therefore it is wrong.

Second, in it is teaching of the Catholic Church that a good has to be tangible.

So we shouldn’t work to end world hunger and general suffering? Because it is not tangible?

A perfect example is Cardinal O’Connor of NY who went to Europe and saw the gas chambers and when he was there he had a vision of the horrors of the chambers.

I’ve been to Auschwitz and Dachau and didn’t see anything that could and/or would have been used to gas people.

Then there was Maximilian Kolbe and Edith Stein who were both killed in a gas chamber and today are canonized saints.

Maximilian Kolbe was killed by an injection of phenol. In terms of Edith Stein, see above.

 

[JReducation]

Of course it can! The “accepted” number of Jews murdered is based solely on the total difference between the number of Jews before and after the War in Nazi controlled territories. It does not take into account the many Jews who were deported or fled these territories therefore it is wrong.

The number may not be exact. But no one has said that it is exact. We all know this.

So we shouldn’t work to end world hunger and general suffering? Because it is not tangible?

It is tangible, because it is doable.

I’ve been to Auschwitz and Dachau and didn’t see anything that could and/or would have been used to gas people.

Maybe you didn’t, but Cardinal O’Conner saw them and so did Pope John Paul II and others too.

Maximilian Kolbe was killed by an injection of phenol. In terms of Edith Stein, see above.

You are right about St. Maximilian Kolbe. He did die by lethal injection, but he wrote about the chambers in his journal which was used at his cononization hearings. I’m not sure to what your referring when you say, see above re: St. Edith Stein.

Then there is the Holy Father himself who says that they did exist.

Again the point is, why do you even want to argue this? How does this argument help to promote the faith? The idea here is not to prove that the bishop was right. The point here is that the bishop was told not to say such a thing and that you and I are also told not to hold such a position, by the Church. We either agree to obey or we can leave the Church, but we can’t have it both ways. We cannot choose to remain in the Church and disobey when she tells us to put distance between us and this opinion.

In the end, the point is not about five million vs six million, but about the fact that genocide is a horrible evil to be condemned and avoided and any discussion that minimizes the Church’s position on genocide is to avoided.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

The number may not be exact. But no one has said that it is exact. We all know this.

Perhaps, but anything less than 6 million and you’re branded as a Holocaust denier.

It is tangible, because it is doable.

Theoretically, yes. In practice? No.

Maybe you didn’t, but Cardinal O’Conner saw them and so did Pope John Paul II and others too.

The Cardinal and the Pope saw what they were taught to see. The “gas chambers” are, in fact, most likely steam chambers such as those at Treblinka. It wouldn’t be the first time that a Cardinal and a Pope were wrong.

The point here is that the bishop was told not to say such a thing and that you and I are also told not to hold such a position, by the Church.

The Church has no authority to tell Williamson, me, you, or anyone else not to hold such a position let alone to tell anyone that they cannot express such a position as as an individual. It’s authority ends at moral teaching and there is nothing immoral about seeking truth and challenging untruth even if it does inconvenience the Church in matters of worldly politics and inter-religious hobnobbing.

 

[JReducation]

Perhaps, but anything less than 6 million and you’re branded as a Holocaust denier.

Theoretically, yes. In practice? No.

The Cardinal and the Pope saw what they were taught to see. The “gas chambers” are, in fact, most likely steam chambers such as those at Treblinka. It wouldn’t be the first time that a Cardinal and a Pope were wrong.

The Church has no authority to tell Williamson, me, you, or anyone else not to hold such a position let alone to tell anyone that they cannot express such a position as as an individual. It’s authority ends at moral teaching and there is nothing immoral about seeking truth and challenging untruth even if it does inconvenience the Church in matters of worldly politics and inter-religious hobnobbing.

I can see that this conversation is not going anywhere. You may feel that the Church has no authority to order you to put distance between yourself and this position. I don’t. I promised obedience until death in all things. I am not about to break that promise over this issue.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

I can see that this conversation is not going anywhere. You may feel that the Church has no authority to order you to put distance between yourself and this position. I don’t. I promised obedience until death in all things. I am not about to break that promise over this issue.

I acknowledge the authority of the Church in ordering people not to express this position in an official capacity but the Church does not have the authority to order anyone to “put distance” between themselves and a position which has nothing to do with the doctrine of the Church. I can’t imagine that you made a promise of obedience to stop thinking for yourself and blindly follow anything and everything the Church says which does not have any relation to Church doctrine.

 

[JReducation]

I acknowledge the authority of the Church in ordering people not to express this position in an official capacity but the Church does not have the authority to order anyone to “put distance” between themselves and a position which has nothing to do with the doctrine of the Church. I can’t imagine that you made a promise of obedience to stop thinking for yourself and blindly follow anything and everything the Church says which does not have any relation to Church doctrine.

Then my son, you really do not understand the vow of obedience. The vow of obedience is has no boundaries other than sin. When we vow obedience, a brother surrenders his entire will, not only on doctrinal matters, but on all mattes. He becomes like Christ, obedient in ALL things, but sin. Like Mary he alway says yes, to the voice of Christ, regardless of what Christ’s asks of us.

You see, the vow of obedience is about becoming small, about disappearing so that Christ may rise and shine through him. You do not disappear if you hold on to your opinions. You can’t be humble unless you are willing to be silent when you are told to do so. There is no compromise in obedience. Obedience must always be willing to die to oneself, to give up one’s opinion, one’s emotions and one’s feelings, so that one may not exist, but only Christ exists through us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[chosen_people]

There aren’t any Nazi records referring to the gassing of Jews.

Neither Williamson nor I are saying that many Jews were not murdered by the Nazis. Williamson points out the fact that there is no hard evidence of Jews being gassed by the Nazis and I am pointing out the undeniable fact that the 6 million figure is incorrect.

Well actually that is exactly what Bishop Williamson is saying. In the past he has denied the Shoah completely. He now states that only some three hundred thousand died’ that there was no final solution plan and that Jews were not murdered in gas chambers. Now how did this whole gassing the Jews - Shoah- millions of Jews killed myth develop? Who was behind it? What was their motivation? When did you first discover the “undeniable fact” that six million Jews were not murdered? How many according to your expert opinion did die? What is the basis for opinion? What is your academic background and have you published any papers on this subject? How were the Jews able to get so many people to go along with this myth and even testify to its occurrence? One of the reasons I’m asking is that if you did have any idea about history and the Jews, you would probably want to change your log-in name from Emperor Napoleon.

 

[nsper7]

By the way, it should be noted that Holocaust denial is not the first crazed proposition +Williamson has held (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Williamson_(bishop)#Views; even though Wikipedia cannot be trusted on its own, there are plenty of references sourced and linked to). Quite frankly, he sounded like a bit of a nut and remember that the SSPX removed him from his post as Rector of that Seminary down in Argentina and I think Bishop Fellay, the Superior General of the SSPX, warned +Williamson that anymore comments on the Holocaust and he would find himself outside the Order.

 

[Aramis]

I acknowledge the authority of the Church in ordering people not to express this position in an official capacity but the Church does not have the authority to order anyone to “put distance” between themselves and a position which has nothing to do with the doctrine of the Church. I can’t imagine that you made a promise of obedience to stop thinking for yourself and blindly follow anything and everything the Church says which does not have any relation to Church doctrine.

Bishops have almost no “unofficial capacity”… they are, for lack of a better term, in the spotlight as official spokesmen of the church the moment they appear in public. Further, they have thrice promised obedience to Rome, if not more often, because they have been ordained thrice.

Bishop Williamson seems not to grok this at all. Every time he speaks on Nazism, he sins grievously; for his ske, one hopes he realy doesn’t understand…

 

[pnewton]

The Cardinal and the Pope saw what they were taught to see.

This leaves the question open of who taught Williamson what he believes and why.

The Church has no authority to tell Williamson, me, you, or anyone else not to hold such a position let alone to tell anyone that they cannot express such a position as as an individual.

The Church has authority even over non-moral activities of those who give an oath of obedience. Unless the case could be made that one must spread the gospel of fewer people killed in the Holocaust, there are no moral grounds for disobedience.

… and I am pointing out the undeniable fact that the 6 million figure is incorrect.

I’ve always thought that historical truth should prevail over legally enforced error.

Undeniable? The whole world is wrong but you and you are the saying your opinion is undeniable?