Williamson fined $18,000 over Holocaust remarks [CN-USA]

[pnewton]

Then my son, you really do not understand the vow of obedience. The vow of obedience is has no boundaries other than sin. When we vow obedience, a brother surrenders his entire will, not only on doctrinal matters, but on all mattes. He becomes like Christ, obedient in ALL things, but sin. Like Mary he alway says yes, to the voice of Christ, regardless of what Christ’s asks of us.

I understand that non-Catholics may not get this. Let me use a secular example. In my job, I have a whole list of things I may not do, like frequent bars where I live, that are legal, but reflect poorly on my job. Companies often have things that tie directly to the job that restrict people off the job. Priest are never considered off. That is the heavy vocation they take on. Everything they do reflects on who they are, like a lamp set in a post. Obedience is both a burden they accept and something that lightens their burden. For Christians, we mirror inward what priests, bishops and religious brothers and sisters do outward. We have a vow of obedience to God and must live this vow at all times.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

The Church has no authority to tell Williamson, me, you, or anyone else not to hold such a position let alone to tell anyone that they cannot express such a position as as an individual. It’s authority ends at moral teaching and there is nothing immoral about seeking truth and challenging untruth even if it does inconvenience the Church in matters of worldly politics and inter-religious hobnobbing.

The “6 million dead Jews” has become a dogma that no one, and I mean no one, can question. We have Bishops today who openly question, and even deny, formally defined dogmas of the faith and there is no public outcry. But let someone question the “dogma” of the 6 million Jews killed by Hitler, and all hell breaks loose.

Have you ever wondered why we hear so much about the alledged 6 million Jews killed by Hitler, but almost nothing about the 100 million Gentiles killed by the Communists? And what about the millions of Christians being killed today by the Muslims? (And as an aside, the Polish National archives places the number of Jews killed at 1 million, not 6.)

Society used to be a Christian Society. It was founded on the laws of the Gospel, and watch out to whoever publicly denied the truths of Christianity. Today, we have a new “holocaust” and a new Messiah.

The new Messiah is the Jewish people as a corporate body, and the new holocaust, which replaced the one on Mt. Calvary 2000 years ago, is that which took place under Hitler.

Just as it was forbidden to deny the true Messiah and his holocaust during the days of Christendom, so too is it forbidden to deny the false “messiah”, and its holocaust today.

In the days of Christendom, not only was it not permitted to openly cast doubt on the true Messiah, but you weren’t even permitted to question any of His teaching. To do either placed you immediately in the category of unbeliever. So too today, not only is it forbidden to question the holocaust, but it is not even permitted to question a particular aspect of it (such as the actual number, or the means used). To even question one aspect of the “holocaust” of the false Messiah, immediately places one in the category of an “unbeleiver” - which today is called “a holocaust denier”.

In the days of Christendom, nothing was worse than being a heretic; today, nothing is worse than being a “holocaust denier”.

Folks, wake up and see what is happening. And if you need a little coffee, here’s a link

 

[Kaninchen]

I’ve always thought that the only interesting thing about holocaust deniers is “what motivates the individual denier, what personal, psychological or material benefits are in it for them?”

 

[chosen_people]

The “6 million dead Jews” has become a dogma that no one, and I mean no one, can question. We have Bishops today who openly question, and even deny, formally defined dogmas of the faith and there is no public outcry. But let someone question the “dogma” of the 6 million Jews killed by Hitler, and all hell breaks loose.

Have you ever wondered why we hear so much about the alledged 6 million Jews killed by Hitler, but almost nothing about the 100 million Gentiles killed by the Communists? And what about the millions of Christians being killed today by the Muslims? (And as an aside, the Polish National archives places the number of Jews killed at 1 million, not 6.)

Society used to be a Christian Society. It was founded on the laws of the Gospel, and watch out to whoever publicly denied the truths of Christianity. Today, we have a new “holocaust” and a new Messiah.

The new Messiah is the Jewish people as a corporate body, and the new holocaust, which replaced the one on Mt. Calvary 2000 years ago, is that which took place under Hitler.

Just as it was forbidden to deny the true Messiah and his holocaust during the days of Christendom, so too is it forbidden to deny the false “messiah”, and its holocaust today.

In the days of Christendom, not only was it not permitted to openly cast doubt on the true Messiah, but you weren’t even permitted to question any of His teaching. To do either placed you immediately in the category of unbeliever. So too today, not only is it forbidden to question the holocaust, but it is not even permitted to question a particular aspect of it (such as the actual number, or the means used). To even question one aspect of the “holocaust” of the false Messiah, immediately places one in the category of an “unbeleiver” - which today is called “a holocaust denier”.

In the days of Christendom, nothing was worse than being a heretic; today, nothing is worse than being a “holocaust denier”.

Folks, wake up and see what is happening. And if you need a little coffee, here’s a link

I believe it is you who has just woken up. For some two thousand years since the invention of Christianity it has been a well known fact that Jews by their very existence undermine Christians and Christianity. That is why the Catholic Church placed the Jews in ghettos and why they made them wear special clothing marking them as Jews and why they were not permitted to work with Christians or to employ Christians or eat with Christians or socialize with Christians. That is why good Christians on their way to the Crusades had to slaughter town after town of Jews. That is why there was a Spanish Inquisition. This is ultimately why, the Jews as a negative detrimental force in society, that the Shoah took place. Remember it was no easy task to murder one in every two European Jews, it required the cooperation of the entire western world to close their borders, to resist the temptation to send a single bomber on a single mission with a single bomb to stop the genocide for a single hour. That is the key to understanding Jadwabne Poland in July 1941 and it is the key to understanding why nothing changed even after the Shoah in Kielce Poland in 1946. Read your eight homilies against the Jews, read your Belloc, you Fahey and your Feeney.

Now since Napoleon in the beginning of the 19th Century Jews have gradually been allowed to integrate into western society, get citizenship in their countries of residence, slowly gain similar legal and civil rights as if they were Christians. In places like Sweden as early as 1960 a Jew could be elected to public office (just imagine!). Things have gotten totally out of hand. These massive number of Jews making up a full two tenths of one per cent of the world’s population now control everything! The banks, the media and all the power in the world. And they use this power, given to them by the Devil and the anti-Christ, to undermine Christianity. Now does it seem logical to you that Jews are contributing to science and technology and medicine at a rate fifteen times greater than their numbers without it being the work of Satan. When you turn on your computer or your cell phone or even the sprinklers to water your lawn you are being undermined by Jews. Suffice it to say that the top ten secular Christmas songs were either written entirely by Jews or in partnership with Jews. Need I say more!

 

[StAdalbert2009]

I believe it is you who has just woken up. For some two thousand years since the invention of Christianity it has been a well known fact that Jews by their very existence undermine Christians and Christianity. That is why the Catholic Church placed the Jews in ghettos and why they made them wear special clothing marking them as Jews and why they were not permitted to work with Christians or to employ Christians or eat with Christians or socialize with Christians. !

You have been hoodwinked by anti-Catholic propagandists!!!

Here is a historical document which from Pope Benedict XIV which will shed some light on the TRUTH!

**A QUO PRIMUM (On Jews and Christians Living in the Same Place) **

ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/B14AQUO.HTM

Pope Benedict XIV​

**Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV promulgated on 14 June 1751. **

To the Primate, Archbishops and Bishops, of the Kingdom of Poland.

Venerable Brothers, We give you Greeting and Our Apostolic Blessing.

God in his goodness allowed Catholicism to take root in Poland at the end of the tenth century during the reign of Our predecessor Leo VIII. At the time, the efforts of King Mieszko and his Christian consort Dobrava (Dlugosz, Annalium vestrorum Scriptorum, 2, 94) encouraged the spread of Christianity. Since then pious and devout Poles have continued the faithful practice of their new religion. During this time various sects have attempted to establish themselves in Poland and to spread the seeds of their errors, heresies, and evil opinions. But the faithful Polish people have strongly withstood their efforts.

We esteem the glorious memory of Polish martyrs, confessors, virgins and holy men; their exemplary lives are recorded in the holy annals of the Church. We also recall the many successful councils and synods which gloriously defeated the Lutherans who tried tenaciously, using a variety of methods, to establish a foothold and welcome in this kingdom. At that time indeed the great council of Piotrkow met under Our great predecessor and fellow citizen Gregory XIII, with prelate Lippomano, bishop of Verona and Apostolic nuncio, as its president. To the great glory of God it prohibited the principle of freedom of conscience; adherents of this principle were seeking to introduce and establish it in Poland. Another threat to Christians has been the influence of Jewish faithlessness; this influence was strong because Christians and Jews were living in the same cities and towns. However their influence was minimized because the Polish bishops did all they could to aid the Poles in their resistance to the Jews. What the bishops did is recorded in the large tome which contains the constitutions of the synods of the province of Gniezno. These facts establish most clearly and plainly the great glory which the Polish nation has won for its zeal in preserving the holy religion embraced by its ancestors so many ages before.

1. In regard to the matter of the Jews We must express our concern, which causes Us to cry aloud: “the best color has been changed.” Our credible experts in Polish affairs and the citizens of Poland itself who communicated with Us have informed Us that the number of Jews in that country has greatly increased. In fact, some cities and towns which had been predominantly Christian are now practically devoid of Christians.

The Jews have so replaced the Christians that some parishes are about to lose their ministers because their revenue has dwindled so drastically. Because the Jews control businesses selling liquor and even wine, they are therefore allowed to supervise the collection of public revenues. They have also gained control of inns, bankrupt estates, villages and public land by means of which they have subjugated poor Christian farmers. The Jews are cruel taskmasters, not only working the farmers harshly and forcing them to carry excessive loads, but also whipping them for punishment. So it has come about that those poor farmers are the subjects of the Jews, submissive to their will and power. Furthermore, although the power to punish lies with the Christian official, he must comply with the commands of the Jews and inflict the punishments they desire. If he doesn’t, he would lose his post. Therefore the tyrannical orders of the Jews have to be carried out.

1. In addition to the harm done to Christians in these regards, other unreasonable matters can result in even greater loss and danger. The most serious is that some households of the great have employed a Jew as “Superintendent-of-the-Household”; in this capacity, they not only administer domestic and economic matters, but they also ceaselessly exhibit and flaunt authority over the Christians they are living with. It is now even commonplace for Christians and Jews to intermingle anywhere. But what is even less comprehensible is that Jews fearlessly keep Christians of both sexes in their houses as their domestics, bound to their service. Furthermore, by means of their particular practice of commerce, they amass a great store of money and then by an exorbitant rate of interest utterly destroy the wealth and inheritance of Christians. Even if they borrow money from Christians at heavy and undue interest with their synagogues as surety, it is obvious to anyone who thinks about it that they do so to employ the money borrowed from Christians in their commercial dealings; this enables them to make enough profit to pay the agreed interest and simultaneously increase their own store. At the same time, they gain as many defenders of their synagogues and themselves as they have creditors.

To Be Continued…

 

[StAdalbert2009]

A Quo Primum continued…

1. The famous monk, Radulph, inspired long ago by an excess of zeal, was so inflamed against the Jews that he traversed Germany and France in the twelfth century and, by preaching against the Jews as the enemies of our holy religion, incited Christians to destroy them. This resulted in the deaths of a very large number of Jews. What must we think his deeds or thoughts would be if he were now alive and saw what was happening in Poland? But the great St. Bernard opposed this immoderate and maddened zeal of Radulph, and wrote to the clergy and people of eastern France: “The Jews are not to be persecuted: they are not to be slaughtered: they are not even to be driven out. Examine the divine writings concerning them. We read in the psalm a new kind of prophecy concerning the Jews: God has shown me, says the Church, on the subject of my enemies, not to slay them in case they should ever forget my people. Alive, however, they are eminent reminders for us of the Lord’s suffering. On this account they are scattered through all lands in order that they may be witnesses to Our redemption while they pay the just penalties for so great a crime” (epistle 363). And he writes this to Henry, Archbishop of Mainz: “Doesn’t the Church every day triumph more fully over the Jews in convicting or converting them than if once and for all she destroyed them with the edge of the sword: Surely it is not in vain that the Church has established the universal prayer which is offered up for the faithless Jews from the rising of the sun to its setting, that the Lord God may remove the veil from their hearts, that they may be rescued from their darkness into the light of truth. For unless it hoped that those who do not believe would believe, it would obviously be futile and empty to pray for them.” (epistle 365).
2. Peter, abbot of Cluny, likewise wrote against Radulph to King Louis of France, and urged him not to allow the destruction of the Jews. But at the same time he encouraged him to punish their excesses and to strip them of the property they had taken from Christians or had acquired by usury; he should then devote the value of this to the use and benefit of holy religion, as may be seen in the Annals of Venerable Cardinal Baronius (1146). In this matter, as in all others, We adopt the same norm of action as did the Roman Pontiffs who were Our venerable predecessors. Alexander III forbade Christians under heavy penalties to accept permanent domestic service under Jews. “Let them not continually devote themselves to the service of Jews for a wage.” He sets out the reason for this in the decretal Ad haec, de Judaeis. “Because Jewish ways do not harmonize in any way with ours and they could easily turn the minds of the simple to their own superstitions and faithlessness through continual intercourse and unceasing acquaintance.” Innocent III, after saying that Jews were being received by Christians into their cities, warns that the method and condition of this reception should guard against their repaying the benefit with evildoing. “They on being admitted to our acquaintance in a spirit of mercy, repay us, the popular proverb says, as the mouse in the wallet, the snake in the lap and fire in the bosom usually repay their host.” The same Pope stated that it was fitting for Jews to serve Christians rather than vice versa and added: “Let not the sons of the free woman be servants of the sons of the handmaid; but as servants rejected by their lord for whose death they evilly conspired, let them realize that the result of this deed is to make them servants of those whom Christ’s death made free,” as we read in his decretal Etsi Judaeos. Likewise in the decretal Cum sit nimis under the same heading de Judaeis, et Saracenis, he forbids the promotion of Jews to public office: “forbidding Jews to be promoted to public offices since in such circumstances they may be very dangerous to Christians.” Innocent IV, also, in writing to St. Louis, King of France, who intended to drive the Jews beyond the boundaries of his kingdom, approves of this plan since the Jews gave very little heed to the regulations made by the Apostolic See in their regard: “Since We strive with all Our heart for the salvation of souls, We grant you full power by the authority of this letter to expel the Jews, particularly since We have learned that they do not obey the said statutes issued by this See against them” (Raynaldus, Annals, A.D. 1253, no. 34).
3. But if it is asked what matters the Apostolic See forbids to Jews living in the same cities as Christians, We will say that all those activities which are now allowed in Poland are forbidden; these We recounted above. There is no need of much reading to understand that this is the clear truth of the matter. It is enough to peruse decretals with the heading de Judaeis, et Saracenis; the constitutions of Our predecessors, the Roman Pontiffs Nicholas IV, Paul IV, St. Pius V, Gregory XIII and Clement VIII are readily available in the Roman Bullarium. To understand these matters most clearly, Venerable Brothers, you do not even need to read those. You will recall the statutes and prescripts of the synods of your predecessors; they always entered in their constitutions every measure concerning the Jews which was sanctioned and ordained by the Roman Pontiffs.

To Be Continued…

 

[StAdalbert2009]

The remainder of A Quo Primum…

1. The essence of the difficulty, however, is that either the sanctions of the synods are forgotten or they are not put into effect. To you then, Venerable Brothers, passes the task of renewing those sanctions. The nature of your office requires that you carefully encourage their implementation. In this matter begin with the clergy, as is fair and reasonable. These will have to show others the right way to act, and light the way for the rest by their example. For in God’s mercy, We hope that the good example of the clergy will lead the straying laity back to the straight path. You will be able to give these orders and commands easily and confidently, in that neither your property nor your privileges are hired to Jews; furthermore you do no business with them and you neither lend them money nor borrow from them. Thus, you will be free from and unaffected by all dealings with them.
2. The sacred canons, prescribe that in the most important cases, such as the present, censures should be imposed upon the recalcitrant; and that those cases which bode danger and ruin to religion should be reckoned as reserved cases in which only the bishop can give absolution. The Council of Trent considered your jurisdiction when it affirmed your right to reserve cases. It did not restrict such cases to public crimes only, but extended them to include more notorious and serious cases, provided they were not purely internal. But we have often said that some cases should be considered more notorious and serious. These are cases, to which men are more prone, which are a danger both to ecclesiastical discipline and to the salvation of the souls which have been entrusted to your episcopal care. We have discussed these at length in Our treatise On the diocesan synod, Book 5, 5.
3. In this matter We will help as much as possible. If you have to proceed against ecclesiastics exempt from your jurisdiction, you will doubtless encounter additional difficulties. Therefore We are giving Our Venerable Brother Archbishop Nicaenus, Our Nuncio there, a mandate appropriate for this business, in order that he may supply for you the necessary means from the powers entrusted to him. At the same time We promise you that when the situation arises, We will cooperate energetically and effectively with those whose combined authority and power are appropriate to remove this stain of shame from Poland. But first Venerable Brothers, ask aid from God, the source of all things. From Him beg help for Us and this Apostolic See. And while We embrace you in the fullness of charity, We lovingly impart to you, Our brothers, and to the flocks entrusted to your care, Our Apostolic Blessing.

Given at Castelgandolfo on the 14th of June 1751 in the eleventh year of Our Pontificate.

Electronic Copyright © 1998 EWTN
All Rights Reserved

 

[StAdalbert2009]

chosen people - Here is a little more history for you… true history! Perhaps you are not interested in truth, but all Catholics need to be made aware of the horrible propaganda out there and what is the truth. The following historical document from Pope Gregory X was issued in 1272 and regarded the PROTECTION of the Jews. Yes, that is right, the ‘horrible’ Catholic Church actually issued a letter in protection of the Jews.

**Papal Protection of the Jews **

Pope Gregory X

October 7, 1272

Gregory, bishop, servant of the servants of God, extends greetings and the apostolic benediction to the beloved sons in Christ, the faithful Christians, to those here now and to those in the future.

Even as it is not allowed to the Jews in their assemblies presumptuously to undertake for themselves more than that which is permitted them by law, even so they ought not to suffer any disadvantage in those [privileges] which have been granted them. [This sentence, first written by Gregory I in 598, embodies the attitude of the Church to the Jew.] Although they prefer to persist in their stubbornness rather than to recognize the words of their prophets and the mysteries of the Scriptures [which, according to the Church, foretold the coming of Jesus], and thus to arrive at a knowledge of Christian faith and salvation; nevertheless, inasmuch as they have made an appeal for our protection and help, we therefore admit their petition and offer them the shield of our protection through the clemency of Christian piety. In so doing we follow in the footsteps of our predecessors of blessed memory, the popes of Rome – Calixtus, Eugene, Alexander, Clement, Innocent, and Honorius.

We decree moreover that no Christian shall compel them or any one of their group to come to baptism unwillingly. But if any one of them shall take refuge of his own accord with Christians, because of conviction, then, after his intention will have been manifest, he shall be made a Christian without any intrigue. For, indeed, that person who is known to have come to Christian baptism not freely, but unwillingly, is not believed to posses the Christian faith.

[The Church, in principle, never approved of compulsory baptism of Jews.]

Moreover no Christian shall presume to seize, imprison, wound, torture, mutilate, kill or inflict violence on them; furthermore no one shall presume, except by judicial action of the authorities of the country, to change the good customs in the land where they live for the purpose of taking their money or goods from them or from others.

In addition, no one shall disturb them in any way during the celebration of their festivals, whether by day or by night, with clubs or stones or anything else. Also no one shall exact any compulsory service of them unless it be that which they have been accustomed to render in previous times.

[Up to this point Gregory X has merely repeated the bulls of his predecessors.]

Inasmuch as the Jews are not able to bear witness against the Christians, we decree furthermore that the testimony of Christians against Jews shall not be valid unless there is among these Christians some Jew who is there for the purpose of offering testimony.

[the Church council at Carthage, as early as 419, had forbidden Jews to bear witness against Christians; Justinian’s law of 531 repeats this prohibition. Gregory X here – in accordance with the medieval legal principle that every man has the right to be judged by his peers – insists that Jews can only be condemned if there are Jewish as well as Christian witnesses against them. A similar law to protect Jews was issued before 825 by Louis the Pious (814 - 840) of the Frankish Empire.]

Since it happens occasionally that some Christians lose their children, the Jews are accused by their enemies of secretly carrying off and killing these same Christian children and of making sacrifices of the heart and blood of these very children. It happens, too, that the parents of these very children, or some other Christian enemies of these Jews, secretly hide these very children in order that they may be able to injure these Jews, and in order that they may be able to extort from them a certain amount of money by redeeming them from their straits. [Following the lead of Innocent IV, 1247, Gregory attacks the ritual murder charge at length.]

And most falsely do these Christians claim that the Jews have secretly and furtively carried away these children and killed them, and that the Jews offer sacrifices from the heart and the blood of these children, since their law in this matter precisely and expressly forbids Jews to sacrifice, eat, or drink the blood, or to eat the flesh of animals having claws. This has been demonstrated many times at our court by Jews converted to the Christian faith: nevertheless very many Jews are often seized and detained unjustly because of this.

We decree, therefore, that Christians need not be obeyed against Jews in a case or situation of this type, and we order that Jews seized under such a silly pretext be freed from imprisonment, and that they shall not be arrested henceforth on such a miserable pretext, unless – which we do not believe – they be caught in the commission of the crime. We decree that no Christian shall stir up anything new against them, but that they should be maintained in that status and position in which they were in the time of our predecessors, from antiquity till now.

continue…

 

[StAdalbert2009]

Papal Protection continued…

We decree in order to stop the wickedness and avarice of bad men, that no one shall dare to devastate or to destroy a cemetery of the Jews or to dig up human bodies for the sake of getting money. [The Jews had to pay a ransom before the bodies of their dead were restored to them.] Moreover, if any one, after having known the content of this decree, should – which we hope will not happen – attempt audaciously to act contrary to it, then let him suffer punishment in his rank and position, or let him be punished by the penalty of excommunication, unless he makes amends for his boldness by proper recompense. **Moreover, we wish that only those Jews who have not attempted to contrive anything toward the destruction of the Christian faith be fortified by support of such protection … **

Given at Orvieto by the hand of the Magister John Lectator, vice-chancellor of the Holy Roman Church, on the 7th of October, in the first indiction [cycle of fifteen years], in **the year 1272 **of the divine incarnation, in the first year of the pontificate of our master, the Pope Gregory X.

papalencyclicals.net/Greg10/g10jprot.htm

So, the truth is the Jews are not all that blameless. And the Catholic Church is falsely accused of many misdeeds it did not do. The 2 hisorical documents I just posted make that very clear. I am sure there are more that can be found, too.

 

[pnewton]

Quo Primum does not address speech laws or the Holocaust, the topic of this thread.

 

[StAdalbert2009]

Quo Primum does not address speech laws or the Holocaust, the topic of this thread.

A Quo Primum shows that the comments made by ‘chosen people’ against the Catholic Church are completely false. Some of the accusations made by ‘chosen people’ are expressly discussed in A Quo Primum, but it is shown not to be the Catholics misdeeds, but rather the misdeeds of the Jews. It is very relevant when someone comes on to a Catholic messageboard and spreads false propaganda against Holy Mother Church to show what they are spreading is false!!!

 

[pnewton]

A Quo Primum shows that the comments made by ‘chosen people’ against the Catholic Church are completely false. Some of the accusations made by ‘chosen people’ are expressly discussed in A Quo Primum, but it is shown not to be the Catholics misdeeds, but rather the misdeeds of the Jews. It is very relevant when someone comes on to a Catholic messageboard and spreads false propaganda against Holy Mother Church to show what they are spreading is false!!!

They are still off topic. They are dated. They lack any charism in the area of history or forensics. Antisemetism will not be allowed here. A new poster should read the rules before jumping in with inflammatory posts that reveals nothing except the type of person they are.

 

[StAdalbert2009]

They are still off topic. They are dated. They lack any charism in the area of history or forensics. Antisemetism will not be allowed here. A new poster should read the rules before jumping in with inflammatory posts that reveals nothing except the type of person they are.

They are papal documents and factual historical documents. They are magisterial teachings that you are bound, as a Catholic, to accept. It is not only historical, but doctrinal. ‘chosen people’ made false accusations agaisnt the Church in this thread. They are a relevant response to ‘chosen people’. These 2 VERY historical Catholic Papal Documents show that the accusations made by ‘chosen people’ are false. They are in NO way anit-semitic. They show that the Church - A) protected the Jews, and B) that when they made laws forbidding Catholic FOR Jews, it was for good reason. Yet they did not do all that ‘chosen people’ said they did when they gave this directive. Again, nothing anit-semitic there. The Jewish people are just like everyone else, they have original sin and are capable of horrible misdeeds. They are not a blameless people. Just like everyone else, they have done wrong thorughout history. Truth is not anti anything - to be against truth is to be anti.

I am in no way anti-semitic, but I am pro-Catholic!

 

[Kaninchen]

They are papal documents and factual historical documents.

One of the most democratic and freedom-guaranteeing constitutions in history was the USSR’s ‘Stalin Constitution’ of 1936 it was, however, not worth the paper it was printed on.

 

[chosen_people]

One of the most democratic and freedom-guaranteeing constitutions in history was the USSR’s ‘Stalin Constitution’ of 1936 it was, however, not worth the paper it was printed on.

Well yes but the Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV promulgated on 14 June 1751 is virulently anti-Semitic document which comes to justify horrendous Catholic edicts against those “tyrannical” Jews. It is considered at variance with Vatican II. The poster actually believes that this document shows that the anti-Jewish Church edicts were logical, rational, moral and acceptable. Since the end of the Papal state and temporal power against Jews after Pius IX (of Edgardo Mortara fame and for publicly referring to the Jews of Rome as howling dogs) such edicts are no longer in effect. Jews are now free to live and work and socialize with Catholics.Now has this brought about the moral decay of Catholicism and if so, how can Catholics be protected from the Jews? Certainly the SSPX appears to think Jews have a detrimental effect.

So is all this connected to people like Bishop Williamson and his ideas about the Shoah? The simple answer is yes.

 

[pnewton]

They are papal documents and factual historical documents. They are magisterial teachings that you are bound, as a Catholic, to accept.

If I lived then, I would. I do not. I am bound by what the Church teaches in area of faith and morals, not what the Church *taught *was in areas outside of faith and morals in the thirteenth and eighteenth centuries.

Do you have anything from the Catechism of the** Catholic Church** where moral principles in this document is applied to today?

 

[Michael_Francis]

***Thread closed pending moderator review by ***Eric Hilbert

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

**Almost a page of posts have been deleted and a poster banned.
The thread has been re-opened. But I suggest the posts remain charitable. **

 

[JReducation]

The question is not whether Catholics and Jews were just and kind to each other in the past. We know that there were all kinds of conflicts and injustices committed by all parties. We cannot try to cover the Sun with a dime. It just does not work.

The issue here is very simple. Bishop Williamson made a mistake. His opinion is not the opinion that the Church holds. As a bishop he is bound by a promise of obedience to follow orders. His denial of the Shoah is not acceptable to the Apostolic See. And yes, the Apsotolic See has the moral authority to demand that any Catholic refrain from representing Catholicism.

In this case, the autority takes on a more serioius note, because we’re talking about a cleric. Clerics, religious sisters and religious brothers are bound by obedience to represent the Church as the Church says we can and should, not as we say that we can and should. Diosobedience is never justifiable, unless you are ordered to sin. For something to be a sin, it has to be recognized as such by the Church, not by the individual. As individuals, we do not define sin. The Church does.

On the flip side, as individuals, we clerics and religious do not decide what opinions we can share. That’s decided for us by the Church. We surrender our will, our opinion, our wishes, and our aspirations to the Church when we vow obedience. Otherwise, the vow has no meaning. If I had the authority to make up my own mind about what I can say in public, even if what I say is in conflict with what the Church says or wants me to say, then the vow of obedience is relative.

On a site such as CAF where so many complain about relativism, I find that I do not understand how we cannot see disobedience by a vowed cleric as relativism. It’s very different to bring up these arguments in a classroom or an academic debate between one’s peers. In such a situation the playing field is level, because there are others of equal intelligence and with equal academic preparation for a formidable, interesting and fair debate. But television is not a university classroom. In the public sector, a cleric or religious must represent the Church. This means never saying anything that is in conflict with Church authority and that may sabotage the Church’s work. Bishop Williamson’s statements are in conflict with his pope and undermines the relationship that his Church has been trying to build with the Jewish community.

The bishop’s statements raise an important question. Does he really want this reconciliation with the Church and if so, why would he say something for which he knew the pope would slam him? He not only hurt the Holy Father’s efforts to build a relationship with the Jewish community, but he did not do much good for the SSPX either. I say this with all due respect to the bishop, because he is a bishop and deserves my respect.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Kaninchen]

The issue here is very simple. Bishop Williamson made a mistake.

Does one go around being an accidental holocaust denier? I have to say that I find that very doubtful, you know, most holocaust deniers I’ve ever come across do it very seriously.