Tom:
(I should like to study more of Phenomenology as JPII employed it and valued it in his thinking and writing as well. ) That is just a stray thought pertaining to our topic.
I don’t need to define “hate”. Everyone knows what it is, unfortunately. Pure logic, will not separate one from that, but if you must, consider the cement truck.
Sorry for being clear as mud. I should have said I don’t know what you believe hate is. If you don’t want to define it, we may use this definition from reference.dictionary.com:
I had a memorable dialogue on an atheist forum regarding the topic of consciousness and how it relates to experience. The prevailing opinion was that God’s omniscience means the future is unchagable. So human free will is a myth and God is the cause of all evil.
Yes, but the difficulty for me when I carefully consider the words of Christ is knowing where the hyperbole ends and the literal begins. I mean, consider what he says right before the words you quoted:
Wise words, those! And I believe Paul agrees when he writes:
Perhaps it would help me to discuss the rest of John 15. After speaking of love, Jesus talks about hate:
We speak about “Love” in many ways, some of which are compassion, feelings, emotions, but Love is actually a Being.
Doesn’t Jesus say, “Suffer the little children to come unto me for I tell you such is the kingdom of God?” and “unless you become as little children, you will not enter the kingdom?” or am I confused.
This is a good thing to ponder… I will think on it…
Hmmm, well to me, what is to be taken literally and what is metaphor is fairly self-evident- particularly, the grapevine metaphor.
…I think we can all relate to that at some point in our lives.I define “hate” as push away from. I define “love” as pull towards. If I “hate” something I do everything within my means to put that thing that I hate out of my life, to the point that it is not there.
Not sure I understand. Are you saying that when I experience compassion, what I feel is not an emotion–what I feel is God? Or are you saying the love I feel for others is a different kind of love from the love God is?
Well, we might both be confused! Let’s see if we can put our heads together to help each other become more certain. I think what a child does is trust an adult. So Jesus might be telling us to trust him, even when we don’t understand. Such trust is faith, I think. But faith is not the same as either love or wisdom. Don’t you agree?
I think you have a much greater faith in humanity than I have in humanity or myself! When I read these words of Paul, I wonder if love really is easy:
Agreed. But I’m not opposed to going in a different direction, if you want. As Socrates said, true philosophers are those who “care not whether their words are many or few, so long as they lead to the truth.”
Yes, and I think that what makes the vine statement obvious is his involving us. I mean, if he had said, “I am the vine,” and left out, “you are the branches,” I think it probable that more Christians, today might be of the opinion that the earth is God. By saying, “you are the branches,” it is clear to most that such is not the case. But in other instances, it is not so easy to discern.
You might be right. I suppose we’d have to examine an obvious example of an act that is not merely an expression of hate, but is hate itself. I suppose we could consider the crucifixion of Christ. What about the act makes it sure that it is hate, rather than merely a cause if hateful emotion?As to your last question, I think it could be both/and, however…sometimes people persecute us without intent…
Indeed! As Socrates said: “A wise man is not likely to talk nonsense. So we ought to carefully consider what he has to say.”
Well, I think there might be instances where hateful acts can be committed without emotion, as with sociopaths. They are able to “push away” without feeling any animosity whatsoever. They are also able to “draw near” without feeling compassion. So one might say hate or love can sometimes be acts without any emotion. I also suppose that one can feel compassion or animosity but not act on such feelings. I myself have done so, and I think you must have done so, as well.
Rock-wanna-be! I have trouble with the enemies too!
Perhaps Adam and Eve did not have wisdom since that comes with life experience. They, on the other hand, were living a sheltered life of bliss in the Garden of Eden. They had no need for work, money, or even clothes; in short, they had no worries. It was only after they had to leave Paradise that they became acquainted with pain and suffering, work, and the harshness of the world. But now they could also acquire wisdom in developing the social and cognitive skills necessary to adapt to their new world. And, I believe, their love for one another as well as for G-d also took on a deeper meaning. Judaism says that those who have sinned (all of us) have the unique opportunity to draw closer to G-d than we would have had we not sinned.
You cannot have wisdom without love .