Witnesses tell FBI that George Zimmerman is no racist

[estesbob]

Zimmerman claimed his head was banged against the concrete by Trayvon.
There are indeed lacerations on the back of his head to support this.

Zimmerman claimed Trayvon hit him in the face.
Medical evidence as well as the witness of the responding officer and medical personel indicate that his nose was broken.

Zimmerman claimed that Trayvon was on top of him hitting him.
The eye witness saw the same. The blood stains from Trayvon on Zimmerman also support this positioning.

Zimmerman claimed that he was the one screaming for help.
The eye witness says the same.

There is a great deal of evidence to support what Zimmerman says happened.
Thus far, every alternative explanation I have been provided does one of two things.
Either the alternative ignores evidence that is in conflict with it, or the alternative assumes things that evidence does not provide.

It is true that it was , to a large part, Zimmermans actions that caused him to end up on the ground having his head beat in. However once this starts to occur he has every right to defend himself using lethal force. And it should also be noted that NONE of his action prior to being beaten were illegal.

 

[mtbender]

I am not the one who first made that assumption. See posts #340 & #352.

Seriously? You think the phone logs of both the shooter and the victim in a murder case (and other cases) aren’t a priority? And that it lends litte to the case? Are the 911 recordings also irrelevent? Don’t they more or less bring to view Zimmerman’s phone logs?

I mean, it should be standard procedure to process all items in a crime scene.(!) And I believe that’s what’s done in any solid investigation.

My question is what has I added in the way of facts for this case?

I am not a cop there so I can’t speake to their standard practice - but can you explain why the assumption is that it wasn’t done? Is there anything to support that claim or are we just grasping for controversy?

 

[seekerz]

I know the eyewitness did not feel that way because they did come forward.

Both ear- and eye-witnesses came forward. Neither you or I have any idea how they felt before doing so.

 

[seekerz]

My question is what has I added in the way of facts for this case?

I am not a cop there so I can’t speake to their standard practice - but can you explain why the assumption is that it wasn’t done? Is there anything to support that claim or are we just grasping for controversy?

The grasping goes this way: according to some previous posters, the girlfriend’s credibility is in question because of the time delay before she spoke to police. My stance is that if the time delay is a credibility issue, then we might well question that of the police since the delay involved two parties - not simply the girl.

Who had the greater responsibility to facilitate a speedy interview, the teen or the investigating officers?

 

[kelvinf]

My question is what has I added in the way of facts for this case?

I am not a cop there so I can’t speake to their standard practice - but can you explain why the assumption is that it wasn’t done? Is there anything to support that claim or are we just grasping for controversy?

I don’t know whether the police processed Martin’s phone or not. I believe that should be one of the things to do in such cases. If they did, then it’s pretty normal. If they didn’t, then it’s weird.

Again, I was merely building on vz71’s post.

 

[maryjk]

The grasping goes this way: according to some previous posters, the girlfriend’s credibility is in question because of the time delay before she spoke to police. My stance is that if the time delay is a credibility issue, then we might well question that of the police since the delay involved two parties - not simply the girl.

Who had the greater responsibility to facilitate a speedy interview, the teen or the investigating officers?

That would have been me. I question the credibility of someone that waits to come forward. I don’t know how long she waited, but I do know that a full month later, the police were still waiting for her to come in and make a statement.

Now I am sure they could have stated that she was a material witness and arrested her, brought her in and questioned her. But other than that, you can’t force someone to come in.

 

[kelvinf]

It is true that it was , to a large part, Zimmermans actions that caused him to end up on the ground having his head beat in. However once this starts to occur he has every right to defend himself using lethal force. And it should also be noted that NONE of his action prior to being beaten were illegal.

If the prosecutor can show that Zimmerman was the aggressor, that is, it’s because of his actions that led to Martin’s death, then he would be in trouble.

Lo, we learn in the driving school that, it’s not recommended to be driving and changing the radio for instance or to even drive when one is miffed. However, there is no law for such and hence not illegal.

Albeit, if you knock someone down, even if the person was let’s say crossing the street illegally, and it can be proven that you were distracted while driving or in a bad mood, you would still be in trouble. (Yeah, like manslaughter…)

Indiscretion that leads to the loss of life, that could clearly be avoided, cannot go without consequences.

 

[vz71]

Do we know they didn’t?

No, we do not.

Anything having to do with the phone call beyond that it was there is simply idle speculation.

I makes for a good emotional argument though.

 

[vz71]

I am not the one who first made that assumption. See posts #340 & #352.

Nor am I.

You should read further back in the thread.

 

[vz71]

Both ear- and eye-witnesses came forward. Neither you or I have any idea how they felt before doing so.

We can be certain that anyone that comes forward feels the need to.

Else they would not come forward.

 

[vz71]

I don’t know whether the police processed Martin’s phone or not.

It appears in earlier posts that the assumption is made that the phone was not processed.

Since you do not know one way or the other, then it is idle speculation.
And that is what has caused so much problem for this case.

 

[vz71]

If the prosecutor can show that Zimmerman was the aggressor, that is, it’s because of his actions that led to Martin’s death, then he would be in trouble.

Lo, we learn in the driving school that, it’s not recommended to be driving and changing the radio for instance or to even drive when one is miffed. However, there is no law for such and hence not illegal.

Albeit, if you knock someone down, even if the person was let’s say crossing the street illegally, and it can be proven that you were distracted while driving or in a bad mood, you would still be in trouble. (Yeah, like manslaughter…)

Indiscretion that leads to the loss of life, that could clearly be avoided, cannot go without consequences.

The crime you are describing is not what the special prosecuter has decided to prosecute.

 

[kelvinf]

The crime you are describing is not what the special prosecuter has decided to prosecute.

The example I gave was generally about illegality and legality. Saying that Zimmerman did nothing “illegal” by not adhering to the dispatcher and following Trayvon does not free him from the murder charges. It was this disobedience and his indiscretion that led to all this.

 

[Dawnia]

If the prosecutor can show that Zimmerman was the aggressor, that is, it’s because of his actions that led to Martin’s death, then he would be in trouble.

Lo, we learn in the driving school that, it’s not recommended to be driving and changing the radio for instance or to even drive when one is miffed. However, there is no law for such and hence not illegal.

Albeit, if you knock someone down, even if the person was let’s say crossing the street illegally, and it can be proven that you were distracted while driving or in a bad mood, you would still be in trouble. (Yeah, like manslaughter…)

Indiscretion that leads to the loss of life, that could clearly be avoided, cannot go without consequences.

The problem is there is no proof, one way or the other of who the aggressor was. If it was that cut and dried, there would be no controversy.

In this case, the prosecutor has far more to prove than just Zimmerman being an aggressor. She has to prove that Zimmerman had intent to kill and wasn’t just negligent. That is not an easy hurdle to jump. Especially considering Zimmerman called the police and was expecting their arrival, an eyewitness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, the injuries sustained by Zimmerman, and the lack of injuries to Martin other than the gun shot wound and injury to his hand. Those all leave room for reasonable doubt.

 

[vz71]

The example I gave was generally about illegality and legality. Saying that Zimmerman did nothing “illegal” by not adhering to the dispatcher and following Trayvon does not free him from the murder charges. It was this disobedience and his indiscretion that led to all this.

That is an oversimplification.

 

[vz71]

Especially considering Zimmerman called the police and was expecting their arrival, an eyewitness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, the injuries sustained by Zimmerman, and the lack of injuries to Martin other than the gun shot wound and injury to his hand. Those all leave room for reasonable doubt.

Those injuries put the case in a precarious position.

The injury to the hand was damage to his knuckles, and is consistant with hitting someone or something with a closed fist.

 

[rlg94086]

The problem is there is no proof, one way or the other of who the aggressor was. If it was that cut and dried, there would be no controversy.

In this case, the prosecutor has far more to prove than just Zimmerman being an aggressor. She has to prove that Zimmerman had intent to kill and wasn’t just negligent. That is not an easy hurdle to jump. Especially considering Zimmerman called the police and was expecting their arrival, an eyewitness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, the injuries sustained by Zimmerman, and the lack of injuries to Martin other than the gun shot wound and injury to his hand. Those all leave room for reasonable doubt.

Exactly. The people convinced that Zimmerman is guilty of murder haven’t thought this through.

 

[kelvinf]

The problem is there is no proof, one way or the other of who the aggressor was. If it was that cut and dried, there would be no controversy.

In this case, the prosecutor has far more to prove than just Zimmerman being an aggressor. She has to prove that Zimmerman had intent to kill and wasn’t just negligent. That is not an easy hurdle to jump. Especially considering Zimmerman called the police and was expecting their arrival, an eyewitness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, the injuries sustained by Zimmerman, and the lack of injuries to Martin other than the gun shot wound and injury to his hand. Those all leave room for reasonable doubt.

Exactly. The people convinced that Zimmerman is guilty of murder haven’t thought this through.

Really? When the prosecutor charged Zimmerman with second degree murder, she herself reiterated that: “Remember, the prosecutor’s burden is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.”

Prosecutor Corey Announce Charges Against Zimmerman 06:34 - 06:47. And I have admitted before that she has a tough job to do. They did a thorough investigation and wouldn’t have charged Zimmerman with 2nd degree murder if they can’t prove it. Are we aware of all the evidence they have?

Again, as to who as on top, different witnesses say different things.

We know that the prosecutor has about 78 witnesses in this case in general. We just have to wait and see.

For me, I question why Zimmerman didn’t put up any physical resistance, if his version is true. If Trayvon mainly sustained just the gun shot wound, and if Zimmerman was the one crying for help, I seriously question why he wasn’t fighting back. Do you seriously think that Trayvon could completely overpower Zimmerman?

Trayvon was 5 feet, 11 inches tall and weighed 158 pounds while Zimmerman is 5’8" and weights 185 pounds or 5’7" and weights 200 pounds (different sources). I don’t understand Imperial units but I can logically conclude that Trayvon was somewhat taller than Zimmerman while weighs more than Trayvon.

So Trayvon did all these things: punched Zimmerman on the face, grounded Zimmerman, repeatedly bashed Zimmerman’s head against the pavement… while all Zimmerman did was to cry out for help before finally shooting Trayvon?

The first caller called at 7:16:11. The gun shot was heard at 7:16:55 (i.e. 44 secs into the call). So the yelling for help lasted for at least 44 secs. ‘At least’ because we don’t know how long the caller took to initiate the call and exactly when the confrontation started. The second caller said she called immediately after hearing the gun shot. She called at 7:17:08; meaning she took 13 secs to make the call or the call took 13 secs to go through (whatever). Let’s assume that this 13 secs also applies to the first caller meaning that the beating (still based on Z’s version) lasted for at least 57 secs. That’s close to a minute (and we still don’t know when it started but we are certain of the mininum 44 secs and maximum 1 min 55 secs duration) and all Zimmerman could do was to shoot Travyon? Since that was the only injury he sustained as a result of Zimmerman’s action.

Taking all these into consideration, it’s just impossible for me to believe that Trayvon was able to beat Zimmerman for at least 44 secs up to 1 min 55 secs while the only thing Zimmerman could do was to yell before finally shooting Trayvon.

On the contrary, what I see is a justifiable charge with 2nd degree murder and he bears the burden of proof if he offers affirmative defense. And I don’t see how one can buy it.

–
PS: Zimmerman hung up at 7:15. That’s how I calculated the 1 min 55 secs maximum duration.

But he couldn’t overpower Travyon in getting the gun.

 

[Holly3278]

I hope it is true that he is not a racist. I believe that it is true that he is not a racist.

 

[kelvinf]

Apparently, there are other interesting things I -](we )/-] missed.

I am just going to list some of them:

Apparently, Zimmerman admitted to being on top of Trayvon (at some point):

During the videotaped voice stress test, he seemed to suggest that he wasn’t sure he had hit Martin when he fired his gun, saying that he “thought that he heard the shot and he was giving up” and that he pushed Martin off of him.

"Either way, I ended up on top of him, straddling him," he said, but he claimed he “felt like (Martin) was hitting me with something in his hands” so he grabbed the youth’s hands to restrain him. Martin was saying something like “ah, ah,” and cursing, Zimmerman said, and he told him, “Stop. Don’t move.”

Just too weird. Or do you understand that piece? You shot someone at point-blank but ain’t sure you shot him. (And he said somewhere that he aimed the gun at him.[1]) Then you straddle him…(?)

And the investigator expresses doubt that Zimmerman, who had lived in the neighborhood for three years and described himself as head of the neighborhood watch, did not know the names of the three streets in the subdivision.

“To be honest with you, I have a bad memory anyway,” Zimmerman said, adding that he has attention-deficit (hyperactivity) disorder and takes medication for it.
articles.cnn.com/2012-06-21/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_police-interview-shooting-audio-interviews/3?_s=PM:JUSTICE

If he has a bad memory, what are the other things he can’t get straight?

“and I grabbed my gun and aimed it at him and fired one shot. He kind of sat back and said, ‘You got me, you got it,’ or something like that. And I thought he was saying that he heard the shot and that he was giving up. So I pushed him off me. I don’t remember if I pushed him off me…”
wltz.com/story/18849587/new-zimmerman-material-released

Seems like he initially told investigators he wasn’t following Martin and that** he went out of his car to get an address**…

He was in fear although he got out to follow Trayvon…

clickorlando.com/news/New-evidence-video-released-in-George-Zimmerman-case/-/1637132/15187548/-/np1nkc/-/index.html?treets=orlpn&tml=orlpn_break&ts=T&tmi=orlpn_break_1_06350106212012

He said Martin covered his nose with one hand and he could barely breath while Martin used the other hand to cover his mouth. But interestingly, he was still able to cry out loud for help…

miamiherald.com/2012/06/21/v-fullstory/2860569/zimmerman-told-police-trayvon.html

“When I slid, my jacket and my shirt came up. …** I felt his hand go down my side**, and I thought he was going for my firearm, so I grabbed it immediately, and as he banged my head again, I just pulled out my firearm and shot him.”

articles.cnn.com/2012-06-21/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_police-interview-shooting-audio-interviews?_s=PM:JUSTICE

Building on this video[1], apparently, Trayvon took one hand off his mouth and went for the gun with that hand. So how was Trayvon able to bang his head again with a single hand (that was supposedly still on his nose)?

He clearly has questions to answer and that’s why he has rightly been charged with 2nd degree murder and I believe we will know more during the trial.