Wives, obey your husbands - please explain

[yellowbicycle]

Please explain this passage to me.
I guess what I don’t understand is how this would apply in a real life situation.
I also don’t understand the man as head of household. Again, I am just having trouble connecting this verse to a real-life situation.
Both of these passages would seem to suggest that decision making rests with the man of the house because of his nature as a man. Is that right? And if so, what if he is uniquely un-qualified to make such decisions?
As with so much, I know I am just missing some connection here, and any assistance in explaining this to me, especially so that I would better be able to defend the catholic faith to others, would be greatly appreciated.
In charity,
yellow

 

[kage_ar]

Wnen you read the ENTIRE passage (this is just a snip from Eph 5 and 6), the passage makes so much sense. the passage talks about marriage and children and even the relationship beteween servants and masters.

If your husband loves you as Christ loves the Church, what on earth would he ask of you that you would not want to do with joy?

21 Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22* Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31* “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; 33 however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2* “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3* “that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth.” 4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

 

[kage_ar]

As you can see, this is not about deciding what color to paint the kitchen or where to go for vacation, this speaks of a much deeper difference and level of authority.

 

[yellowbicycle]

If your husband loves you as Christ loves the Church, what on earth would he ask of you that you would not want to do with joy?

Yes, I suppose my question would have made more sense if I had posted it with the entire passage. Man, you CAF people are quick with getting the passages up!
And of course the answer to your question is: nothing. There is nothing that I wouldn’t do for my husband, who loves me as Christ loves the church.
So, then, what is there to obey?
I guess, I’m trying to understand what obedience here really means. What would obedience to my loving husband LOOK like? What would I be doing to obey him that I wouldn’t be doing simply out of love anyway?

 

[yellowbicycle]

I guess it’s that the word ‘obey’ here suggests to me a suppression of one’s will to that of another’s. Would my understanding of this term here be correct?
But wouldn’t my will be for a happy home, including a happy husband and children, naturally? Isn’t that what everyone would want, given that the alternative would be an UN-happy husband and UN-happy children? What if I feel that my husband’s wishes wouldn’t lead to a happy home and happy children, even if his heart is in the right place?
Thanks again.
If anyone has any book recommendations for me, I would also appreciate that, but if you could post a cliff notes version, that would also be appreciated.
Otherwise, I might never get to it.
Thanks in advance for taking the time to respond!

 

[kage_ar]

Think of your relationship to the Church. At any time, was there a teaching that you did not fully understand but you were still obedient?

Here is my example, going to Mass. I love Mass, I love Jesus, but - some Sundays I am so tired and have not had a day to rest in 2 weeks and I just want to stay HOME. It does not mean I do not love Jesus, but, I may not be miss merry sunshine bouncing into Mass that day - I go out of obedience.

Books? Fulton Sheen “Three To Get Married”

 

[CatholicSamurai]

This is precisely why I study John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. All I’m trying to say is that we have forgotten the why’s and therefore not know the how. Not that it’s our fault to begin with.

Theologically put… a man’s duty is to die for his wife. The wife’s duty is to support him in dying for her. That is what the passage means. The word ‘submit’ is a bad translation. But if we unlock the word… it goes like this: (‘sub’ = under) + mission. Be under the mission of your husband. What’s his mission? To be like Christ for you, who died.

Whenever you have a passage like this, you need to take it in full context. Ok, so how does this apply in real life?

The husband (man), has to do everything in his power to provide and be the head of the family, etc, etc. Hence, the dying part. But this is a difficult task. It is even more difficult when the wife (woman) demeans us or treats us as if we were useless or when we are undermined or when we are called stupid. This depowers us men. We need to know that we measure up; we will rise up to the challenge if we are supported. If we are told we don’t measure up then we won’t be willing to rise to the challenge. In exchange, the man must love his wife and be willing to sacrifice. It’s a reciprocal thing… kinda mirrors God who is an eternal exchange of love.

This may not sound practical but if you give time to give it deep thought… I’m sure it will make sense.

Books to read: any titles written by Christopher West should do.

 

[theistgal]

Hmm … well, our priest told me that promising “marital obedience” in our marriage ceremony (coming up on 2 years this April 21st ) was optional, and I opted out.

So far, my complete failure to obey my husband hasn’t caused any problems. Yet!!!

 

[1ke]

Ephesians 5 says children are to *obey *their parents. It does not say wives are to *obey *their husbands. So, you are starting out from the wrong place. You are trying to understand how “obeying” fits into your marital relationship, but Scripture does not say this.

The passage says wives are to be subordinate to their husbands as the Church is to Christ. Christ is the head of the Church, and the husband is the head of the family.

 

[kage_ar]

Hmm … well, our priest told me that promising “marital obedience” in our marriage ceremony (coming up on 2 years this April 21st ) was optional, and I opted out.

So far, my complete failure to obey my husband hasn’t caused any problems. Yet!!!

The vow to “obey” is not part of a Catholic wedding, it is not even optional. It is only found in some Protestant wedding services.

The duty to obey according to Ephesians is part of Christianity.

 

[GraceDK]

Theologically put… a man’s duty is to die for his wife. The wife’s duty is to support him in dying for her. That is what the passage means. .

Cool… but tell me, isnt this ideal… I mean… sure you all may sit here and say your husband loves you like Christ. But in practical reality men are often selfish and immature, childish, unwise and simply odd… so there it is that the difficulty arises.
How to be obedient to a man who is not like Christ?

 

[1ke]

Cool… but tell me, isnt this ideal… I mean… sure you all may sit here and say your husband loves you like Christ. But in practical reality men are often selfish and immature, childish, unwise and simply odd… so there it is that the difficulty arises.
How to be obedient to a man who is not like Christ?

This is why the discernment process in marriage is so important. If you select a man based on his Christlike qualities, you can be subordinate to him easily. And, again, the Scriptures do not say “obey.” Where is everyone getting that?

If you choose unwisely, then you will need to work harder to help your husband be Christlike.

 

[1ke]

Hmm … well, our priest told me that promising “marital obedience” in our marriage ceremony (coming up on 2 years this April 21st ) was optional, and I opted out.

So far, my complete failure to obey my husband hasn’t caused any problems. Yet!!!

Your priest is smokin’ something if he thinks “obey” is part of the vows that Catholics exchange. It is not now, nor has it ever been.

 

[AHapka]

But wouldn’t my will be for a happy home, including a happy husband and children, naturally? Isn’t that what everyone would want, given that the alternative would be an UN-happy husband and UN-happy children? What if I feel that my husband’s wishes wouldn’t lead to a happy home and happy children, even if his heart is in the right place?

I think happiness is a poor goal overall. It’s good, don’t get me wrong, but it shouldn’t be the primary goal of our families. I would love it if they always were, but it’s unrealistic.

I don’t have happy children when I discipline them. But it needs to be done. A husband’s decision to go to Mass when nobody else wants to go might make the rest of the family unhappy, but it is showing proper spiritual leadership. An unhappy child alone in his room is better then a happy child hanging out with the wrong people.

Our primary goal as husbands should be to serve our family in leading them to Jesus. Much as the Pope serves all Catholics in his ministry of leading us to Jesus. I’m sure there are precepts of the Church that some of us aren’t happy about sometimes. But we submit to them because we realize that they our put in place for our good.

That being said, however, the submitting ends at sin. It is possible that a husband or religious superior might ask you to do something that is a sin. Then there is no need to submit because God is superior.

 

[kage_ar]

Cool… but tell me, isnt this ideal… I mean… sure you all may sit here and say your husband loves you like Christ. But in practical reality men are often selfish and immature, childish, unwise and simply odd… so there it is that the difficulty arises.
How to be obedient to a man who is not like Christ?

That is why one should only date men of integrity and strong Christian moral fiber.

 

[ac_claire]

I guess it’s that the word ‘obey’ here suggests to me a suppression of one’s will to that of another’s. Would my understanding of this term here be correct?
But wouldn’t my will be for a happy home, including a happy husband and children, naturally? Isn’t that what everyone would want, given that the alternative would be an UN-happy husband and UN-happy children? What if I feel that my husband’s wishes wouldn’t lead to a happy home and happy children, even if his heart is in the right place?

Hey yellowbicycle,

I’d say your last question there is an example of submitting. In this theoretical situation, you would perhaps give your husband the benefit of the doubt, even though as you say you may really feel that you know better. If you give in and go with his wishes, you honor him by showing you respect him and trust his leadership. These are things that a man needs to know. It’s a great system actually…the more he knows that you trust him, the more he will cherish you and want to rise up to be the best man he can be to be worthy of your trust.

 

[ac_claire]

This is why the discernment process in marriage is so important. If you select a man based on his Christlike qualities, you can be subordinate to him easily. And, again, the Scriptures do not say “obey.” Where is everyone getting that?

As far as I know the word “obey” was inserting into some Protestant wedding vows by King Henry VIII, for reasons which I’m sure suited his own purposes with his many wives.

However the concept of obedience isn’t that far removed from being submissive. I guess in a way it’s relative dependent upong the exact meaning you’re attatching to the terms.

Some translations do use the word “obey” instead of “submit” or “be subject to” in verses such as 1 Peter 3:1.

The D-R translation of 1 Peter 3:1-- In like manner also let wives be subject to their husbands: that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word, by the conversation of the wives.

 

[Revert07]

This passage always creates issues. Part of it is related to translations and how certain words are interpreted in today’s culture. Another explanation, in addition to the relationship between Christ and the Church as mentioned above, that I really found helpful deals with what we think marriage is. Many people today think it’s a 50/50 deal. At best. It’s not. It needs to be 100/100. The woman gives 100% of herself and the man gives 100% of himself. Both work for the salvation of the other. It’s a completely different mindset than the culture teaches us. It takes some work but that is why, as has been pointed out, the discernment process is so important.

Having been on both sides, I can say for us the 100/100 (or as close as we can get ) works much better. We’ve just celebrated our 23rd anniversary. For most of that time, we subscribed to the 50/50 theory. We weren’t happy for much of it (I’m not going to do what he/she says just because he/she wants me to. Who do they think they are - my boss? My Mother/Father? My master?! … {stomp feet} ). We very nearly ended the whole thing several times. Now it’s different. We’re both happy. Visibly so - and I don’t mean we’re walking around mooning over each other. It’s just clear we’re together. We’re not struggling to see who gets their way all the time. Not that there aren’t any problems that come up. But if we stop and think about what we’re supposed to be doing instead of just reacting, things are much easier to deal with and they get resolved quicker.

 

[rayne89]

This is from the papal encyclical titled “Casti Connubii” (in english “On Chistian Marriage”)

1. This conjugal faith, however, which is most aptly called by St. Augustine the “faith of chastity” blooms more freely, more beautifully and more nobly, when it is rooted in that more excellent soil, the love of husband and wife which pervades all the duties of married life and holds pride of place in Christian marriage. For matrimonial faith demands that husband and wife be joined in an especially holy and pure love, not as adulterers love each other, but as Christ loved the Church. This precept the Apostle laid down when he said: “Husbands, love your wives as Christ also loved the Church,”[24] that Church which of a truth He embraced with a boundless love not for the sake of His own advantage, but seeking only the good of His Spouse.[25] The love, then, of which We are speaking is not that based on the passing lust of the moment nor does it consist in pleasing words only, but in the deep attachment of the heart which is expressed in action, since love is proved by deeds.[26] This outward expression of love in the home demands not only mutual help but must go further; must have as its primary purpose that man and wife help each other day by day in forming and perfecting themselves in the interior life, so that through their partnership in life they may advance ever more and more in virtue, and above all that they may grow in true love toward God and their neighbor, on which indeed “dependeth the whole Law and the Prophets.”[27] For all men of every condition, in whatever honorable walk of life they may be, can and ought to imitate that most perfect example of holiness placed before man by God, namely Christ Our Lord, and by God’s grace to arrive at the summit of perfection, as is proved by the example set us of many saints.
2. This mutual molding of husband and wife, this determined effort to perfect each other, can in a very real sense, as the Roman Catechism teaches, be said to be the chief reason and purpose of matrimony, provided matrimony be looked at not in the restricted sense as instituted for the proper conception and education of the child, but more widely as the blending of life as a whole and the mutual interchange and sharing thereof.
3. By this same love it is necessary that all the other rights and duties of the marriage state be regulated as the words of the Apostle: “Let the husband render the debt to the wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband,”[28] express not only a law of justice but of charity.
4. Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church.”[29]
5. This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs. But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin. For if the man is the head, the woman is the heart, and as he occupies the chief place in ruling, so she may and ought to claim for herself the chief place in love.
6. Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time. In fact, if the husband neglect his duty, it falls to the wife to take his place in directing the family. But the structure of the family and its fundamental law, established and confirmed by God, must always and everywhere be maintained intact .

 

[whatevergirl]

I personally view ‘submission,’ to mean to fully trust and therefore submit to my husband. It doesn’t mean for a man to abuse his authority as head of the household, or cause a woman to feel ‘under his thumb’ with no views and thoughts of her own. What it does mean, however, is that I trust my husband’s view, and together, our views are one with each other. We are ‘one flesh,’ and thus what he decides for the family…SHOULD be fine with me. But, we are partners in every sense of the word…not, I have no say in anything, and I defer to whatever my husband thinks about a situation. However, when he for example, hands down a suitable punishment for our kids when they haven’t been doing their chores, etc…I don’t butt in. (I used to and it caused a lot of strife) My husband is extremely easy going, and leaves finances and so forth up to me…but if he says, you know honey, I don’t think we should go to such and such for vacation this year, I might question, but we don’t fight about it. I trust my husband’s judgement.

In submitting to each other on different levels, we grow closer together. It’s when a couple starts competing for each other’s roles and positions within the family, is when marriages can have trouble. I used to be that way, and through prayer, supplication, and…submission…I now see that my role as my husband’s wife is to be one with him, and he always has our family’s best interests at heart. If he were abusive, into drugs, a bad father, etc…I wouldn’t submit myself to such a person.

I think one must use common sense in their marriage.