Wives, obey your husbands - please explain

[buffalo]

THE AUTHORITY OF THE HUSBAND ACCORDING TO THE MAGISTERIUM

“WIVES, BE SUBJECT TO YOUR HUSBANDS”:

INTRODUCTION

The words, “Wives, be subject to your husbands,” jar many modern ears. Even though this exhortation comes from an inspired text in Sacred Scripture (Ephesians 5:22), many people–including practicing Catholics–are troubled by what appears to be a relic of Marriage customs “rightly” abandoned by contemporary culture. Those who resist any notion of hierarchy or patriarchy in the social order vigorously reject St. Paul’s concept of Marriage as an attack on the dignity of women. Even those Christians not hostile to Paul’s teaching may believe that given the state of modern society, there is little to be gained by investigating–let alone applying–Paul’s prescriptions concerning the relationship of the spouses. However, one Catholic scholar, Stephen Clark, suggests that the controversy or unease over the family order described in Ephesians 5:21-33 is a relatively recent phenomenon. Regarding the question of a “head of the family” he writes, “Few areas in early Christian teaching are as uniform and fewer still were held with the same consistency as long as this one, since the first Christian voices advocating a different approach were raised only in about the nineteenth century.” Clark continues, “There are few instances where it is clearer that a change in the approach of Christians is an abandonment of Christian tradition, and not only of tradition, but of every source of authoritative teaching that can lay claim on a Christian.”

more…

 

[theistgal]

The vow to “obey” is not part of a Catholic wedding, it is not even optional. It is only found in some Protestant wedding services.

And in the official service book (with imprimatur and everything) at our Byzantine Catholic church.

 

[kage_ar]

And in the official service book (with imprimatur and everything) at our Byzantine Catholic church.

I learned something!

 

[theistgal]

I learned something!

Good for you for saying so! A rarity at any Internet forum!

 

[kage_ar]

Good for you for saying so! A rarity at any Internet forum!

I even looked it up (nerd here) Maybe the confusion is some people think that old Protestant “Love, Honor and Obey” is somehow Catholic.

The words “matrimonial obedience” are lovely.

THE MARRIAGE VOWS
The groom and bride join their right hands upon the Book of Gospels. The priest covers their hands with his stole and right hand and then says to the GROOM:
Repeat after me:
I, N., take you, N., to be my wife, and I promise to love you, to respect you, to be always faithful to you, and never to forsake you until death do us part. So help me God, one in the Holy Trinity, and all the Saints.
Then the priest says to the BRIDE:
Repeat after me:
I, N., take you, N., to be my husband, and I promise to love you, to respect you, to give you matrimonial obedience, to be always faithful to you, and never to forsake you until death do us part. So help me God, one in the Holy Trinity, and all the Saints.

 

[yellowbicycle]

I was going to ask who should be head of household when the man is not living up to his role, but I think the document rayne posted addressed that very nicely
And, also, I didn’t know that the catholic wedding vows didn’t say obey. And they never have apparently? I thought they used to?
Have the words to marriage vows remained unchanged through the centuries?
This is alot to chew on.
Please, keep the comments coming, as I have found the posts so far to be very helpful.

 

[ac_claire]

I was going to ask who should be head of household when the man is not living up to his role, but I think the document rayne posted addressed that very nicely
And, also, I didn’t know that the catholic wedding vows didn’t say obey. And they never have apparently? I thought they used to?
Have the words to marriage vows remained unchanged through the centuries?
This is alot to chew on.
Please, keep the comments coming, as I have found the posts so far to be very helpful.

As far as I know, “obey” was added to wedding vows around the time of the Reformation and it’s prevalence in subsequent history all flows from that. However, it should be noted that there is not one set of standard Catholic wedding vows. There have been and are still many different approved vows used within the various rites over the centuries, so I can’t say with authority that “obey” was never used.

But…the definitions of obey, submit and be subject to are so similar in the context of husband/wife relations that I don’t really think the word “obey” should be an issue. The concept is basically the same no matter how it’s phrased.

 

[ac_claire]

Please explain this passage to me.
I guess what I don’t understand is how this would apply in a real life situation.
I also don’t understand the man as head of household. Again, I am just having trouble connecting this verse to a real-life situation.

Going back to your OP…is there any specific situation where you think you might want to apply these principles but don’t quite know how? If we can narrow the scope and hone in on one or two specific things to use as examples, we might get some more specific and useful replies.

 

[CatholicSamurai]

Cool… but tell me, isnt this ideal… I mean… sure you all may sit here and say your husband loves you like Christ. But in practical reality men are often selfish and immature, childish, unwise and simply odd… so there it is that the difficulty arises.
How to be obedient to a man who is not like Christ?

And I will admit that this is the very very sad part. Men need to rise up to the challenge but we have been bombarded with “propaganda” telling us we don’t measure up, that we’re useless and stupid. Plus we live in a Peter Pan society where people refuse to grow up. No offense to you women but we also got Femenized too much. And why did this happen in the first place? Because men are pigs. Some of this is not our fault but if we knew why we were male in the first place, we’d know how to be male as God wanted us to be.

As a male… I must apologize. We, men, need to be more mature, seriously. Original sin wasn’t the fault of Eve… it was Adam’s fault for not doing anything in the first place. Mind you, this is not Oprah stuff… it’s what the Church has been teaching for centuries… we just turned a deaf ear.

I can’t really tell you how… giving practical advise is not my strong suit… yet. I’ve only been married for 2 years. I was fortunate to learn this 2 years before I got married. It’s going to be tough to change how a person sees things. I can tell you it’s the opposite for me… my wife has difficulty understanding this from me. She’s still trapped in the “body-bad, spirit-good” mentality. I just nudge her an inch at a time and pray unceasingly.

 

[BiologyBrain]

Realistically & practically speaking we are all sinners & all make mistakes. However, if our ideals are set high we will strive harder to attain them. If I tell my husband that I will support him in his endeavors (as long as they aren’t against morality - my husband’s not baptized in ANY religion), I’m actualy implying to him that he has responsibility not only for himself (which may or may not be moral), but also to me (someone he knows morality is very important to). It makes him rethink some of his decisions. It gives him a basis for trying harder to be like Christ for me (and our son). He’s not perfect, nor am I, but he does try.

You can also look at it as giving the man enough rope to hang himself, but not doing it for him. If the husband isn’t morally on solid ground he may make mistakes, but ultimately that will lead to marital discord. Once things hit ‘rock bottom’ there’s no place to go but up. If wives truly submit to their husbands, not only are they encouraging him to set better goals, they are practicing humility. If you’re constantly telling your husband to do this & that & better, etc you’re nagging & you’re not allowing him to mature as a man or spiritually. Some (like my husband) will actually rebel worse if you are constantly telling them how to do things.

That all being said, I have a hard time w/ that verse b/c my husband is not Catholic (or religious). I can’t realistically expect him to treat me like Christ treats his Bride the Church if he doesn’t know Christ or the Church. However, he has enough foundation through our marriage preparation, common sense, and self-awareness that he does not treat me poorly. However, on matters of faith & morals he usually submits to me - both in our marriage & as parents to our son. His submission to me on issues that I’m more familiar with is actually a sign that I can submit to him and allow him to make some of the faith/moral decisions. Basically, his decision is to follow my recommendation, so I have no problem submitting to his decision. It may sound manipulative written out this way, but it works practically speaking (for us).

 

[rayne89]

Cool… but tell me, isnt this ideal… I mean… sure you all may sit here and say your husband loves you like Christ. But in practical reality men are often selfish and immature, childish, unwise and simply odd… so there it is that the difficulty arises.
How to be obedient to a man who is not like Christ?

You build him up, you make him feel he is respected (by respecting him), you put your faith and trust in him. You don’t treat him like a child but a man. They will live up to what we believe they can be. If question, and doubt, make fun of, act like his mom, point out all his mistakes, do an “I told your so” it will damage his ability to be the man you want him to be.

 

[GraceDK]

And I will admit that this is the very very sad part. Men need to rise up to the challenge but we have been bombarded with “propaganda” telling us we don’t measure up, that we’re useless and stupid. Plus we live in a Peter Pan society where people refuse to grow up. No offense to you women but we also got Femenized too much. And why did this happen in the first place? Because men are pigs. Some of this is not our fault but if we knew why we were male in the first place, we’d know how to be male as God wanted us to be.

As a male… I must apologize. We, men, need to be more mature, seriously. Original sin wasn’t the fault of Eve… it was Adam’s fault for not doing anything in the first place. Mind you, this is not Oprah stuff… it’s what the Church has been teaching for centuries… we just turned a deaf ear.

I can’t really tell you how… giving practical advise is not my strong suit… yet. I’ve only been married for 2 years. I was fortunate to learn this 2 years before I got married. It’s going to be tough to change how a person sees things. I can tell you it’s the opposite for me… my wife has difficulty understanding this from me. She’s still trapped in the “body-bad, spirit-good” mentality. I just nudge her an inch at a time and pray unceasingly.

Hey brother.

I dont really agree with you all the way. I am ever so tired of Catholics placing either the blame on the men or on the women and talking about roles instead of persons. Alright, we all individually have a responsibility to treat people the way we want to be treated. The people in my life have not made me who I am. I have chosen my way. When some young Catholic men say like a mantra. “It was mainly Adams fault” they think they will have applause… but what they are in reality saying is that the woman is like a kid who doesn’t have the brain and the conscience the same as a man, so that she is equally responsible.

Soeciety didn’t make me a woman. I am a woman. I have to think for my self… so too with men… men cant sit back infront of a movie with a bear and say: the woman made me passive and my female caretakers in kindergarden taught me to be woman-like… Thats just a bad excuse.
My own grandparents wouldn’t let me play outside on a snowy day and play cowboy and clim trees… but I did anyway.

A man is responsible for his actions, and he has to choose the responsibilty and thus become a the man he is supposed to be. That is the same for women. No one forces us… its like the same when people say: there are so many muslims, surely we cant be expected to evangelise them. Yes we can.
Or with men blaming their sins on a womans cleavage.

Are there challenges, yes. But let us not patronize any gender in order to make a point. Thats one thing I like about secular humanism. Individuals are treated like personalities, not like gender roles

Thats just my perspective.
Also. If a woman submits her intellect and free choice to a mans idiotic ideas and pride just because he is her spouse then she is not a hero but someone who is living a half life…

 

[GraceDK]

You build him up, you make him feel he is respected (by respecting him), you put your faith and trust in him. You don’t treat him like a child but a man. They will live up to what we believe they can be. If question, and doubt, make fun of, act like his mom, point out all his mistakes, do an “I told your so” it will damage his ability to be the man you want him to be.

Thanks for the advice. But I would like to marry a man, not some boy that I will form into being a real man. I won’t make no body *feel *respected. I will respect him and praise him for who he is and for the good that he does.
“I told you so” is at any rate a useless comment from any individual who is above the age of ten.

 

[rayne89]

Thanks for the advice. But I would like to marry a man, not some boy that I will form into being a real man. I won’t make no body *feel *respected. I will respect him and praise him for who he is and for the good that he does.
“I told you so” is at any rate a useless comment from any individual who is above the age of ten.

I am confused you’re the one that said " in practical reality men are often selfish and immature, childish, unwise and simply odd… so there it is that the difficulty arises."
So in one sentence you say men are often selfish, immature, childish, unwise etc, and you say your would like to marry a “real man” not some boy…Would like to clarify why you asked what to do if you didn’t want an answer?

 

[GraceDK]

I am confused you’re the one that said " in practical reality men are often selfish and immature, childish, unwise and simply odd… so there it is that the difficulty arises."
So in one sentence you say men are often selfish, immature, childish, unwise etc, and you say your would like to marry a “real man” not some boy…Would like to clarify why you asked what to do if you didn’t want an answer?

You are right to be confused. Sorry… Its just a more generel problem.
Someone said to me here: because of your concern… this is why you should pick a man whom you already respect and who has high morals etc already when you court him. I agree with that.
I think that we cannot change people and we cant make a child into a man. What my question was mostly about was:
how to submit if you have - accidentally - already married a guy who is not smart, unselfish, holy etc… to submit anyway? many women find themselves in that situation… that they have married a man who in one or more areas is not the wiser one or even capable of leading…

one thing I might add is that I distinguish “spiritual leadership” as the call that Paul talks about for the man. That means, this is where the unity and submission are most crucial… That means, he doenst talk about the man having the last to say about whatever, but about some spiritual practise in his house… he will be representative for the house in a way.

 

[whatevergirl]

Grace-

That is why that passage comes in two parts…not…ladies, submit to your husbands NO MATTER HOW IMMATURE, UNHOLY, ABUSIVE, etc they are. No it actually states…wives submit to your husbands, likewise, husbands love your wives as Christ so loved His Church.

I think that the second part is crucial. Doesn’t mean we are not to love our husbands when they are not living up to their potential, but we don’t have to submit to them, when they are clearly leading us and the family down a destructive path. Just my two cents.

ps–I think what kage was talking about, is more relating to women knocking their husbands down. I see if often…at the grocery store, at parties we might go to, etc…women treating their husbands like they are stupid, and can’t do anything right (ie: see Everyone Loves Raymond, one episode will depict what I’m getting at ) So, there are lots of great men out there, who live with women who knock them down, and make them feel small. That is not right, and if we want our men to know we respect them, we need to stop henpecking them, and respect them for the good men they are.

 

[whatevergirl]

I meant rayne not kage. Sorry.

 

[grandiosa]

Accidentally? What, are people getting married five minutes after they meet?

If one carefully chooses a man to marry, making sure he has the appropriate qualities of a Christlike man, then she will be able to submit to him in complete safety and assurance that her needs will be taken care of and that he will not lead her astray.

If one ignores red flags and signals that a man is not Christlike, or does not spend enough time discerning who he truly is, and then marries him anyway, she has forfeited her ability to be married to a Christlike man, and the paradigm does not apply. She robs herself of the opportunity to live in that kind of safety and assurance.

As was said earlier, this is why discernment is so important in choosing a spouse. People show you who they are… you just have to listen and believe them.

 

[rayne89]

You are right to be confused. Sorry… Its just a more generel problem.
Someone said to me here: because of your concern… this is why you should pick a man whom you already respect and who has high morals etc already when you court him. I agree with that.
I think that we cannot change people and we cant make a child into a man. What my question was mostly about was:
how to submit if you have - accidentally - already married a guy who is not smart, unselfish, holy etc… to submit anyway? many women find themselves in that situation… that they have married a man who in one or more areas is not the wiser one or even capable of leading…

one thing I might add is that I distinguish “spiritual leadership” as the call that Paul talks about for the man. That means, this is where the unity and submission are most crucial… That means, he doenst talk about the man having the last to say about whatever, but about some spiritual practise in his house… he will be representative for the house in a way.

Maybe not change people but bring out the best…or worst in them. My husband and I got married right out of high school. I made a lot of mistakes in the beginning that only knocked him down and not helped him be the man God meant for him to be.

I see this kind of behavior in grown women all the time -nagging, belittling, not trusting the man’s ability to figure things out. My own mother has perfected it to an art form. Marriage is two becoming one. It takes nothing away from me to say my husband makes me a better person -because he does. The way he treats me does impact my life, and my behavior.

Women want unconditional love, men want unconditional respect. I’m not afraid of losing any of myself by letting my husband have the last word (when he wants the last word). He’s not some maniacal tyrant out to hurt me. He’s my best friend.

Re-read over Casti Canubii, it may help you see what I’m saying.

 

[Lil_Cat]

Can anyone show me where it says that women are not to “obey” their husbands? I’m having a hard time finding an authoritative source and I need it to show someone. They seem to think that the Catholic Church says that the woman is supposed to obey their spouse with no questions asked, like a parent-child relationship.