Woman beaten publically in the name of Islam

[Booklover]

Reuben J:
Now look here GraceDK, in much of it I agree with you. I am just not comfortable about selecting a few incidents done in Islamic countries and say those are Islam though in my heart I would want to. Muslims have denied them, not just the Muslim posters here but also real life ones. Since you have Muslim friends too perhaps a frank dialogue with them will confirm this position of mine.

I don’t have many muslim friends and the ones I do have I will not talk about these things with too much because they are not versed in democratic dialog and finding out evidence. I have one friend who denied to my face that there were Jews in the Holy Land two thousand years ago and he refused to believe Jesus was a Jew. When I said: “Now wait…” he became defensive and said: “You know nothing about Christianity! And I wont talk about it with you!”
I give this example because this is one of the root problems. You take for granted that a factual discussion is possible but I doubt it. When I was 19 we had a few Muslims in my class. During religious education, when some actual news was mentioned (that children at a certian school had been threatened by Muslim kids to take off their crosses) the Muslims in my class got angry… not at the Muslim kids’ stupidity but at the teacher who passed the information… I can continue these stories if you like…
However, more importantly. You say that it’s a few incidents that took place in Muslim countries that I now have selected and used wrongly. But here I disagree with you. I would like you to realise that its tendencies that I speak of… not incidents. In the Palestinian population as well of among Muslims in my own country I saw how differently men and women were treated in terms of their personal freedom, and how rouch the culture was, full of anger, self-victimization and pride. If you have seen the clips on this thread you can see that there is a tendency in Muslim countries for the authorities to side with the male criminal against the woman victim, just like there is a lack of consequence for people who openly persecute and harm Christians and other religious minorities in these countries. There are countless of these incidents. I want you to study about religious freedom in Muslim countries. Why are Christian populations dying out in countries that were once dominantly Christian in the Middle East? Study it…

You have clarified that you are against the human rights abuses and the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. I would not have done less and so I have no problem with you now.

You dont need me to educate you. Reality will catch up with you… If you have a problem with me its because its a sad situation. I was once called a racist by a muslim friend of mine because I litterally stated I was worried about the very large immigration into my country. People that made a drawing of Muhammad with a bomb in his turban are living undercover, a fatwa is out on their head. They receive threatening letters from Muslims who live in the democratic state of Denmark and have seen the democratic way of life but who want sharia instead. Again, I want to remind you of Adolf Hitler. One man with one really bad book who got into politics and became the worst tyrant ever seen-

**I was making general statement about the origin of Communism/Fascism by way of emphasizing a point. The bottom line is Communism originated from a Christian country. I am glad you see my point because when you dig into it, hey, Marx, Hitler, et al were actually anti-Christians. This is what Muslims would tell us about the Talibans (or the Saudis, the Pakistanis or Al Qieda extremists) - a bunch of rogues, misguided Muslims even if their intention is good. **

But brother. These misfits find the bullets for their guns in their very scripture. Dont you then see the difference even? Hitler never used the New Testament nor did Marx… Because there was no justification for their acts in them. However, the former-Muslim debators like Ayaan Hirsi Ali say that the true Muslim is the one who follows the Koran and Hadith and therefore wages Jihad precisely like Muhammad did. But if a Christian turns fundamentalist he might become a monk or die like Kolbe, giving his life for someone else, because he so radically believes in the Christ.

About the Africa killings – in 1994 alone in what today we call the Rwanda genocide, between 800,000 and 1,000,000, were killed which could be as high as 20% of the total Rwanda population in an inter-tribal violence between the Catholic Hutus and the Protestants Tutsis. The killings also spread to neighboring countries. You can look this up if you want to. Again it would be unfair to generalize those Catholics are racists (or Catholism equals racism) just because they nearly annihilated the whole enemy tribe.

I have never heard that the Hutus and Tutsis had any specific religion. As far as I have always learned their battle was about ethnicity/race and politics. Not about religion. This is the same in Ireland. No one can say that Christ was a man of war or even a politician… absolutely not. And that makes all the difference. When I see people who call themselves Christians who commit evil I know they are not sanctioned by Scripture so I say they fall because of their humanity and because of the devil. But if a Muslim says: Allahu ackbar and shoots a whole dozen of school boys in a yeshiva in Jerusalem I know that this guy acts not only politically but also as a religious fanatic backed by his god…

Peace.

Excellent post once again, Grace! Incidents like the one in the OP happen too often to be dismissed as aberrations or done by “just a few” like so many like to pretend. They happen because of Islam and what it teaches.

This site lists atrocities like those on a daily basis:


Vickie

 

[Hadi]

Will you also respectfully dialog with a man who has been a Muslim and who has chosen to follow Christ as his Lord after serious study and prayer?
You cannot do that, because your Koran says to kill such a man. How will you then go into dialog? And with what purpose do you want to dialog?.

Show us a verse in the Quran that supports your claim

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben J:
Now look here GraceDK, in much of it I agree with you. I am just not comfortable about selecting a few incidents done in Islamic countries and say those are Islam though in my heart I would want to. Muslims have denied them, not just the Muslim posters here but also real life ones. Since you have Muslim friends too perhaps a frank dialogue with them will confirm this position of mine.

I don’t have many muslim friends and the ones I do have I will not talk about these things with too much because they are not versed in democratic dialog and finding out evidence. I have one friend who denied to my face that there were Jews in the Holy Land two thousand years ago and he refused to believe Jesus was a Jew. When I said: “Now wait…” he became defensive and said: “You know nothing about Christianity! And I wont talk about it with you!”
I give this example because this is one of the root problems. You take for granted that a factual discussion is possible but I doubt it. When I was 19 we had a few Muslims in my class. During religious education, when some actual news was mentioned (that children at a certian school had been threatened by Muslim kids to take off their crosses) the Muslims in my class got angry… not at the Muslim kids’ stupidity but at the teacher who passed the information… I can continue these stories if you like…
However, more importantly. You say that it’s a few incidents that took place in Muslim countries that I now have selected and used wrongly. But here I disagree with you. I would like you to realise that its tendencies that I speak of… not incidents. In the Palestinian population as well of among Muslims in my own country I saw how differently men and women were treated in terms of their personal freedom, and how rouch the culture was, full of anger, self-victimization and pride. If you have seen the clips on this thread you can see that there is a tendency in Muslim countries for the authorities to side with the male criminal against the woman victim, just like there is a lack of consequence for people who openly persecute and harm Christians and other religious minorities in these countries. There are countless of these incidents. I want you to study about religious freedom in Muslim countries. Why are Christian populations dying out in countries that were once dominantly Christian in the Middle East? Study it…

You have clarified that you are against the human rights abuses and the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. I would not have done less and so I have no problem with you now.

You dont need me to educate you. Reality will catch up with you… If you have a problem with me its because its a sad situation. I was once called a racist by a muslim friend of mine because I litterally stated I was worried about the very large immigration into my country. People that made a drawing of Muhammad with a bomb in his turban are living undercover, a fatwa is out on their head. They receive threatening letters from Muslims who live in the democratic state of Denmark and have seen the democratic way of life but who want sharia instead. Again, I want to remind you of Adolf Hitler. One man with one really bad book who got into politics and became the worst tyrant ever seen-

**I was making general statement about the origin of Communism/Fascism by way of emphasizing a point. The bottom line is Communism originated from a Christian country. I am glad you see my point because when you dig into it, hey, Marx, Hitler, et al were actually anti-Christians. This is what Muslims would tell us about the Talibans (or the Saudis, the Pakistanis or Al Qieda extremists) - a bunch of rogues, misguided Muslims even if their intention is good. **

But brother. These misfits find the bullets for their guns in their very scripture. Dont you then see the difference even? Hitler never used the New Testament nor did Marx… Because there was no justification for their acts in them. However, the former-Muslim debators like Ayaan Hirsi Ali say that the true Muslim is the one who follows the Koran and Hadith and therefore wages Jihad precisely like Muhammad did. But if a Christian turns fundamentalist he might become a monk or die like Kolbe, giving his life for someone else, because he so radically believes in the Christ.

About the Africa killings – in 1994 alone in what today we call the Rwanda genocide, between 800,000 and 1,000,000, were killed which could be as high as 20% of the total Rwanda population in an inter-tribal violence between the Catholic Hutus and the Protestants Tutsis. The killings also spread to neighboring countries. You can look this up if you want to. Again it would be unfair to generalize those Catholics are racists (or Catholism equals racism) just because they nearly annihilated the whole enemy tribe.

I have never heard that the Hutus and Tutsis had any specific religion. As far as I have always learned their battle was about ethnicity/race and politics. Not about religion. This is the same in Ireland. No one can say that Christ was a man of war or even a politician… absolutely not. And that makes all the difference. When I see people who call themselves Christians who commit evil I know they are not sanctioned by Scripture so I say they fall because of their humanity and because of the devil. But if a Muslim says: Allahu ackbar and shoots a whole dozen of school boys in a yeshiva in Jerusalem I know that this guy acts not only politically but also as a religious fanatic backed by his god…

Peace.

Thanks for your honest reply. I appreciate it.

May God bless you and keep you and gives you peace.

Reuben J

 

[GraceDK]

Show us a verse in the Quran that supports your claim

A valid question.
Are you a Muslim? Then you believe in the Koran, the Hadith and the Sunna. You believe that Muhammad was good and his actions were in accordance with the will of allah.

During Muhammad’s lifetime, and the lifetimes of the next 4 “Rightly Guided Caliphs”, a number of Muslims left the faith of Islam. The punishment for leaving Islam was death. Those that had left the faith were either killed outright, or were given a few days to turn back to Islam. If they persisted in leaving Islam they were put to death.

One of the more controversial topics for Muslims in the West is the punishment for apostasy from Islam. For some Muslims living in the Midlle East they have no problem with the concept of putting apostates to death. But to many Muslims living in the West it is an embarrassing Islamic edict and I can testify to this from conversations with a Muslim friend who was honest about it.
The West values freedom of thought and freedom of speech. These have never blossomed under Islam.
A close examination of the Quran, Hadith, and Sunna will show that indeed, the punishment for leaving Islam according to sharia is execution.

To begin with, the Quran does not come out and explicitly state that apostates should be murdered. However, there are a number of Quranic verses that pertain to apostasy, and they shed some light on the punishment for apostates.

Starting with the Quran. Sura 9:73,74

“Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fire. They swear by God that they said nothing. Yet they uttered the word of unbelief and renounced Islam after embracing it. They sought to do what they could not attain. Yet they had no reason to be spiteful except perhaps because God and His apostle had enriched them through His bounty. If they repent, it will indeed be better for them, but if they give no heed, God will sternly punish them, both in this world and in the world to come. They shall have none on this earth to protect or help them.”

We see here that Allah urges Muhammad to “make war” on the people who have left Islam. It also states that “Allah will punish them in this world and in the world to come”.

What exactly Muhammad was to do to the people in his “making war” on them is not explicitly stated, but it can be surmised that they will be physically punished, if not outright killed. Further, Allah Himself is also going to punish those who leave Islam. What is His punishment? Whatever it is, is will be unpleasant.

Additionally one could review Sura 3:86-91 and Sura 16:106. These verses clearly state that apostates will be punished in hellfire. However, though it is implied, the punishment meted out while they live is unclear. Sura 4:137, similarly shows that God will not forgive the apostates, but no mention of a earthly punishment is made.

The Dictionary of Quranic Terms and Concepts - page 16, (written by M. Mir - a Muslim writer), defines the actual Quranic information as:

“APOSTASY. Arabic “irtidad”. Traditional Islamic law prescribes the penalty of death for a Muslim who commits apostasy. The punishment is not stated in the Quran, but is said to be based on certain Hadith. The advocates and the opponents of the said penalty have, in their attempt to find Quranic support for their views, appealed to certain Quranic verses, but the fact is that none of the arguments offered do full justice to the Quranic context…”

So as you can see Hadi, I cannot argue from the Koran alone. And I apologize for making that statement. It was ill prepared and not well studied. I admit it without further ado.
However, Muhammad has commanded to kill apostates. And its sharia. Every serious Muslim must submit to the prophets example.

THE TEACHINGS OF THE HADITH ON APOSTASY:

On the punishment for the apostate. From the Hadith, we find no ambiguity on the subject. All quotes will be from Bukhari’s Hadith, from the 9 volume English set, translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan.

Bukhari, volume 9, #17

"Narrated Abdullah: Allah’s Messenger said, “**The blood of a Muslim ** who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims.”

Bukhari, volume 9, #37

"Narrated Abu Qilaba: Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him…He replied "By Allah, **Allah’s messenger never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: ** 1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) 2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and, 3) a man who fought against Allah and His messenger, and **deserted Islam **and became an apostate…

In Chapter 2, from "The Book of obliging the Reversers from Islam, page 42, (following Hadith #56) it reads:

"The legal regulation concerning the male and the female who reverts from Islam (apostates). Ibn Umar Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, "A female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed. And the obliging of the reverts from Islam to repent Allah said -

Bukhari, volume 9, #57

Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s messenger forbade it, saying, “Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).” I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

Bukhari, volume 9, #58

Narrated Abu Bruda, "Abu Musa said…Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Musa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and hen reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, “I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger,” and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, “Then we discussed the night prayers …”

ETC.

And you know that many people have been killed because of these verses, so dont deny the very sad reality that you face.
I hope you start joining your powers, however small they are, to that which is good.

Peace and salaam.

 

[jakasaki]

4 : 89

**They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them).

So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them, **

 

[Booklover]

More punishment from Allah for those who disbelieve:

047.034
YUSUFALI: Those who reject Allah, and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, then die rejecting Allah,- Allah will not forgive them.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them.
SHAKIR: Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah’s way, then they die while they are unbelievers, Allah will by no means forgive them.
047.035

Vickie

 

[Hadi]

So as you can see Hadi, I cannot argue from the Koran alone. And I apologize for making that statement. It was ill prepared and not well studied. I admit it without further ado.
However, Muhammad has commanded to kill apostates. And its sharia. Every serious Muslim must submit to the prophets example.
.

apologies accepted…

I am an Abadhi Muslim…like a Karaite Jew I don’t believe in the Oral tradition (Hadiths)

God says " No compulsion in religion"
God also says " You have your own religion and we have our religion" 109:6

I don’t want any muslim or non-muslim to put anything above the Word of God mentioned above,…especially things written 200 years after the Quran…when political issues needed religion to back them up

 

[Hadi]

More punishment from Allah for those who disbelieve:

047.034
YUSUFALI: Those who reject Allah, and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, then die rejecting Allah,- Allah will not forgive them.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them.
SHAKIR: Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah’s way, then they die while they are unbelievers, Allah will by no means forgive them.
047.035

Vickie

Does God in the Bible mention hellfire as a punishment ?? yes or no

 

[GraceDK]

apologies accepted…

I am an Abadhi Muslim…like a Karaite Jew I don’t believe in the Oral tradition (Hadiths)

God says " No compulsion in religion"
God also says " You have your own religion and we have our religion" 109:6

I don’t want any muslim or non-muslim to put anything above the Word of God mentioned above,…especially things written 200 years after the Quran…when political issues needed religion to back them up

Hadi.

Welcome to CAF - I see that you are new here - and thanks for joining us. Most of your brothers and sisters here are not earnestly looking at facts or trying to dialog with us based on historical evidence and theological reflection. Moreover they have no concept of covenant history - the old and new Covenant that God established first through Abraham and secondly and fulfillingly in Yeshua, the Son of God, Messiah of Israel and Saviour of all…
The prophets spoke about Him in the old Testament hundreds of years before He walked on earth, and the New Testament is based on eye witnesses and we even have copies of Sacred Scriptures within a short time after the death and resurrection of Jesus - carefully handwritten fragments and even whole Scriptures…

Yet your prophet denies our Scripture… your teachers say that the Jewish and Christian writings have been corrupted.

I have come to see that this is the point everything evolves around. You believe the Quran is written by God and I believe it is not. I believe that the Quran is the antithesis of the very person of God, and a contradiction to His Love, His Face and all His revelation.

So I would like to invite you to join me on a new thread. I, and my brothers here, will tell you how illogical from every perspective it is to say that the Quran stands above the Bible (we can show you errors in the Quran as well as critizise it from a moral and theological perspective) and give you historic and scientific evidence as to the Bibles that are preserved from the beginning, centuries before Muhammad even lived…
Would you take the challenge?

Hadi, in my eyes Islam lacks continuity with the previous salvation history and the god that revealed himself to Muhammad was not the same God that overshadowed Mary so she became pregnant with Jesus… It is not the same Spirit that inspired the Quran and the Bible.
So you have to study carefully whom you wish to believe.

As I said, I am glad you are here. Also, I hope you look at all the clips on this thread. Most of them are in Arabic with english subtitles… they are very interesting, also for you ven if you are in the minority who dont accept Hadith.

Peace and Salaam.

 

[Hadi]

I believe in the Torah we have today as preserved …And I’m trying sincerely to expand this to include the other books of the Hebrew Bible…but still not convinced

As for the NT ,I accept the first three books of the Gospels as valid and have a true message of salvation through the teachings of Christ…However I reject the Gospel of John and the other books of NT…

And believe me … I feel that many Islamic governments are oppressive and barbaric…especially in ME where there is only one state that is morally democratic ,Israel…which I support and pray that God may protect from Islamic terrorists…

 

[Hadi]

GraceDK :

God says in the Quran:
*
Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.

They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.

Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right. *

So I’d love to hear from Christians the phrase" Not all of them are alike " meaning Muslims…

 

[jakasaki]

We are way off topic at this point.

Perhaps you should open a new thread to discuss your new question because this thread has taken a different directions from the original OP…

 

[GraceDK]

I believe in the Torah we have today as preserved …And I’m trying sincerely to expand this to include the other books of the Hebrew Bible…but still not convinced

As for the NT ,I accept the first three books of the Gospels as valid and have a true message of salvation through the teachings of Christ…However I reject the Gospel of John and the other books of NT…

And believe me … I feel that many Islamic governments are oppressive and barbaric…especially in ME where there is only one state that is morally democratic ,Israel…which I support and pray that God may protect from Islamic terrorists…

Hadi…
That is so wonderful. Hallejula, praised be the Lord.

Yes, let us start a new tread. What is the name of the new thead… I will call it " Quran and Christ " that is wide enough …and if you dont mind I will start with this last post of yours. It will be the foundation of our dialog.

Peace to you

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

I believe in the Torah we have today as preserved

you mean , no changed took place in Torah ? Then this belief goes against holy Quran.

especially in ME where there is only one state that is morally democratic ,Israel…

Wooww , u forgot to mention that only this ’ democratic’ country has right to kill hundreds kids in the name of self defense.

btw , these are off topic discussion & Welcome to the forum.

 

[pismopal]

We already tolerate abortion, fornication, adultery, and homosexual acts. These are acts that God wrote with His Own Finger concerning. Why are you outraged about taxes???

Is the statement “why are you outraged about taxes?” the most important item you gleaned from my paragraph? This country tolerates a lot of things but we don’t tax and persecute those people who don’t belong to the islamic cult. You would approve of that?