Woman beaten publically in the name of Islam

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Alright… fair enough. You believe that the people of islam-watch.org are distorting the truth about islam. These people have left islam and when they attack islam its as an ideology and they use mainly Koran and Hadith in their discussions. I have read some high quality debates between them and very learned Muslims and I dont think that their service is irrelevant or false, even if it shows a very negative view of Islam and their personal conclusion was atheism, which I don’t agree with.

You don’t believe these strangers but will you believe your own brothers? I will quote to you a Catholic man, former Muslim who, out of love for his Muslim people wrote a book. this is what he wrote: “Although there are undoubtedly millions of virtuous Muslims, Islam itself is an incomplete, misleading and often down right false revelation, which in many ways directly contraditcts what god has revealed through the prophets of the Old Testament and through His Son Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh (…) its belief has serious consequences for human dignity and the cultures of the countries in which it dominates. For many reasons (which many in the West have tried to ignore or explain away) Islam constitutes a threat to the world at large (…) Islams theology and its agressive growth are not benign realities. Indeed Christians ignore them at their own risk.” (p. 16 Inside Islam. A guide for Catholics by Daniel Ali.)

I want to also direct you and other interested readers to the book by Mark A. Gabriel: Islam and terrorism. This man has taken on a Christian name but he is Egyptian by ethnicity and used to be a professor in islamic history at Al-Azhar in Cairo. He was also an imam. Today he is a Christian and his knowlege and own life experience is something worth reading.

If reading this book takes too long I refer you to two handpicked testimonies of two former very serious Muslims who became Christians through great inner struggles and many ways martyrdom:
**answering-islam.org/testimonies/ibrahim_kosovo.html **
and
**answering-islam.org/Authors/Qureshi/testimony.htm**These are your brothers in Christ and their testimonis deal with the essense of Islam’s problems and the apologetics it uses against Christianity… I strongly urge every Catholic here to read them. You can find many more testimonies on answering-islam.org

Lastly. My battle is not against Muslims, but against the ideology that has them chained. I too have Muslim friends.
Like in Communist Soviet Union and in Nazi Germany, not all Germans were bad, not all Russians were bad… they were just going along and many, many were silently approving of the evil comitted against the Jews or the political opponents in these tolitarian regimes… History judges these for their silence, their apathy, their disbelief about the horrors that took place right in their back yard where they could smell the death from gas chambers and see prisons full of unwanted elements.

Peace to you and your house.
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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But all the man has to do is say “I divorce you” three times.
God forbids it . Here is the correct process .

Surah 65. Divorce

O Prophet! When ye do divorce women, divorce them at their prescribed periods, and count (accurately), their prescribed periods:

And fear Allah your Lord: and turn them not out of their houses, nor shall they (themselves) leave, except in case they are guilty of some open lewdness, those are limits set by Allah. and any who transgresses the limits of Allah, does verily wrong his (own) soul: thou knowest not if perchance Allah will bring about thereafter some new situation. ( 65:1)
if a Muslim man in a Muslim country wants another wife he is going to get another wife regardless of what his wife/s says.
You can’t force anyone to live with the person s/he dislikes. When a husband or wife can’t stand each other , it’s better to end the married life . Divorce is not encouraged but allowed when necessary. Prophet (pbuh) said , among all lawful matters , God dislikes divorce most.

If divorce law is very strict , then people may find different ways to get rid of marriage. In India , divorce law is very strict . So , many husbands just burn wives alive in the kitchen , bribe Police & they cover up killings as accidents. I read it in an Indian magazine that thousands such cases take place there each year.
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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I say stop the hate and instead bow to God.
holy Quran ; Chapter Yunus | Jonah

Surely Allah does not do any injustice to men, but men are unjust to themselves.

French: En vérité, Allah n’est point injuste à l’égard des gens, mais ce sont les gens qui font du tord à eux-mêmes.

Spanish : Alá no es nada injusto con los hombres, sino que son los hombres los injustos consigo mismos

(10:44)
 
Alright… fair enough. You believe that the people of islam-watch.org are distorting the truth about islam. These people have left islam and when they attack islam its as an ideology and they use mainly Koran and Hadith in their discussions. I have read some high quality debates between them and very learned Muslims and I dont think that their service is irrelevant or false, even if it shows a very negative view of Islam and their personal conclusion was atheism, which I don’t agree with.

You don’t believe these strangers but will you believe your own brothers? I will quote to you a Catholic man, former Muslim who, out of love for his Muslim people wrote a book. this is what he wrote: “Although there are undoubtedly millions of virtuous Muslims, Islam itself is an incomplete, misleading and often down right false revelation, which in many ways directly contraditcts what god has revealed through the prophets of the Old Testament and through His Son Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh (…) its belief has serious consequences for human dignity and the cultures of the countries in which it dominates. For many reasons (which many in the West have tried to ignore or explain away) Islam constitutes a threat to the world at large (…) Islams theology and its agressive growth are not benign realities. Indeed Christians ignore them at their own risk.” (p. 16 Inside Islam. A guide for Catholics by Daniel Ali.)

I want to also direct you and other interested readers to the book by Mark A. Gabriel: Islam and terrorism. This man has taken on a Christian name but he is Egyptian by ethnicity and used to be a professor in islamic history at Al-Azhar in Cairo. He was also an imam. Today he is a Christian and his knowlege and own life experience is something worth reading.

If reading this book takes too long I refer you to two handpicked testimonies of two former very serious Muslims who became Christians through great inner struggles and many ways martyrdom:
answering-islam.org/testimonies/ibrahim_kosovo.html
and
**answering-islam.org/Authors/Qureshi/testimony.htm**These are your brothers in Christ and their testimonis deal with the essense of Islam’s problems and the apologetics it uses against Christianity… I strongly urge every Catholic here to read them. You can find many more testimonies on answering-islam.org

Lastly. My battle is not against Muslims, but against the ideology that has them chained. I too have Muslim friends.
Like in Communist Soviet Union and in Nazi Germany, not all Germans were bad, not all Russians were bad… they were just going along and many, many were silently approving of the evil comitted against the Jews or the political opponents in these tolitarian regimes… History judges these for their silence, their apathy, their disbelief about the horrors that took place right in their back yard where they could smell the death from gas chambers and see prisons full of unwanted elements.

Peace to you and your house.
Dear GraceDK,

What does this reply got to do with your OP and the title of the thread?

God bless.

Reuben
 
Dear GraceDK,

What does this reply got to do with your OP and the title of the thread?

God bless.

Reuben
It has do do with the generel attrocities comitted against basic human rights and human dignity in Islam and cultures dominated by islam. Thats what I seek to discuss in this thread that I started.
I have been told here by some, that their Muslim friends are nice people and that the opening vid is a fake vid, so I point out other sources of information where people can get an idea about what is actually going on.
Also, there has been raised the objection that Taleban does not represent true sharia law and how the OT, to some posters here, equals the Quran in brutality.
I think these points are very important to discuss and I will address this poster today.
My emphasise here is more the last part than the first part of my title: Woman beaten publicy in the name of Islam.
A problem like this is not an isolated one but has to do with mentality and ideology…

And I still wonder how anyone in their right mind can say this is a fake vid. To me it looked authentic and I couldn’t bear to listen to this poor woman’s repeated screaming and begging… these people who beat her are truly sick in the head.
 
This video is for you.
It’s a newspiece from AlJezeera, the Muslims world’s most recognized news channel even if its from a western democratic view point is highly questionable because it openly advocates killing of Jews etc.

youtube.com/watch?v=idQxFYlEjIc&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

I post this clip for YOU because there, in the middle of this clip, is a recording from the same area as the first one I posted, which you questioned, and here the same exact same procedure of public flogging is carried out in the exact same fashion by the local religious police.

You may want to hide your head in a bush… but that will not help our fellow world-citizens. You have lived in Iran, I have lived in Israel-Palestine… you say the first recording is false, I say its most probably a real recording. Based on my studies and observations about what took place in the Holy Land and also in my own country, studying dozens of testimonies, books and the news from the last 10 years, I have no reason to doubt it.
 
You may want to hide your head in a bush… but that will not help our fellow world-citizens. You have lived in Iran, I have lived in Israel-Palestine… you say the first recording is false, I say its most probably a real recording. Based on my studies and observations about what took place in the Holy Land and also in my own country, studying dozens of testimonies, books and the news from the last 10 years, I have no reason to doubt it.
I agree with GraceDK, I think that video is real, flogging is well known in the Islamic dogma, we do it almost on a weekly bases after Friday prayer to punch those caught by our religious police (aka: The Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice) (Arabic: هيئه الأمر بالمعروف و النهي عن المنكر).
 
It has do do with the generel attrocities comitted against basic human rights and human dignity in Islam and cultures dominated by islam. Thats what I seek to discuss in this thread that I started.
I have been told here by some, that their Muslim friends are nice people and that the opening vid is a fake vid, so I point out other sources of information where people can get an idea about what is actually going on.
Also, there has been raised the objection that Taleban does not represent true sharia law and how the OT, to some posters here, equals the Quran in brutality.
I think these points are very important to discuss and I will address this poster today.
My emphasise here is more the last part than the first part of my title: Woman beaten publicy in the name of Islam.
A problem like this is not an isolated one but has to do with mentality and ideology…

And I still wonder how anyone in their right mind can say this is a fake vid. To me it looked authentic and I couldn’t bear to listen to this poor woman’s repeated screaming and begging… these people who beat her are truly sick in the head.
I am beginning to see what you’re getting at. My only objection to this kind of thread is that it tends to generalize. We cannot draw a conclusion from what people do and say their religion responsible for it as much as we don’t want others to do the same to us.

I tend to agree that Islam is a violent religion as compared to Christianity and my opinion on Mohammad, its prophet, is not exactly complimentary which I’d rather keep to myself most of the time. Having said that there are good numbers of Muslims who are, let’s say, good people. In fact many of them are people like you and me; they care about their future, about the welfare of their family and children, they have aspiration and they are also religious. In that sense there is not much that separates us from them.

But we have come to an age where we begin to see the rise of Islamic fervent. Are you sociologist by any chance? There are many factors why this happen. A century later from now perhaps historians will tell us with greater authority on why this phenomenon manifests today. Remember we had Communism and Fascism and they originated from Christian countries and by Christians. We also have Christians killing each other by the millions in certain nations in Africa recently.

It is a fact that atrocities committed in Islamic countries are quite prevalent. But my sense of fair play would not draw a conclusion that Islam permits what they are doing. And this is what most Muslims will tell you too.

So, as long as you are fighting against abuse of human right done in the name of Islam, I am in complete agreement with you. If you want to critique Islam I would rather we look into the life of Mohammad, the Quran and the Hadith. And there are plenty that we can find there.

God bless.

Reuben
 
timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6030741.ece

Once again Western civilisaion is shocked and bevildered at the barbarity in Islamic countries, the hypocrisy and the dehumanisation of women there.

I am glad we have some Muslims on this board who knows and probably appreciates the freedom rights they have in western societies.

Now I would like to hear their response to this madness.

Peace and shalom.
This is a very complicated issue and cannot be addressed by simple outrage or defence. If you are discusted by this, know that Islam is not the object of your discust. If you intend to defend this action, know that societies like Pakistan and Afghanistan is full of social ills that need to be recognized and dealt with. Context is extremely important.
 
I do not enjoy the stories of brutality coming from islamic countries but I am not empowered to do anything about these acts…I just disaprove…the country is theirs!
What I am concerned about is the migration of people who bring this culture to the west. They want to (most of them) live by rules that would allow them to beat me and my wife…tax me and relegate me to an inferior status because I am not muslim.
This is not hate speech or stereotyping…it is an undeniable fact. Have we become so tolerant that we tolerate even intolerance that is so virulent that our lives are in danger…to say nothing of the freedoms that we cherish. What a time we live in, not only are not willing to struggle for freedom, we are indifferent to it.😦
 
I do not enjoy the stories of brutality coming from islamic countries but I am not empowered to do anything about these acts…I just disaprove…the country is theirs!
What I am concerned about is the migration of people who bring this culture to the west. They want to (most of them) live by rules that would allow them to beat me and my wife…tax me and relegate me to an inferior status because I am not muslim.
This is not hate speech or stereotyping…it is an undeniable fact. Have we become so tolerant that we tolerate even intolerance that is so virulent that our lives are in danger…to say nothing of the freedoms that we cherish. What a time we live in, not only are not willing to struggle for freedom, we are indifferent to it.😦
We already tolerate abortion, fornication, adultery, and homosexual acts. These are acts that God wrote with His Own Finger concerning. Why are you outraged about taxes???
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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We already tolerate abortion, fornication, adultery, and homosexual acts. These are acts that God wrote with His Own Finger concerning. Why are you outraged about taxes???
I sometimes think about this : if Christians can tolerate gay marriage , gay Priests etc etc , then why they are so vocal about hijab & other issues related to Islam only ? :confused:

Also suddenly so many anti-Islamic videos came online — US now wants to attack Pakistan & may be these are some ground
works to create public support ? 🤷

May be not …just this thought came in to mind.
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

I sometimes think about this : if Christians can tolerate gay marriage , gay Priests etc etc , then why they are so vocal about hijab & other issues related to Islam only ? :confused:

Also suddenly so many anti-Islamic videos came online — US now wants to attack Pakistan & may be these are some ground
works to create public support ? 🤷

May be not …just this thought came in to mind.
I think the answer is easy.
  1. Most Christians believe in the “separation of Church and State” as if it were a dogma of the faith. So, when they see instances where the state aims to uphold public morality, they immediately cringe. This is despite the fact that this church/state dichotomy is relatively new to Catholicism.
  2. Most Christians have bought into the idea that morality is a personal choice. This is diametrically opposed to the Catholic Church’s official (& therefore God’s) teaching on the issues that you mentioned. Catholic teaching is based on a Aristotelian/Anselm/Thomist view of Natural Law. So, you could say the 10 Commandments (not recommendations ;)) are hard-wired into our humanity. Homosexuality, for example, is called “objectively disordered” in the catechism. I have had a few discussions with a few Catholic, though, who think that they know better than the Magisterium of the Church, the Bible, 2000 years of tradition, and the biological sciences itself.
  3. Catholics are not as charitable (that roughly means loving) towards Muslims as they should be. Catholicism teachs that some truth can be gleaned from Islam and Judaism; as well as other religions. Catholicism, though, teachs that it is the fullness of Truth. Catholics cannot not even say that Muslims will go to Hell. For that matter, none of us know who will go to Hell.Muslims and Christians are brothers and need to respectfully dialog with one another. It is all the more important, since all religions and basic, common morality are under attack by an increasingly hedonistic world. In my opinion, it is time to work together to uphold the moral teachings of our father, Abraham.
 
Dear Meedo.
I have pondered a response to you and hope you read this. Especially the next post which answer your hardest critique. Your questions and your counter-problematizing of Christianity is important and valid. So are the answers I post.

**meedo;
The Taleban allows women out on the street only when they are accompanied by their husbands.’’
According to the article you posted , the above is the offence that the girl has committed in the eyes of the Taliban.
This may be an offence in their eyes but not in Islam’s eyes. In the time of the prophet hismelf ladies went out in the streets a lone all the time. Many worked and many travelled.
Islam doesn’t have a punishment for what she did. With better education in their own faith they can learn better . **

I am aware of that. However, the Muslims in the whole world face the problem that in all Islamic states the freedom and equality of women are under serious attack. An other example is Saudi Arabia where women are not allowed to go out without a boy, or even drive a car. Also, in case of divorce, a woman has no right to her children. The tendency of this unequality is a tendency of Islam and therefore a temptation to go even further.

However Islam is not responsible for their actions.

I think you can see the absurdity of that statement. You know with your logical mind that the religion or worldview of a population very much influences their actions and their society. There is a reason why we see all these occurences in Islamic states… Women are not protected by the authorities in any Arabic country because Islam is a very shuvanistic and even hostile religion towards women. Look at the other clips on this thread to see the statements and testimonies from Arab women who encounter this reality daily in the Middle East.

Flogging as a punishment is done when a not previously married person ( male or female) have intercourse with a person of the opposite Gender. For homosexuality the punishment is death. There must be 4 witness for the punishment to be carried . Or it could be carried by willing confession. ( not under any way of duress) . There is no other way to apply the punishment ( not even pregnancy of an unmarried woman and i know some ignorant people in some countries do not follow that but that is their problem and not Islam)

I am happy none of my male or female Muslim aquaintances have been flogged though many have fallen into sexual sin. I believe such public humiliation drives people away from God, not closer to Him and it instals harshness and hypocrisy into the soul of society.
Also
It IS a problem of Islam, because the cruelty of your prophet is your problem indeed. We know he massacred a whole Jewish tribe and on the same day raped two girls who were the only survivors. How will we eventually think of you when you seek to justify such a man?
 
As for barbarism . I believe that God laws should be applied no matter what . If that makes me a barbarian then i am one of them . It is better that i am called barbarian on earth . Than tell God that i was too shy of a bunch of non believers who considered your own laws barbarian.

In the Holy book of the Christian religion there exists all sorts of violence and ‘‘barbarism’’ by God himself. But christians seem to be ashamed of it . And then comes the double personality God of the OT and the NT . One is so barbarian and one does nothing at all.

I like Islam because it doesn’t bow to people. Just put it as it is and doesn’t care . Flogging will be flogging not because Muslims are blood thirsty but because we value God laws over public relations.
You say you like Islam because it does not bow to people… I suddenly think of Jesus washing the feet of His disciples, telling them: “Love one another… and serve, like I have served you”.

Now to your argument. It is two fold:
  • the Old Testament God differs, in your eyes, from Jesus Christ rendering the Bible untrustworthy from a Muslim perspective.
  • Allah’s command must be followed, even if it means you be called a barbarian.
Firstly I would like to answer like I did one of your sisters here who also brought up the evident harshness in the Old Testament narratives:

You ask about the Old Testament. But let me ask you. What happend when King David saw the beautiful naked woman who was washing herself? David had her husband sent to the front line so that the King could sleep with her. That was a crime and evil. And the big king saw that and he came to God in tears and repentance, setting an example for posterity as a repentant sinner. You never see Muhammad acknowlege his evil. Because of David’s sins and the wars he led he was not allowed to built the Temple to Jahve. But your prophet who had soo much blood on his hands built the kaba in Mekka… actually he took over a pagan shrine…where people now go on their hajj.

The Old Testament is the first covenant, the time of justice. The law of moses was imperfect, that means, lower than what Good God truly intented for his people. Its written that it was only suppose to last a certain time. When we read the stories in the OT we read a historical document, where God is walking with His chosen people and protecting them. Not because they were perfect, neither were their kings nor great men, so we dont hold these as great examples in other things than the things that were truly brave and good. Like Joseph’s compassion on his brothers, Abraham’s lonely faith, Moses’ liberation of his people etc.
That time was still the time of justice. The order was a sad but necessary consequence of the extreme fall of Adam. That means the time between the fall of Adam and the coming of Jesus is not the fulfiment of Gods wishes and promises for mankind. Only Christ is… From Adam to Christ the people was being raised, prpared and protected from false gods for the purpose that they would bring forth the Messiah Jesus from their midst for the salvation of all mankind. So if harshness was deemed necessary by God himself it was because He wanted to bring YOU a Saviour.
The justice then and even the harshness was a sad thing, as we all agree on. Evan God weeps over the sins of Jerusalem and of the whole world. These sins caused and causes calamity, not because its Gods wish. God loves us so much that while we were yet sinners, He came and gave His Life for us.

Yet you should admit that we as Christians hold Jesus to be our one and only mediator, the Only One who is truly good and innocent. He is our EXAMPLE. He is the fulfilment of the old insufficient time of covenant, whereas your “seal of prophets”, your end, is worse than the beginning.
In all honesty you have to compare Muhammad and Christ, because these two are the ones you and I respectively claim to be the highest most noble reflexion of the Will and Being of God.

To the second issue. You say you believe Allahs commands should be obeyed no matter what. What I see, when I read your post is the assumption that: Because Allah is god, I must obey.
I don’t follow that logic. You should not follow a person who is evil because he is powerful. If you live under the reign of a tyrant you better disobey him, even if it causes you to be punished. Better be punished by an evil man, than to join your forces, however feeble, to his mighty ones.
We must follow Good, no matter how powerful is evil.
Its better to follow a good man than an evil god. Thats something for your logic and consciense to ponder.
God has created us with moral conscience, intellect and science so that we recognize His Heart through them all, not sacrificing even one of them.

I am a Christian.
If one day I find a man whose goodness exeedes God’s then I will follow him rather than God, but I have met no one whose Love exedes that of the Messiah and Lord I worship. The best of humans were those who were filled with His spirit, like Mother Teresa and Maximillian Kolbe and so many others. Jesus was their inspiration.

Peace to you and your house. 🙂
 
Reuben J:
I am beginning to see what you’re getting at. My only objection to this kind of thread is that it tends to generalize. We cannot draw a conclusion from what people do and say their religion responsible for it as much as we don’t want others to do the same to us
.

I would like to take the risk of sounding generalising rather than to keep quiet about the suffering and deception of one billion of our fellow human beings. You may say I am cruel, but I think its more cruel to call one self a Christian and care nothing about the salvation of others. I am not saying you are like that, but too many prefer to take the easy and pleasant way out, becoming relativists and saying all roads lead to heaven.

I tend to agree that Islam is a violent religion as compared to Christianity and my opinion on Mohammad, its prophet, is not exactly complimentary which I’d rather keep to myself most of the time. Having said that there are good numbers of Muslims who are, let’s say, good people. In fact many of them are people like you and me; they care about their future, about the welfare of their family and children, they have aspiration and they are also religious. In that sense there is not much that separates us from them.

There is no need for you to talk to me like I am a child. I have talked to quite a few Muslims in my life time and I also have friends that are either Muslims, former Muslims turned Christian and former Muslims turned atheists. I find that the majority of the good that is in them is directed by their conscience and taught democratic principles, love of family and country etc… these are common good in all people. However I believe that Islam distorts even the things it pretends to have correct: there is one god, yes, but who is this god?.. if we take a closer look we see some one who is changable, full of flesh and who is cursing even what we know to be the greatest Truth as Christians, that Jesus is God. Justice, very good, but which justice? a justice that leads to dehumanisation, hypocrisy, harshness and fear.
Search for truth? Really? how… by denying religious freedom, denying fredom of utterance etc.

**But we have come to an age where we begin to see the rise of Islamic fervent. Are you sociologist by any chance? There are many factors why this happen. A century later from now perhaps historians will tell us with greater authority on why this phenomenon manifests today. Remember we had Communism and Fascism and they originated from Christian countries and by Christians. We also have Christians killing each other by the millions in certain nations in Africa recently. **

You are right that fascism and communism arose in earlier Christian areas. However, you cannot say these ideologies were founded by believers. For one we know that Karl Marx was hostile to all religion calling it the opium of the masses. In the soviet union Christians were persucuted as in all communist lands. And Hitler hated Christianity. The ideologies were able to take root because in the culturally Christian society there will always be freedom of humans to choose evil over good for themselves.
I would like to know which millions of Christians you speak of in Africa? I have not read about it. I know that in Darfur it was not Christians but Muslims…

It is a fact that atrocities committed in Islamic countries are quite prevalent. But my sense of fair play would not draw a conclusion that Islam permits what they are doing. And this is what most Muslims will tell you too.

But brother, this is where I must disagree. And so will every Christian who has once been a Muslim. Islam sanctiones violence and supression of women, of apostates, of certain kinds of sinners… its a tolitarian system based on the example of a prophet whose own morals were extremely disturbing.

**So, as long as you are fighting against abuse of human right done in the name of Islam, I am in complete agreement with you. If you want to critique Islam I would rather we look into the life of Mohammad, the Quran and the Hadith. And there are plenty that we can find there. **

Very well… But I also do that. I give examples from Koran and Hadith and I post links where even imams and Muslims talk about how to treat (and beat) women so that we have the absurdities coming from their own lips.
After all I post, I am asked to justify myself.
That’s yet another tendency of Christianity… our extreme self scrutiny and apologising for even our right to criticise… our bowing down to every harsh voice is making Europe loose its freedom-principles even as we speak.
 
Thanks for pointing that out to me brother… yet another absurd denial of reality…
 
.Muslims and Christians are brothers and need to respectfully dialog with one another. It is all the more important, since all religions and basic, common morality are under attack by an increasingly hedonistic world. In my opinion, it is time to work together to uphold the moral teachings of our father, Abraham.
Will you also respectfully dialog with a man who has been a Muslim and who has chosen to follow Christ as his Lord after serious study and prayer?
You cannot do that, because your Koran says to kill such a man. How will you then go into dialog? And with what purpose do you want to dialog?
Common morality are under attack. Yes, but the Church must never join one side of evil in order to win against another.
Let me remind you, my friend, that the crowd wanted to make Jesus King. They could have made a revolution and made Him a leader. We read that He left this euphoric crowd and all the power they wanted to extent to Him, and He went away to pray. He did not join with the forces of this world.
“Therefore I was born”, He said: “To testify to the Truth”. He also said: “My kingdom is not of this world”.
What was the moral teachings of our Father Abraham? According to our Scripture He was pointing towards Christ. In yours, he is mainly a father to Ismael and pointing towards Muhammad. But the moral teachings of Muhammad are not compatible with Christian morality. In Christ Truth and Love and Justice have become one. And the biggest mystery that you cannot grasp until the day you humbly receives it: The justice of God is Mercy,. its unfathomable… it makes us speechless, humble, compassionate with one another because we have looked COMPASSION into the Eye.
Do you understand what I am saying ?

Jesus could have become king in this world but He chose the cross of your redemption. Satan wanted to give him a lot of power in the flesh, but Jesus said: “Get behind me satan because you don’t want what God wants but what man wants”.
So too with Muhammad…

As Padre Pio once said: “You cannot fight evil with the devil”.
I am sorry if this sounds harsh. But it’s true. I hope you continue your search… do not look into protestantism or catholicism etc… Look into Christ. All else is secondary.

Peace to you and your house.
 
Reuben J:
I am beginning to see what you’re getting at. My only objection to this kind of thread is that it tends to generalize. We cannot draw a conclusion from what people do and say their religion responsible for it as much as we don’t want others to do the same to us
.

I would like to take the risk of sounding generalising rather than to keep quiet about the suffering and deception of one billion of our fellow human beings. You may say I am cruel, but I think its more cruel to call one self a Christian and care nothing about the salvation of others. I am not saying you are like that, but too many prefer to take the easy and pleasant way out, becoming relativists and saying all roads lead to heaven.

I tend to agree that Islam is a violent religion as compared to Christianity and my opinion on Mohammad, its prophet, is not exactly complimentary which I’d rather keep to myself most of the time. Having said that there are good numbers of Muslims who are, let’s say, good people. In fact many of them are people like you and me; they care about their future, about the welfare of their family and children, they have aspiration and they are also religious. In that sense there is not much that separates us from them.

There is no need for you to talk to me like I am a child. I have talked to quite a few Muslims in my life time and I also have friends that are either Muslims, former Muslims turned Christian and former Muslims turned atheists. I find that the majority of the good that is in them is directed by their conscience and taught democratic principles, love of family and country etc… these are common good in all people. However I believe that Islam distorts even the things it pretends to have correct: there is one god, yes, but who is this god?.. if we take a closer look we see some one who is changable, full of flesh and who is cursing even what we know to be the greatest Truth as Christians, that Jesus is God. Justice, very good, but which justice? a justice that leads to dehumanisation, hypocrisy, harshness and fear.
Search for truth? Really? how… by denying religious freedom, denying fredom of utterance etc.

**But we have come to an age where we begin to see the rise of Islamic fervent. Are you sociologist by any chance? There are many factors why this happen. A century later from now perhaps historians will tell us with greater authority on why this phenomenon manifests today. Remember we had Communism and Fascism and they originated from Christian countries and by Christians. We also have Christians killing each other by the millions in certain nations in Africa recently. **

You are right that fascism and communism arose in earlier Christian areas. However, you cannot say these ideologies were founded by believers. For one we know that Karl Marx was hostile to all religion calling it the opium of the masses. In the soviet union Christians were persucuted as in all communist lands. And Hitler hated Christianity. The ideologies were able to take root because in the culturally Christian society there will always be freedom of humans to choose evil over good for themselves.
I would like to know which millions of Christians you speak of in Africa? I have not read about it. I know that in Darfur it was not Christians but Muslims…

It is a fact that atrocities committed in Islamic countries are quite prevalent. But my sense of fair play would not draw a conclusion that Islam permits what they are doing. And this is what most Muslims will tell you too.

But brother, this is where I must disagree. And so will every Christian who has once been a Muslim. Islam sanctiones violence and supression of women, of apostates, of certain kinds of sinners… its a tolitarian system based on the example of a prophet whose own morals were extremely disturbing.

**So, as long as you are fighting against abuse of human right done in the name of Islam, I am in complete agreement with you. If you want to critique Islam I would rather we look into the life of Mohammad, the Quran and the Hadith. And there are plenty that we can find there. **

Very well… But I also do that. I give examples from Koran and Hadith and I post links where even imams and Muslims talk about how to treat (and beat) women so that we have the absurdities coming from their own lips.
After all I post, I am asked to justify myself.
That’s yet another tendency of Christianity… our extreme self scrutiny and apologising for even our right to criticise… our bowing down to every harsh voice is making Europe loose its freedom-principles even as we speak.
Now look here GraceDK, in much of it I agree with you. I am just not comfortable about selecting a few incidents done in Islamic countries and say those are Islam though in my heart I would want to. Muslims have denied them, not just the Muslim posters here but also real life ones. Since you have Muslim friends too perhaps a frank dialogue with them will confirm this position of mine.

You have clarified that you are against the human rights abuses and the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. I would not have done less and so I have no problem with you now.

I was making general statement about the origin of Communism/Fascism by way of emphasizing a point. The bottom line is Communism originated from a Christian country. I am glad you see my point because when you dig into it, hey, Marx, Hitler, et al were actually anti-Christians. This is what Muslims would tell us about the Talibans (or the Saudis, the Pakistanis or Al Qieda extremists) - a bunch of rogues, misguided Muslims even if their intention is good.

About the Africa killings – in 1994 alone in what today we call the Rwanda genocide, between 800,000 and 1,000,000, were killed which could be as high as 20% of the total Rwanda population in an inter-tribal violence between the Catholic Hutus and the Protestants Tutsis. The killings also spread to neighboring countries. You can look this up if you want to. Again it would be unfair to generalize those Catholics are racists (or Catholism equals racism) just because they nearly annihilated the whole enemy tribe.

God bless you.

Reuben
 
Reuben J:
Now look here GraceDK, in much of it I agree with you. I am just not comfortable about selecting a few incidents done in Islamic countries and say those are Islam though in my heart I would want to. Muslims have denied them, not just the Muslim posters here but also real life ones. Since you have Muslim friends too perhaps a frank dialogue with them will confirm this position of mine.


I don’t have many muslim friends and the ones I do have I will not talk about these things with too much because they are not versed in democratic dialog and finding out evidence. I have one friend who denied to my face that there were Jews in the Holy Land two thousand years ago and he refused to believe Jesus was a Jew. When I said: “Now wait…” he became defensive and said: “You know nothing about Christianity! And I wont talk about it with you!”
I give this example because this is one of the root problems. You take for granted that a factual discussion is possible but I doubt it. When I was 19 we had a few Muslims in my class. During religious education, when some actual news was mentioned (that children at a certian school had been threatened by Muslim kids to take off their crosses) the Muslims in my class got angry… not at the Muslim kids’ stupidity but at the teacher who passed the information… I can continue these stories if you like…
However, more importantly. You say that it’s a few incidents that took place in Muslim countries that I now have selected and used wrongly. But here I disagree with you. I would like you to realise that its tendencies that I speak of… not incidents. In the Palestinian population as well of among Muslims in my own country I saw how differently men and women were treated in terms of their personal freedom, and how rouch the culture was, full of anger, self-victimization and pride. If you have seen the clips on this thread you can see that there is a tendency in Muslim countries for the authorities to side with the male criminal against the woman victim, just like there is a lack of consequence for people who openly persecute and harm Christians and other religious minorities in these countries. There are countless of these incidents. I want you to study about religious freedom in Muslim countries. Why are Christian populations dying out in countries that were once dominantly Christian in the Middle East? Study it…

You have clarified that you are against the human rights abuses and the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. I would not have done less and so I have no problem with you now.

You dont need me to educate you. Reality will catch up with you… If you have a problem with me its because its a sad situation. I was once called a racist by a muslim friend of mine because I litterally stated I was worried about the very large immigration into my country. People that made a drawing of Muhammad with a bomb in his turban are living undercover, a fatwa is out on their head. They receive threatening letters from Muslims who live in the democratic state of Denmark and have seen the democratic way of life but who want sharia instead. Again, I want to remind you of Adolf Hitler. One man with one really bad book who got into politics and became the worst tyrant ever seen-

**I was making general statement about the origin of Communism/Fascism by way of emphasizing a point. The bottom line is Communism originated from a Christian country. I am glad you see my point because when you dig into it, hey, Marx, Hitler, et al were actually anti-Christians. This is what Muslims would tell us about the Talibans (or the Saudis, the Pakistanis or Al Qieda extremists) - a bunch of rogues, misguided Muslims even if their intention is good. **

But brother. These misfits find the bullets for their guns in their very scripture. Dont you then see the difference even? Hitler never used the New Testament nor did Marx… Because there was no justification for their acts in them. However, the former-Muslim debators like Ayaan Hirsi Ali say that the true Muslim is the one who follows the Koran and Hadith and therefore wages Jihad precisely like Muhammad did. But if a Christian turns fundamentalist he might become a monk or die like Kolbe, giving his life for someone else, because he so radically believes in the Christ.

About the Africa killings – in 1994 alone in what today we call the Rwanda genocide, between 800,000 and 1,000,000, were killed which could be as high as 20% of the total Rwanda population in an inter-tribal violence between the Catholic Hutus and the Protestants Tutsis. The killings also spread to neighboring countries. You can look this up if you want to. Again it would be unfair to generalize those Catholics are racists (or Catholism equals racism) just because they nearly annihilated the whole enemy tribe.

I have never heard that the Hutus and Tutsis had any specific religion. As far as I have always learned their battle was about ethnicity/race and politics. Not about religion. This is the same in Ireland. No one can say that Christ was a man of war or even a politician… absolutely not. And that makes all the difference. When I see people who call themselves Christians who commit evil I know they are not sanctioned by Scripture so I say they fall because of their humanity and because of the devil. But if a Muslim says: Allahu ackbar and shoots a whole dozen of school boys in a yeshiva in Jerusalem I know that this guy acts not only politically but also as a religious fanatic backed by his god…

Peace.
 
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