Woman in Islam.

[jakasaki]

1. Woman can be beaten.

(Quran 4:34):
“…and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them;…”

وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ

1. Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

al-quran.info/#&&sura=4&trans=en-shakir&show=both,quran-uthmani&format=rows&ver=1.00

• surely allah is high & great - beat those wives into submission -

 

[jakasaki]

What’s the difference between “kind of marriage” and “marriage”?

I understood your previous explanation (in the other thread) that masters were not to have sex with slaves unless they married them first, but that is NOT what your previous post in this thread says. You wrote:

According to this Muslims can have sex with slave women - it does not say anything about marriage. ** And THEN, it goes on to say that “in so doing the woman would automatically become free if she got pregnant” **which I take to mean that she is NOT free until she gets pregnant - which further means either a.) she is not married or b.) marriage does not free the woman and she is still considered a slave.

And did mohamad and islam take in consideration who now is going to take care of this “free slave woman with a baby” once she’s freed… ???

 

[elwill]

What’s the difference between “kind of marriage” and “marriage”?

According to this Muslims can have sex with slave women - it does not say anything about marriage. And THEN, it goes on to say that “in so doing the woman would automatically become free if she got pregnant” which I take to mean that she is NOT free until she gets pregnant - which further means either a.) she is not married or b.) marriage does not free the woman and she is still considered a slave.

which muslims can have sex with slave women !

jay , actually this issue is only of academic value now. It is most likely that people know about this issue theoretically, because some of the critics of Islam raise this issue to attack Islam and its principles.

islam allowed it in the time when slavery were rooted in the worldwide as a positive step toward freedom of slaves

what is the marriage and what is the adultery ? in both of them the man intercourse sexualy with a woman so what is the difference ?
well , the difference is that when a man intercourse with women in adultery , the man will be not responsible for anything toward the woman
but in marriage , the woman have many many rights which the man obligated to give her

1- The wife is naturally entitled for food, clothing, housing and other related items with expenses to be born by the husband.

2- The Mahr (dowry): This is the money to which the wife is entitled from her husband when the marriage contract is completed or when the marriage is consummated. It is a right which the man is obliged to pay to the woman ( in the case of slaves her dowery is her freedom )

3. Accommodation: This is also one of the wife’s rights, which means that her husband should prepare for her accommodation according to his means and ability. Allaah Almighty Says (what means): “Lodge them [in a section] of where you dwell out of your means and do not harm them in order to oppress them…” [Quran 65: 6]

the most imporatnt thing , that the wife inherit her husband after his death , and her son have his share either from inheritance

jay , when muslim commit adultery he have no responsibilities to give his whore all these rights
islam gave the same rights to slave if her master wnated to intercourse sexualy with her
if any muslim intercoursed sexually with any of his slave without giving her the rights which prescribed to such relation by islam , so absolutly it’s illegal and absolutly it’s adultery
that’s why i considered it to be marriage contract

when i said " kind of marriage " i didn’t mean that it’s not marriage , but the tradition is that when someone want to marry woman he will go to her family and take the permission from her and from her family m if they agreed they will give him the pride to live with him

in the situation of slave , he himself is his master , she allready lives with him and serving him and he deal with her kindly and feed her and dial with her as one of the family according to islamic teachhing ( he just can’t intercourse with her but by the conditions of islam ) so it’s another contract of marriage
that’s why i said that it’s kind of marriage

in these days the marriage wasn’t reguired for someone to go to the church or to the mosque and it dosn’t require for someone to decoument paper of marrige …etc
the marriage was more simple that that , declaration of relation for the people was enough to be marriage contract

to declare my point more clear , plz open th OT and read with me Judges 21: 10- 24

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, **“Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! ** And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.’” ** So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. ** Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

So note, the men hide behind bushes like stalkers, and they wait for the women and once they see the women they rush the women and kidnap them and then basically marry them! This is clear rape
the story refered to them as wives and refered to the intercouse as marriage , but be honest , the words " marriage" and " wife" dosn’t change the fact that it was clear rape not mrraige

 

[planten]

• surely allah is high & great - beat those wives into submission -

No, No, jakasaki. That would be foolish to beat a wife without a serious cause. Please if you read verse of the Quran which advises men to beat their wife, it will be written there that “They disobey and become insolent and out of normal control.” Please do not be afraid of Islam. Islam does not allow any beating without a serious cause. I mean, no Muslim will come home drunk, from the pub and starts abusing and beating his poor wife who had been left in the home. Such things do not happen in Muslim countries.

 

[Paul_89_33]

i can’t understand why i have to feel shame , my religion helped to end slavery

False
how can the invitation to take such number of women as slaves (10 or 100 or 1.000.000) is the help to end slavery ???!!!
don’t you know that Quran rules are current at all !!!
they lie when they says that islam help to end slavery
don’t trust them , review always your fake religion and you’ll see the contrary

my religion make me proud actually

AHAAA … so you are proud to slavery free women and transforme them to less than animals
you’re proud when your fake religion legalize PEDOPHELIA
BRAVO and that’s for your honestly directness

beside your records have nothing with teaching of islam islam was revealed through 23 years , it didn’t prohibit everything in the first year
when exactly from the period of islamic massage bn omar was talking about buying slaves ? can you tell me may be he was talking about his tradition before islam , right ? who knows

ibn khatab was is 22 years old when mohamed died
and what he did is the soul of islam and really you make me laugh man when you says " beside your records have nothing with teaching of islam " ahah
why ?
isen’t slavery is legalized in islam ?
isen’t buying slaves women is legal in islam ?
so what do you refuse exactly !!!
and just take what your mother Aicha said about ibnkhatab

ولقد أثار فرط اتباعه هذا، أم المؤمنين عائشة رضي الله عنها فقالت:
“ما كان أحد يتبع آثار النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في منازله، كما كان يتبعه ابن عمر”.

what do you think about what your mother says ?
let’s read more about this islamic personality very revered and respected

ولقد قضى عمره الطويل المبارك على هذا الولاء الوثيق، حتى لقد حاء على المسلمين زمان كان صالحهم يدعو ويقول:
“اللهم أبق عبدالله بن عمر ما أبقيتني، كي أقتدي به، فاني لا أعلم أحد على الأمر الأول غيره”.

ibnomar this man was the best islamicly and the most man who mohamed effect in him

and you say honestly thats my records have nothing with islam teaching !!!
and tell me now
you feel shame right now or not ?

 

[Paul_89_33]

which muslims can have sex with slave women !
islam allowed it in the time when slavery were rooted in the worldwide as a positive step toward freedom of slaves

sorry elwill
what do you mean ?
idon’t understand you better

 

[godhavemercy]

No, No, jakasaki. That would be foolish to beat a wife without a serious cause. Please if you read verse of the Quran which advises men to beat their wife, it will be written there that “They disobey and become insolent and out of normal control.” Please do not be afraid of Islam. Islam does not allow any beating without a serious cause. I mean, no Muslim will come home drunk, from the pub and starts abusing and beating his poor wife who had been left in the home. Such things do not happen in Muslim countries.

So you are saying it would be foolish in general to beat your wife but perfectly alright to beat your wife for any reason that you might consider serious. What is your defenition of Serious

 

[Jay53]

which muslims can have sex with slave women !

jay , actually this issue is only of academic value now. It is most likely that people know about this issue theoretically, because some of the critics of Islam raise this issue to attack Islam and its principles.

islam allowed it in the time when slavery were rooted in the worldwide as a positive step toward freedom of slaves

what is the marriage and what is the adultery ? in both of them the man intercourse sexualy with a woman so what is the difference ?
well , the difference is that when a man intercourse with women in adultery , the man will be not responsible for anything toward the woman
but in marriage , the woman have many many rights which the man obligated to give her

1- The wife is naturally entitled for food, clothing, housing and other related items with expenses to be born by the husband.

2- The Mahr (dowry): This is the money to which the wife is entitled from her husband when the marriage contract is completed or when the marriage is consummated. It is a right which the man is obliged to pay to the woman ( in the case of slaves her dowery is her freedom )

3. Accommodation: This is also one of the wife’s rights, which means that her husband should prepare for her accommodation according to his means and ability. Allaah Almighty Says (what means): “Lodge them [in a section] of where you dwell out of your means and do not harm them in order to oppress them…” [Quran 65: 6]

the most imporatnt thing , that the wife inherit her husband after his death , and her son have his share either from inheritance

jay , when muslim commit adultery he have no responsibilities to give his whore all these rights
islam gave the same rights to slave if her master wnated to intercourse sexualy with her
if any muslim intercoursed sexually with any of his slave without giving her the rights which prescribed to such relation by islam , so absolutly it’s illegal and absolutly it’s adultery
that’s why i considered it to be marriage contract

when i said " kind of marriage " i didn’t mean that it’s not marriage , but the tradition is that when someone want to marry woman he will go to her family and take the permission from her and from her family m if they agreed they will give him the pride to live with him

in the situation of slave , he himself is his master , she allready lives with him and serving him and he deal with her kindly and feed her and dial with her as one of the family according to islamic teachhing ( he just can’t intercourse with her but by the conditions of islam ) so it’s another contract of marriage
that’s why i said that it’s kind of marriage

in these days the marriage wasn’t reguired for someone to go to the church or to the mosque and it dosn’t require for someone to decoument paper of marrige …etc
the marriage was more simple that that , declaration of relation for the people was enough to be marriage contract

to declare my point more clear , plz open th OT and read with me Judges 21: 10- 24

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, **“Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! ** And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.’” ** So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. ** Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

So note, the men hide behind bushes like stalkers, and they wait for the women and once they see the women they rush the women and kidnap them and then basically marry them! This is clear rape
the story refered to them as wives and refered to the intercouse as marriage , but be honest , the words " marriage" and " wife" dosn’t change the fact that it was clear rape not mrraige

What I am getting from all of your post here is that marriage is not the sacramental union between a man and a woman, blessed by God that it is in Christianity. This “marriage” seems to be more worried about material things, inheritance, earthly rights and permissability of sex than the union of two people before God.

Adultery is having sex with someone who is not your wife/husband. God said “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” I don’t care how you dress it up or what excuses you give, adultery is adultery.

But, past slavery issues aside, what I would like to know is:

If any Muslim men today were to capture any female military personnel of any coalition forces in Afghanistan, Iraq, wherever, would they a.) feel justified, as per the Quran, in making these women slaves and having sex with them regardless of their current marital status and b.) would the Muslim community throughout the world support them in this action?

 

[elwill]

What I am getting from all of your post here is that marriage is not the sacramental union between a man and a woman, blessed by God that it is in Christianity. This “marriage” seems to be more worried about material things, inheritance, earthly rights and permissability of sex than the union of two people before God.

Adultery is having sex with someone who is not your wife/husband. God said “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” I don’t care how you dress it up or what excuses you give, adultery is adultery.

But, past slavery issues aside, what I would like to know is:

**If any Muslim men today were to capture any female military personnel of any coalition forces in Afghanistan, Iraq, wherever, would they a.) feel justified, as per the Quran, in making these women slaves and having sex with them regardless of their current marital status and b.) would the Muslim community throughout the world support them in this action?/**QUOTE]

no

 

[ZAKI]

False
how can the invitation to take such number of women as slaves (10 or 100 or 1.000.000) is the help to end slavery ???!!!
don’t you know that Quran rules are current at all !!!
they lie when they says that islam help to end slavery
don’t trust them , review always your fake religion and you’ll see the contrary

AHAAA … so you are proud to slavery free women and transforme them to less than animals
you’re proud when your fake religion legalize PEDOPHELIA
BRAVO and that’s for your honestly directness

ibn khatab was is 22 years old when mohamed died
and what he did is the soul of islam and really you make me laugh man when you says " beside your records have nothing with teaching of islam " ahah
why ?
isen’t slavery is legalized in islam ?
isen’t buying slaves women is legal in islam ?
so what do you refuse exactly !!!
and just take what your mother Aicha said about ibnkhatab

what do you think about what your mother says ?
let’s read more about this islamic personality very revered and respected

ibnomar this man was the best islamicly and the most man who mohamed effect in him

and you say honestly thats my records have nothing with islam teaching !!!
and tell me now
you feel shame right now or not ?

shhh, elwill and jay53 are trying to have a civilised conversations (i.e: without insults, without prejudice and without baseless statements)

wasalam

 

[Korotkov]

No, No, jakasaki. That would be foolish to beat a wife without a serious cause. Please if you read verse of the Quran which advises men to beat their wife, it will be written there that “They disobey and become insolent and out of normal control.” Please do not be afraid of Islam. Islam does not allow any beating without a serious cause. I mean, no Muslim will come home drunk, from the pub and starts abusing and beating his poor wife who had been left in the home. Such things do not happen in Muslim countries.

Hehe, I have one muslim friend and he says you have something in the quran that denies drinking even one drop of alcohol so he takes that one drop of every glass before drinking them. Gotta love that rascal!

NOTE: Having not read the quran I do not know if such verses exist.

 

[ZAKI]

Hehe, I have one muslim friend and he says you have something in the quran that denies drinking even one drop of alcohol so he takes that one drop of every glass before drinking them. Gotta love that rascal!

NOTE: Having not read the quran I do not know if such verses exist.

wasalam

 

[elwill]

shhh, elwill and jay53 are trying to have a civilised conversations (i.e: without insults, without prejudice and without baseless statements)

wasalam

yes zaki
i have to confess that i respect jay and her way in discussions

 

[Paul_89_33]

False
how can the invitation to take such number of women as slaves (10 or 100 or 1.000.000) is the help to end slavery ???!!!
don’t you know that Quran rules are current at all !!!
they lie when they says that islam help to end slavery
don’t trust them , review always your fake religion and you’ll see the contrary

AHAAA … so you are proud to slavery free women and transforme them to less than animals
you’re proud when your fake religion legalize PEDOPHELIA
BRAVO and that’s for your honestly directness

ibn khatab was is 22 years old when mohamed died
and what he did is the soul of islam and really you make me laugh man when you says " beside your records have nothing with teaching of islam " ahah
why ?
isen’t slavery is legalized in islam ?
isen’t buying slaves women is legal in islam ?
so what do you refuse exactly !!!
and just take what your mother Aicha said about ibnkhatab

what do you think about what your mother says ?
let’s read more about this islamic personality very revered and respected

ibnomar this man was the best islamicly and the most man who mohamed effect in him

and you say honestly thats my records have nothing with islam teaching !!!
and tell me now
you feel shame right now or not ?

Up up fpr elwill

 

[Jay53]

yes zaki
i have to confess that i respect jay and her way in discussions

Thank you, elwill. The feeling is mutual.

 

[ZAKI]

yes zaki
i have to confess that i respect jay and her way in discussions

i agree with you here again
p.s: i never knew jay was a she, bcz i have a friend called jay and he is a guy

wasalam

 

[ZAKI]

Up up fpr elwill

as i said before paul, you can insult islam with prejudice, misunderstanding and baseless statements when everybody else is doing it, but when we are trying to have a proper discussion-plz leave it for later

wasalam

 

[elwill]

Up up fpr elwill

we have the words of God in quran and we have the words of prohet in suunah

i didn’t have to even discuss something it was narrated that one of sons of the companions said

i know that you do your best to refute islam but you go so far with your evidence

as i told you before , the massage of islam revealed through 23 years , and islam didn’t deal with slavery from the first day of the massage

 

[elwill]

Thank you, elwill. The feeling is mutual.

thank you jay

by the way , you asked me question about if muslims can intercourse with captives women in these days and my brief answer was " no "

just wanted to add to you that there was verse revealed later in madinah where it says that the intercourse with slaves must to be in marriage contract

4-25 - If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: and God hath full knowledge about your faith. ye are one from another: wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable:** they should be chaste, not lustful**, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. this (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self restraint. and God is oft forgiving, most merciful.

just find that it was important to mention this verse

peace

 

[Paul_89_33]

as i told you before , the massage of islam revealed through 23 years , and islam didn’t deal with slavery from the first day of the massage

unfortuanately you’re not allowed to talking about your fake religion because you’re not able
and islam legalize slavery at all

• the muslim can take women as slaves

[3] If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
4.3
my comment : of course those poor women are just for sex … how can muhamed a prophet and he commond on war and slaving ? where’s women right when ye capture a woman a free woman and transform her to a slave just like an animal or less
and note this : all non muslim women are legalized ti be captured and be slaves for muslim men . you too CA women

• how the muslim can buy the slave woman ?

عن ابن عمر أنه كان إذا اشترى جارية كشف عن ساقها ووضع يده بين ثدييها وعلى عجزها وكأنه كان يضعها عليها من وراء الثياب “.
الراوي: نافع مولى ابن عمر
خلاصة الدرجة: إسناده صحيح
المحدث: الألباني
المصدر: إرواء الغليل
الصفحة أو الرقم: 6/201

the traduction ( by myself)
Omar’s son when he went buy the slave woman he uncorvred her leg and put his hands among her breasts and on her Butt like he put his hands under her clothes
Shame shame shame !!!
and they says that the islam the alone religion glory the woman
so elwill you stay in your opinion or not !!
now you don’t feel shame from your religion ?

• Islam legalise PEDOPHELIA believe or not

4] Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy
65.4
my comment : of course i have no comment i lat the commonts for you

and i’m waiting for a muslim a real muslim able to chasing his religion