Woman on the altar

[ProVobis]

Most deacons would hold the paton during communion. The sub-deacon would stand with folded hands opposite the deacon (other side of the priest.) They can also distribute communion as well (They are a major order, but they would be considered extraordinary ministers). Sub-deacons and on very rare occasions Acolytes were also Extraodinary miniters.

In practical terms today in MOST EF parishes, especially those exclusive EF, deacons do not distribute communion unless there are huge crowds (I would estimate more than 500 people). A deacon has no role a low Mass other than as subbing for an Acolyte.

There were essentially NO permenant deacons before Vatican II. All were in transition to the priesthood so a permanent role for a deacon was not something that was envisioned.

The one permanent deacon distributor at one of the EFs I attend uses a humeral veil to transfer the ciborium from the EF chapel to the church’s tabernacle. Just thought I’d add that bit of info.

 

[grampsc]

Some women are very frivolous on the altar and elsewhere within the Church too. This is not a male versus female thing, it’s just that I don’t like all the distractions within the Church in recent times, it was so much better when only the priest was there. As things stand, I think there should be some kind of dress code for all (male and female) servers upon the altar, and silence should be maintained at all times. I have witnessed some appalling behaviour recently though not always from women.

2 Cor 13:13
Eddy Barry

Eddy yu must be the guy in the row just behind me at our parish. Distractions are rampant as far too many lay people like to get near the altar and act as if they have been ordained. Poor training mixed with egos have created these unacceptable scenes

 

[JReducation]

The last statement is not entirely true. There are Bishops, who are not connected with an ED community, who have used the 1962 books to ordain Sub-deacons and up. The minor orders though were instituted as you say. It is such a shame that they were given over to the laity. It was a great loss to young men who were discerning the priesthood.

This picture has always captivated me, even as a young boy:
http://bp0.blogger.com/_GK9vk5xxaSs/RmnTiNlh7SI/AAAAAAAABNs/MnkTQ-6AmMs/s1600/Minor+Orders.jpg

I’m not aware of bishops who ordain to minor orders outside of the ED communities. Therefore, I will take your word for it. It’s not crime to do so.

The reason for wanting to have uniformity came from Bl. John Paul, not from Vatican II. It was something that he brought from the conventual life, which is not part of the life of congregations and diocesan priests. Only religious orders have conventual life. Only some religious orders are not allowed to have an excess of clerics. However, ,those religious orders are very large.

They instituted, instead of ordained to allow their religious to serve as lectors and acolytes without being clerics. This was to protect their charism from clericalism. You’d be surprised the numbers of men that these communities attract. One that I can think of, the Missionaries of the Poor, have a solemn profession record. They are professing about 50 men a year and they are only about 30 years old. They are allowed to have one cleric for every ten religious. But every religious is a lector and acolyte. The Missionaries of Charity (Mother Teresa’s male congregation) has over 3,000 brothers. Only about 100 are clerics. They deliberately refuse to ordain more than a handful, because Mother did not want a congregation of clerics. The way to get around the lector and acolyte issue was to install them instead or ordain them. This would allow everyone to be a lector and acolyte without being a cleric, which would cause a conflict of interest between the ministry and Mother’s wishes. My point is that the fact that the practice of ordaining these men is not in common use, is not stopping men from entering the religious life or the priesthood.

Men enter communities and dioceses that are faithful to their place in the Church and they avoid those that have problems. What is interesting is that this is turning into the century of the religious brother. There are more men entering to become religious brothers than to become priests. The last that I heard the ratio is 2:1. We seem to be going back to the Middle Ages when this was the case. The last time before that was after the French Revolution. It seems to come in waves.l There are men entering to become priests. Whether they persevere is a matter of wait and see.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Joannm]

D

Just curious, that’s all, as to how many men would feel comfortable setting up for mass and cleaning up afterward, dusting and cleaning up there if the Church suddenly said that females were not to enter the sanctuary ever.

-Tim-

We only have male sacristians in our parish. In fact they are all high school or college age boys. But they don’t go into the tabernacle as usually there is no need to since only what is necessary for the number of people at a particular mass is put into the ciboria. Only a small amount of consecrated hosts are put back in the tabernacle.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

The last statement is not entirely true. There are Bishops, who are not connected with an ED community, who have used the 1962 books to ordain Sub-deacons and up. The minor orders though were instituted as you say. It is such a shame that they were given over to the laity. It was a great loss to young men who were discerning the priesthood.

This picture has always captivated me, even as a young boy:
http://bp0.blogger.com/_GK9vk5xxaSs/RmnTiNlh7SI/AAAAAAAABNs/MnkTQ-6AmMs/s1600/Minor+Orders.jpg

I remember that image and, I do not know why, always depressed me, when I was 6/9 years old.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Woman cannot consecrate hear confession.
All other things are within their reach, hopefully thanks to God.
I went to a ceremony conducted by a Lady in a Far away place, poor of the poorest. Moving…
It was an old lady? I did not notice…

 

[JReducation]

I remember that image and, I do not know why, always depressed me, when I was 6/9 years old.

Really? I always used that picture for CCD to explain the difference between the ministries. The kids find it helpful. I have two copies. One is as is. On the second I whited out the ministries that the Code of 1983 eliminated… It actually helps the kids visualize the change.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[englishredrose]

Eddy yu must be the guy in the row just behind me at our parish. Distractions are rampant as far too many lay people like to get near the altar and act as if they have been ordained. Poor training mixed with egos have created these unacceptable scenes

they will have to be like me then as I now or rather the priest now sits next to ‘us’ as its him who moved his seat on one side of the Altar.

By the way, what are you doing watching the distractions (cough cough) you should be too busy with the service to notice what ‘we’ get up to and yeh the congregation don’t half like to think they know when ‘we’ are wrong etc…

 

[grampsc]

It starts from this:

Is the Mass a sacred rite or is it just a nice commemorative meal with readings?

I put it to you that the latter is now the norm the majority of Roman Catholic churches. As for those who say their local N.O. is very reverent: I suspect we’d disagree as to what counts as reverent.

It doesn’t matter what’s in the rubrics;
It doesn’t matter what it started out to be;
What matters is the symbolism.

Women in the the holy place;
Women reading from the pulpit;
Women distributing Communion;
All in street clothes.
People being doled out the sacred matter in a queue;
The rite read out as a speech directed to the attendees;

Etc. etc.

The common thread?
The mundane injected into the sacred, thus nullifying that idea.

I think a great many people on this forum are wasting the energy of their lives trying to defend these things. Another 40 years of apologia won’t change a thing. You won’t even bat an eyelid when the latest novelty manifests: it will all seem perfectly normal.

The Mass used to be a lesson in itself; solemnity, latin, incense, chant, icons, exclusivity …
**
Now you get people prating “We need more cathecesis!” when the latest dumb thing rears its unlovely head.**

However: a glimmer of hope. Pope Benedict is making some very interesting moves if you look at everything he’s doing as whole.

Thank you for this very correct interpretation of modern day church, in America, it is NOT this way everywhere, our Bishops are becoming more enlightened as younger very post Vatican 2 take positions of leadership and the golf and dollar counters retire, thanks for their service but they took a much too easy path. Only one mans opinion.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I think in the old days, the only times that women were allowed on the altar was when they were being sacrificed. At least that’s how the Aztecs used to do it.

 

[Padraig1972]

Liberalism and disobedience depresses me. If people were equally interested in staying true and listening to the church rather than pull things apart and directly defy the church, our beloved church would be in a much better-stronger state.

One man`s opinion.

 

[archangel04]

ED communities?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Really? I always used that picture for CCD to explain the difference between the ministries. The kids find it helpful. I have two copies. One is as is. On the second I whited out the ministries that the Code of 1983 eliminated… It actually helps the kids visualize the change.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

What we do as adults is one thing. What the child feels is another thing.
For years, we went to Sunday Afternoon drive with our kids to show them the landscape around.
Now, as adults, they say that those trips were depressing for it made them remember that next day they had classes…
Too late to correct. Now ther are 26 and 23.

 

[shagun]

There are Masses. Jesus Christ is what matters. It does not matter whether the Mass is blue, yellow, green or red.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

I think that picure is great. ‘A picture is worth a thousand words’. It’s educational. Also interesting are the illustrations on the leaflets the local Latin Mass Society doles out at its mass. I guess they’re photocopied from an old missal. Really detailed.

Why they illustrated my Good News Bible(?) as a child with these faceless line drawings I’ll never know. They’re horribly dated, now. I guess that’s what being fashionable gets you: in 10 years, it’s old hat. I remember disliking that they were faceless.

 

[TimothyH]

Hi Tim,

In extrodinary form parishes NO ONE who did not have consecrated hands would EVER be allowed to touch the sacred species. The ONLY exception I have EVER seen is with acolytes and they must put on white gloves to handle even the chalices or ciboria.

The function of lighting the candles and making the church ready was traditionally the function of the porter, one of the minor orders. You will not see a real porter outside of an Extrodinary form community due to the minor orders being given to the laity. In my extrordinary form parish only the Altar servers (we have one ordained acolyte) light the candles. They do so before Mass, along with removing the protective linen on top of the three linens. (Not all church’s do this). The servers then place the missal with stand on the epistle side of the altar, prepare the credence table, put the hand missal on the ambo with page marker/bookmark on the correct page for the day.

Depending on the day there may be more or less to do. I.E. Requiem Mass they would put out the six candlesticks for the the casket and replace the candles with pure beeswax, replace any colored clothes on the antipendium with black (if an antipendium cloth is used), etc.

You see servers in the traditional Mass do a lot more than in the N.O. It is also one of the reasons, I believe, why we have so many servers. There is so much for them to do, at least at a High Mass. Solemn High Mass so of these duties are properly done by the sub-deacon and deacon.

A scaristan is traditionally a male in the seminary who would preform these duties. Since the reforms of Vatican II and the elimination of minor orders, many of which were given in the home parish, has seen these duties transferred to the laity. It is an unfortunate change. It no longer allows the community to actively see and support those young men who are just begining their discernment. We are now relegated to pictures on a poster of the seminarians for the diocese.

Given that sacristans are now mostly lay, my question still stands.

Would men be willing?

My experience is that most sacristans today are female.

-Tim-

 

[Diana_Catherine]

It starts from this:

Is the Mass a sacred rite or is it just a nice commemorative meal with readings?

I put it to you that the latter is now the norm the majority of Roman Catholic churches. As for those who say their local N.O. is very reverent: I suspect we’d disagree as to what counts as reverent.

It doesn’t matter what’s in the rubrics;
It doesn’t matter what it started out to be;
What matters is the symbolism.

Women in the the holy place;
Women reading from the pulpit;
Women distributing Communion;
All in street clothes.
People being doled out the sacred matter in a queue;
The rite read out as a speech directed to the attendees;

Etc. etc.

The common thread?
The mundane injected into the sacred, thus nullifying that idea.

I think a great many people on this forum are wasting the energy of their lives trying to defend these things. Another 40 years of apologia won’t change a thing. You won’t even bat an eyelid when the latest novelty manifests: it will all seem perfectly normal.

The Mass used to be a lesson in itself; solemnity, latin, incense, chant, icons, exclusivity …
**
Now you get people prating “We need more cathecesis!” when the latest dumb thing rears its unlovely head.**

However: a glimmer of hope. Pope Benedict is making some very interesting moves if you look at everything he’s doing as whole.

You’re right, the more of the mundane you add, the less sacred it becomes and unfortunately generations of Catholics won’t know what their missing. Which has already happened.

Unless and hopefully, IMHO, what is is being seen are younger priests coming up and they are not interested in all that “spirit” of Vatican II stuff and are bringing changes, some returning of the sacred and I agree, too Pope Benedict is doing some great things,too.

 

[grampsc]

I’ll tell you why.

Because they’re distracting and unnecessary. Same as men in civilian clothes being up there, but with added distraction of them being women, who, in the past, weren’t up there in any form.

It’s come to something when The Holy Sacrifice Of The Mass is punctuated by civilians in their street clothes reading from the lectern, in reedy voices while the priest sits and listens. And lets not forget the distribution of Communion.

Bonkers.

Makes me sad, really, that, because of a misreading of a document, the whole Church thinks it’s got to let lay people into the Holy Of Holies. I think it shows we’ve lost a sense of the sacred, big time.

Bravo Roger, in few words you said it all.

 

[floresco]

Given that sacristans are now mostly lay, my question still stands.

Would men be willing?

My experience is that most sacristans today are female.

In my local parish, there are male sacristans. I never got the impression of reluctance from men to serve the Church this way.

 

[Big_Feet]

You know, I am pretty sure that it was never expressly forbidden as a matter of dogma, or even doctrine, for women, or for that matter, laity in general, to participate in certain aspects of the sacred liturgy.

Maybe women and the rest of the laity participating in the liturgical functions of the Church is just a matter of the Church filling out its mandate from God, and “spreading it’s wings” so to speak? If it is merely a “discipline” of the Church, we must understand that that CAN change.